h2++

[Pyrite]

hey Z,

My grandmother on one side ws always the peacekeeper in the family. She was the ONLY one who could reign in her daughter. After she died (15 years ago), my aunty started exercising her "dead to me list" with abandon. Massive irreparable and heartbreaking terrible rifts started appearing in the family. She even ex-communicated her own single child. She has donee the same with her "friends".
15 years later she has very few people left.

THEY didn't conform to her standards. What she believed was "reasonable", THEY didn't. As a 3rd party it is easy too see that HER version of "reasonable" is warped. I have always been amazed that she genuinely believes it is everyone else who is being "unreasonable".

Anyway, not saying that you would fall into this trap, nor even that your "list" means that you just won't even bother maintaining "A" R with those on the list. My aunty is still civil to a degree if those on her list make contact with her, but she never initiates contact. Those listed eventually tire of it and drop off.

Personally, I have had a similar list at different times in my life. I went 3-4 years and only spoke to my father a handful of times. Prompted by other circumstances I later decided to move in with him. I avoided discussing anything that basically put him on my list in the first place.It wasn't easy as the list of topics NOT to discuss with him grew.

Years later, through my M "depression", he was back on the list - but angrily. In the past few months I have gone back to being "friends" with him. I still have a list of things I would rather not discuss with him, but I have found it is even easier to deal with these things by simply listening and validating and not even trying to (most times) "correct" him.

After I do see him (often enduring frustrating, know-it-all remarks) I know that he has enjoyed our conversation. I feel better for having NOT said anything, MUCH better, stronger and in control. Like not sending an angry email to WAS and the next day being very grateful for it.

The line you cross to doormat status is another issue. I know I do consciously validate as if I was someone else in these situations. Later I can use this more objectively to analyse what made it annoying or unreasonable to my way of thinking, and put it into perspective. i.e. Their "opinion/attitude" is "dead to me" in the sense that it doesn't affect my "opinion/attitude". They didn't change me, and I am through with trying to change them. Still, the person is not dead to me.

You can choose your friends, but not your family, WAS included. Doesn't mean your family also have to be your friends as well.

[Zues126]

Thanks Py. I agree with about all of this. Some things that spring to mind after reading:

1. 'Dead to me' is a bit of a joke. No one is really dead to me. I bear no one ill will, and I simply enact boundaries to keep distance from people I don't feel need to be close to me. I'm not suggesting you didn't understand this, but I wanted to clarify.

2. Warped versions of reasonable. Very good point. I think my guideline has always been the test of "is it only me or everyone"? In other words, if I have a problem with someone, and NO ONE else does, I am inclined to look hard at myself. On the other hand if everyone else I know has the same problem with that person, then I feel a bit validated that it's not all me. I think in general I am pretty reasonable as I DO have a good list of friends I am close with, a good relationship with both of my parents, etc. So it's not that NO ONE can live up to my standards of what I feel comfortable with. I just know what they are. This doesn't mean I'm done exploring that topic, or growing in some ways to make that more flexible, etc. Just where I'm at today.

3. Shades of grey. You're right, it's not black and white. You mentioned maintaining SOME type of relationship with others. I definitely do that. The only time I've ever really done a 'dead to me' was with someone that was borderline crazy and dangerous, other than that I am always civil and conversational, and in some cases we can have casual friendships where we get together occasionally or have semi-superficial time together. So I can definitely do that, it's not like it's all or nothing.

4. Family. Agreed, my family is my family. When I said my sister was 'dead to me', again...I saw her at Easter, and we made some small talk, that's fine. I just am not interested in making plans with her or having heart to hearts about stuff like this. I'm good with that.

All in all, I think I should change the framing of this conversation from "is it healthy to have a 'dead to me' list", and instead have more of a conversation about what effective boundaries are and what productive conflict looks like.

I think I'm doing a lot of things right, however I also know I have room to grow in this department as well. Thanks for your input!

[gan]

DISCLAIMER: Haven't read the above - so apologies if you've just said something serious and are in need of something more than I'm about to give.

But...wanted to let you know I just had a good laugh courtesy of you, Zues, en route to midweek GAL (drinks with a friend). I just past a restaurant called Hannibal. The slogan was something about how unique the food was. I bet it is!!! What a poor choice for a restaurant name! They probably don't shy away from cheating either

Will catch up on the above later.

[Pyrite]

hey Z,

your pointers?? I am feeling like whoa I am pretty OK with this now - now what. as you were a few months back - but I am feeling ......flat. numb. i am looking forward to a future, but really I am pushing that so far away it is like a dream.

I am betting you know how I feel so I would value your input here.

-Py

[Bob723]

Hello Z,

I just wanted to stop by and say "Hello!" and let you know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. I haven't forgotten about you.

I haven’t been online too much lately and I’ve been trying to catch up on your situation. You are doing a lot of things right, and it seems others agree with me, too.

Please keep a PMA, don’t give up and keep moving forward. Way to go!

Your friend,

Bob

[Zues126]

Gan: Thanks for cheering me up. Yes, horrible name for a restaurant. What was their motto, "It tastes like chicken"?

Bob: Thanks for your participation in the boards. I vote you the DB mascot. You put a little wind in everyone's sails. I'm glad to see you've found some comfort with us.

Py: I'm not sure what to say. I posted something on Jelly's thread that is kinda interesting and relates to things we've talked about. But I didn't really know what I could offer. Can you tell me a little more specifically what's on your mind? Maybe throw a question or two my way? I tend to ramble anyway, hoping I can be more coherent if I'm given a topic

Hang in all in DB land!

[Pyrite]

You have my vote Bob

Z - I can't think of a specific question. I'm just tired. I want to hold my W. I want her to hold me. I'm tired of being strong. I am not saying that I give up, or I won't keep on. I am just tired.

[SunnyB]

Zeus, just had the sudden urge to check in on you. Hope all is well.

[PigPen]

Me too Z, hope you're continuing to thrive and work towards your goals.

How are you?

PP

[Zues126]

Hey Sunny, Pig, and all DB!

Gosh, what's been going on? Hm. Nothing much happened since our first mediation session. I'm scheduling a follow up with my L to figure out what to do from here. Personally I am pretty close to just bringing this to court, I feel like dealing with WAS/L is a complete waste of time. I know mediation is better for the family because we get to have more gentle influence in sensitive situations, but that's only true if we can come to agreements and it seems I am dealing with a pretty nasty ex. I'm just SO ready to be divorced from this person. I know it's just a piece of paper, but at this point I feel it is protection from being harassed. Seriously, tell me the dollar amount of the check I have to write to get this crazy vindictive woman to leave me alone. That's where I'm at on that front. I didn't go into details on what all has happened I realize, but it just seems like I'm a bear trying to hibernate that keeps getting woken up because someone is poking me with a sharp stick. I keep trying to go back to sleep, but I feel like I'm getting close to my breaking point.

But I realize I need to detach further yet. I feel like I'm 100% fine with having her out of my life forever, but I'm having a harder time with having her in my life and being so nasty to me constantly. It doesn't seem fair that I should be sentenced to dealing with this person for the rest of my life. But I am confident that I'll reach a point when I just laugh at her harassment and it won't get me angry. I know that's on me. I'm still a work in progress. Talked to my IC today about it, he basically said I was human and should get mad about some of this, but then it's a matter of where I went from there. I've been validating my emotions, then steering back to compassion, forgiveness, and detachment, because that's where I want to live. Hopefully each time it gets easier, and eventually as the D is final and another year passes it gets easier yet.

My goals are going so-so. I'm not losing weight, but am still getting to the gym a few times a week. So I'm not defeated, just haven't gotten it done. Work is going really well, it's month 9 of my sales gig and I'm starting to feel really good about it. I NEED to win, $ will solve many of my problems right now. I am being a great dad, I've had some super good times with the kids and am starting to work 1:1 with them on some things they need help with emotionally. And I'm staying on top of laundry, dishes, and bills for the most part, keeping the place clean. So overall I'd give myself a B on the goals.

I've been scarce because of GAL, I've hung out with friends a few times this week, last weekend I played a pool tournament and had a good time, etc. Times are busy but that's good, if I don't line up activities I just lay in bed and curl into a ball because things are a bit overwhelming. Just a few more months and the D will be final one way or another, and my job will hopefully continue to get more automated.

Thanks for thinking of me, talk more soon!