Interesting convo going on over here. I totally get where you are coming from Zues......though I've started to wonder if the alternative view points might actually be more useful:
We can waiver in our vows We are all capable of cheating Divorce is always an option (I think I read that on Edz' thread)
In some ways I feel that by acknowledging these viewpoints, one is more likely to take actions to ensure they don't occur. Whereas a simple belief that the alternative is true....well, now I am most likely headed for D....so my belief that it wasn't an option was clearly wrong.
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
As for standing firm, you know, I appreciate you saying that.
Good. I don't think Paul joked much about standing firm either, as it is a phrase he often used in his letters, so maybe you should think about that.
-PM
I can't tell if I'm being reprimanded. There wasn't much joking anywhere in the New Testament but I don't take that to mean I can't have a sense of humor. I found it funny that when you told me to stand firm I was so quick to say "hm, he's got a point, I should change my style", because by doing that I was demonstrating more of the same eagerness to accommodate others. If you don't find that funny you don't have to laugh, but I do. Either way, standing more firm is a huge reminder to me and something I will give more consciousness to. Thank you.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Interesting convo going on over here. I totally get where you are coming from Zues......though I've started to wonder if the alternative view points might actually be more useful:
We can waiver in our vows We are all capable of cheating Divorce is always an option (I think I read that on Edz' thread)
In some ways I feel that by acknowledging these viewpoints, one is more likely to take actions to ensure they don't occur. Whereas a simple belief that the alternative is true....well, now I am most likely headed for D....so my belief that it wasn't an option was clearly wrong.
Hey Gan! I realize everyone will look at this a little differently, and I think if this outlook helps others it makes perfect sense.
Going back to standing firm on my beliefs, I am not worried about me breaking my vows, cheating, or getting a divorced. No more than I'm worried about becoming a cannibal. Sure, you could draw up some survival story that is hypothetical and extreme, but in reality it will simply never happen. I certainly am not worried about looking at myself as a "potential cannibal" to avoid putting myself in those situations. For me that's just not a concern. Others might be skeptical, but that is between them and their maker, and their own commitment. I know what I know.
Now, I will remember that cheating and divorce is an option for most people. My goal will be to have compassion for them and their struggles, and to avoid being naive thinking a M is invulnerable. I have no room to devote emotions to being judgmental or righteous towards others that have initiated a D, compassion and forgiveness is where I'd like to get to (it's still intermittent for me, I have flashes of disgust for those that have). And definitely I will treat my M as very vulnerable as I know the possibility of cheating and divorce is a reality in the world we live in, and I want to do my part to avoid a situation that makes that easier for a future partner. But ultimately it is always their choice, and I will forgive myself as well for the inevitable mistakes I make and have made.
Again, I am not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking on this. But this is definitely how I feel on the topic. It isn't "right". It's just who I am. Just as I trust you all to have a good grip on who you are and what you believe. I think the common ground is mutual respect for the fact we all value M, are thoughtful, and are doing our best to live the way we feel we should. Thank you for helping me sort through this.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I simply meant to make sure you are taking what I said seriously and to heart.
-PM
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Let's face it. We are all humans with natural sexual urges and needs.
Say....I am happily married with a beautiful wife.
Then I get stranded on a desert island for 10 years with Cindy Crawford for company. There's no contest right there that I'd be able to stand behind the line in the sand with my arms behind my back smiling at her. No way. Ten freakin' years on an island with Cindy right in my face and I can't touch her??
No way!
Why else do some prisoners have sex in prison? I am not talking about rape here. Some do have sex to relieve their blue balls (or whatever it is you men have).
Just keeping things in proper perspective.
Now, let me stand up here and say that I am a strong proponent of marriage. I get what you and PM are saying here. Totally.
Z if I may be so bold ...... You (and I) are being self-righteous.
Nobody considers themselves in the (potential) cheater camp. My W has always and still does consider herself a person who would never cheat. My W absolutely does not consider that she cheated. Breaking vows, til "death do us part", I don't recall "or at least until D is finalised" being part of these vows. So any R is in breach of your vow. what if you re-marry - holy crap - where do the vows stand then?
My W absolutely does not consider that she cheated. We didn't have the "paperwork" to say the M was over, but we were S, and the M was realistically over. Whilst I see it as an EA pre-BD was definitely going on (as do most people, even Sandi a former WW herself now objectively lays out the mindset and events), W absolutely disagrees that this was anything more than a supportive friend.
Maybe, she will one day admit to being flattered/seduced etc as was so obviously happening - but she has erected this whole story to remain one of those people in the no cheater camp. So people are or are not capable of "cheating", they are capable of justifying.
So where do we raw this line - basically the same question, but from another perspective. I (and you) admit that we certainly provided the impetus towards making this justification possible. All those extreme examples of canibalism, they are just questions of "would this be justification to committee act".
But what I am saying is that for my WAW, she never did commit that act as far as she is concerned. Was she justified to cry on the shoulder of a friend. Of course this is always valid.
Also consider these vows as above - does God consider D as a valid dissolution of the contract. Is death the only out. Where does it say death of only one S is required. Orthodox women NEVER remarry. They wear black and scared for the rest of their lives. Hindu women are EXPECTED to throw themselves on their H's funeral fire and burn with them (although now outlawed in MODERN India).
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
My last post sums it up perfectly. I truly all of your rights to have your own opinions and beliefs. I remain very clear on this subject for myself.
To Wonka, as I said, I can concoct situations that don't occur in our daily lives as extremes as I could with cannibalism, murder, etc. But in my real life that won't occur.
Py, if I were judging harshly those who felt differently I would agree. I am not. Everyone is free to choose their own path.
As for when it's ok to have another R, again...we don't need to over-complicate this and present it as if there are so many shades of grey absolutes can't exist. The world isn't black and white, that doesn't mean values don't exist. For me, I didn't initiate a D, I didn't cheat, I am not going to be with another woman for years. If the D my WAW initiated is signed and years go by and she's remarried and that door is closed, I will sleep like a baby as I move into a new R. To me that doesn't conflict with the fact I would never have chosen this road, and never will in the future.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
hey Z - I understand that you are not judging "them". I am suggesting there is no "them".
absolutely shades of grey. cheat or no cheat is either end of the spectrum. The spectrum being all that greyness in between. where you might point to in that spectrum changes, but more importantly what I am saying is that the spectrum itself changes.
the spectrum we are holding up to them is cheat or no cheat - and where do they fit in. on this same spectrum they see themselves firmly in the no cheat zone. to maintain themselves in the no cheat zone they kept altering their "justifiable" spectrum.
this is all getting to be like what I imagine "The Glass Bead Game" would be like. (Excellent book BTW - 12 years to write, almost as long to read).
I'm not arguing Z - just considering viewpoints myself.
M: 6 T: 12 Kids: 2,4 BD: Jan 2015 S: Feb 2015 EA/PA confirmed: Feb2015/Mar2015
I think its great to discuss different viewpoints. Even if at the end of the day we maintain our separate views we can analyze the negatives and positives each may have. This can give us a better understanding of why we think a specific way, questioning ourselves. That is one major reason we are here, mirror work. Sometimes it takes another perspective to see a clearer image in that mirror. Like Zues said before, one belief isn't necessarily wrong or right, its more important how it helps the individual. Good discussions
Accept what is, let go of what was, and have faith in what will be
