I am concerned for the LBH who is willing to settle, just so long as his W won't leave him. He holds the hope that things will work themselves out (false therory) or that in time the R will be "normal" (?) again.
This was discussed in the previous WW threads, about not letting her come back too quickly. Without repeating myself too much, I just want to tell newcomers that your M problems are not resolved on there own. Think of an alka-seltzer in a glass of water. First, the "plop-plop, fizz-fizz, oh what a relief it is". If left alone, it settles down, right? Yes, but the alka-seltzer is still there in the water. If undestrubbed, it will eventually settle to the bottom, just waiting to be stirred up again. That's the picture of what to expect if the LBH settles for being plan B.
Last edited by sandi2; 08/01/1503:45 PM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Great stuff here, Sandi... love the alka seltzer analogy. It's been just about three months since BD for me, and it's only the past couple of weeks that I've been able to shift towards embracing this focus on myself, and come to accept fully (with my heart as well as my head) that the old relationship is dead. Her coldness, her resolute insistence that we are done, her claims that I wasn't the right one for her - I was surprised last night at my detachment from these comments, comments that used to hurt so much. I looked at her yesterday and DID NOT want her, or to be with her. Her self-absorption repulses me. By seeing her this way, it helped me grasp her point of view, and it underscored the need for us both to change - first, for us each to be better people, and also if there is to be any hope for R down the road. I will NOT be plan B.
Only three months in - as you say, an affair will usually last quite a bit longer, and I suppose especially if she's moved out and perceives the OW as her new partner. 6 months? 9? Years? It takes a lot of patience and perseverance. But if our love is really love - tough love, selfless love, sacrificial love - we can do it. If we want to.
Me: 46 Her: 41 M: 5.5 yrs / S: 20, 18 3/26 W and I meet OW BD: 5/2/2015, she takes off ring W goes to stay with OW 6/26 NC: 9/5 Both moved out: 10/16 I take off my ring and feel... healed: 10/19
Thanks for your input, Different. The WW or WAW is really not what the LBS wants, but rather the person she use to be. Doesn't mean the LBS won't hurt just as much, or stop loving her. I have learned much through the painful experiences of LBS's.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks this is what I needed today. I'm ready for her to leave the house if it didn't involve the kids at all. I do know I wont be the one running away from her choosing to do what she is doing.
Thank you Sandi, my thoughts and prayers still include you and your family. Your generosity to this board is extensive and sincerely appreciated. Thank you!
I've been mulling over the question of why we LBS's insist upon doing something and feel that doing nothing equals the death of our M's. I have likened it to this situation. This is my own experience.
As an LBS, I felt like I was sitting in a room that was suddenly set ablaze on BD day. I could see the flames, smell the smoke and feel the burn. It was real. It was visceral, experiential, and REAL. No one could tell me that the room wasn't on fire, every one of my 5 senses told me otherwise. I had to DO something to put that fire out. Thinking calm thoughts, meditating, writing, finding solace in spiritual texts, working out, crying...none of it touched the fire. None of it.
The only that seemed to make the fire diminish was direct communication with my W. A text that responded to with a "love W" instead of just a "yes" made it seem like the flames were going down, or at least their was a possibility that they may some day go out. So I sent 200 texts.
When I was writing emails, letters and more explaining how I knew I had made the room more flammable in my M - but now I was "Johnny Flame Retardant" - it made it seem like we could live back in that room, calm, cool and collected. She just needed a few more reminders. Or stronger ones. Cool as a cucumber I was now, I just had to paint the right picture. I had to DO something about this room, that was still up in flames - and show my W that I was doing something. My gut instinct, the very thing that had kept me alive for 40 years was telling me the more I did, the more the flames would go out.
It was only coming onto this board and heard from vets, talked to people that had also been in the same room that I realized that the more frenzied activity I put in, the more it stoked the fire. AND, the fire wasn't real. It just felt real. Nothing is real. I wasn't getting burned, it just felt like it was. It felt like I was, but when I kept waking up each morning still alive it couldn't have been real.
It wasn't until I came on here and Cadet and the vets told me that if I just STFU and Sat TF down that the flames would go out by themselves, or at least I would see they weren't what I thought they were.
Not only would the fire go out by itself, but I actually need and can use the heat to alchemize myself into the man I'm supposed to be. And the longer I sat in the hot room (as long as I did the work,) the better I would be at the end of it. With my W or without her.
But, oh my lord, is that a lesson that can't be understood rationally. OH MY LORD is it a lesson that has to be swallowed one ounce at a time. Then thrown up, then swallowed again until it stays down.
To this day Sandi, I still wake up in a panic over being back in that room. 8 months later I can still smell smoke when I'm out in town. I still check my phone to see if maybe "someone" is going to tell me the fire is out and not only have I survived, but I'm allowed to go back in there and start repairing the damage. My gut still screams to DO something about it despite the time, energy, and hard earned lessons to the contrary.
Doing nothing seemed like emotionally burning to death (not to be overly dramatic...), but it did. Doing something seemed like the only available survival option. Doing anything for that matter. Otherwise the whole damn house was going to catch fire.
Cadet told me the house no longer existed...it disappeared the day she left. Poof, gone. No more worry about the flames spreading. Now use them. Time to alchemize.
Now I get it. The more I ran around like a chicken with no head, the higher the flames rose and the more they pushed my W away. Still a bit of a mind (censored) though.
Big hug to you and Wonka for this thread and to everyone it helps. You're both invaluable assets to al of us on here. All of the vets are.
M 39 W 36 T5 M3 BD - 1/15 Separated - Same Day Served 9/15 D finalized 6/17
Question for you sandi. You were a WAS. What made you realise that walking away was a mistake and how long in to the process did you start thinking?
I know every sitch is different, but it may help some of us.
I have been asked that question several times, and it's difficult to give a short answer. I think I was in the A for about a year. I can't remember some of the time factors, regarding how long it took before I started thinking about it being a mistake. It was the actual moving out and leaving town that I saw being my biggest hurdle. I thought one had to include the other (too long to explain). Part of the craziness of a WW. It was about two years before I really felt remorse for my actions, and that was with the help I was receiving. I used to not tell it b/c it was discouraging to newcomers, but now I think maybe they need a more realistic timeframe in mind. Bear in mind, however, everyone is not on the same timetable.
I talk a lot about "timing" b/c I believe good and bad timing plays a significant part in everything in life. A WW or WAW has to go through what I call a process, where certain things take place and the timing falls into place to have its greatest influence in swaying her decisions.
I had began seeing a few cracks in the OM's armor. I was seeing that I could not support myself or rely on the OM to support me. Sure, he was willing for me to stay with him, but I had health issues and needed insurance, etc. (Remember, a WW is going to think of her own needs!). I didn't like the answer he gave me when I brought up the issue. "Just come on and we'll worry about that after you get here". I may have been crazy but I wasn't completely stupid! If I had been a lot younger, I may not have taken it as seriously. Anyway, his statement was about the third time something caused a little warning bell to go off in my head..........that I would admit to myself. (I wanted him to be knight in shinning armor. ) Other things were slowly falling down around me, too, but I won't go into everything.
One day my adult D told me she knew everything. She had been at my house and found my computer history. That is when reality really hit me hard. Everything I had taught my children, the role model I had been to them, the religious beliefs and moral standards I had tried to instill...........all were shouting hypocrite to my face. It is not a position I would wish on any mother......or daughter.
I "accidentally" found my way to the DB board. I discovered it was primarily designed for the person who wanted to save their M. I wasn't at all sure I wanted to stay with my H. I just wanted someone to talk to me about my stitch. Thankfully, I got the very best that the board had at that time. At least, the best to be talking to this old WW. What they said was straight, hard, facts of life. They told it like it was, and I love them b/c of it. I listened........b/c the timing was right. Before that night, I would not have been listening to anyone.
Even after I ended the A, and decided to "stick it out" in the M, I was not remorseful. I had so much resentment in my heart, and a bitter attitude. I may have made the right decision but I still felt the rebellion. I tried. I prayed. I went through months of hellish withdrawal. I prayed that God would help me feel remorse and let go of the resentment. I was so very depressed and suffered panic attacks, missed so much work I almost lost my job, and every area of my life went downhill. One thing I did do........I kept coming here every night. I would be here until I could no longer hold my eyes open. And in many ways, it was my salvation.
It took nearly two years of unrest and no peace before I was finally able to go to my H with my pride stipped, and a broken heart for the destruction I had caused. Two years!! And that was me being here on this board and reading everything I could find about WW's. A woman does not have to leave the home or her M to be wayward, or to be a WAW. It is an act of the heart.
I know how cold and ugly a WW's heart can become. I also know it is possible to change. It takes time for some things to take place. There is a time for all things.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Suppose you were a LBH and your WW had moved out, had a series of A's, and finalized a D.
Knowing what you know...is that something you'd be able to forgive should she be open to R? How long do you think you'd be able to wait to see if things ever turned around?
My D's almost final and I have some of my own answers on this. I know everyone has their own lines on when they close the door to R, what boundaries are unforgivable in the sense of not being able to brush them aside and recommit to an M, etc. I'm just wondering what yours would be.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Your post is very much appreciated, PP. And thank you for the prayers!
Do you have a suggestion in how to communicate with newcomer LBH'S that what they see as putting out fires doesn't work?
I believe everything you said about the male gut instinct. It has been his reaction to crises over the years. Only this time, he has a stitch like he's not experienced, and it calls for a new kind of "action", which may appear as not doing anything........until he tries it.
I hear over and over how hard it is to follow the rules. Yet, aren't the rules describing the very person he was before he got started getting serious about the girl he was dating? At least, that's the way men used to be. If they hit as hard and fast as a LBH'S tries to come on to his W.........any gal would run for the hills, b/c it turns her cold. That is what I want guys to understand. To stop acting like a jilted H who is running after a woman who has dumped him. It is not attractive, and just b/c he is M to her, does not make it attractive.
He has to return to a similar mindset of his early years before M. He rediscovers his masculinity, his confidence, his inner strength, decisiveness, self-respect, bravery, leadership, etc. In most of the stories I remember, somewhere after M the LBH'S would lose some of those traits. Something caused her to lose respect for him, and then one thing leads to another.
Again, thanks for your support.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Suppose you were a LBH and your WW had moved out, had a series of A's, and finalized a D.
Knowing what you know...is that something you'd be able to forgive should she be open to R? How long do you think you'd be able to wait to see if things ever turned around?
My D's almost final and I have some of my own answers on this. I know everyone has their own lines on when they close the door to R, what boundaries are unforgivable in the sense of not being able to brush them aside and recommit to an M, etc. I'm just wondering what yours would be.
The first thing is to know how long it has been since her last contact with any of her AP's or any possible new OM. If it has not been at least six months......I would not even consider reconciling yet, b/c she's not serious.
Has she changed her behavior, attitude, treatment of you, etc.?
For me, she would have to be more than just "open to R". She would have to be willing to meet the conditions to have a healthy and trusting MR again. If she balks at "conditions", she's not ready.
I would need to see her show remorse, before I reconciled with her. If I was the H, I suppose one thing I couldn't forgive, would be her blaming me for her behavior and not being sorry for the destruction she caused everyone . As long as she has that attitude of blame and no remorse, her heart has not changed. That attitude rules everything in her and sooner, or later, bad things will come through.
Based on what I know about WW's, the toughest boundaries I would hold would be no lies or secrets, no show of disrespect, and no acts of rebellion. IMO, these are the tell-tale signs. If she breaks any of these, she opens the door to the same old problems. If she resists the transparency and claims it is controlling or she has no privacy, that is where the LBH should say, "I'm done". She is not ready and not serious about doing the necessary work.
The main issue with the stitch you've described is that the WW is a serial cheater.......or has continued to bounce from man to man before ever reconciling after the first A. . There could be underlying issues directing her, and more than likely some serious therapy needed to help her. Serial cheating is a ship load of waywardness, or some kind of deeply hidden issues.
For me, I would not enter into a committed R, again, until I saw some solid evidence that she is getting consistsnt therapy and responding in a positive manner. She would have to agree with my terms to a transparency plan that would help her stay on the straight & narrow. In addition to her own therapy, there would need to be M and/or family therapy, to heal and to know how not to repeat past mistakes. I would definitely make my conditions for a R known, if she was wanting to reconcile. If she isn't willing to meet those conditions in order to get back together, she sure won't do it afterwards.
She would need to prove herself, before just taking her back........and even before dating her again. As she shows how earnest she is, by her behavior, I would put forth more effort in the friendship. This is the time to have a friendship before a dating or MR.
What I have observed are men who are too eager to R and take her back without her doing the work. Then he jumps right into having sex with her (without even having STD test) and everything has started out of order, so it's easier for her to backslide again.
As for the forgiveness, that is such a personal and even religious action that it would be very difficult to draw a line for another person. I would think a series of affairs would be extremely tough to forgive, but even harder to live the forgivness on a daily bases. It's not being able to forget and get over that betrayal that harms the chance of a new M. If the betrayed cannot trust the former cheater after seeing obvious effort from her over a period of time......then he would need to get help or move on. You cannot have a healthy M built on mistrust. I stress "time" b/c neither of you should expect this to come quickly or without a lot of work.
How long? Longer than you think.
I'm sure I am leaving out something, but that's what comes to mind ATM.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
