Abuse from a partner is not fixed through DR

[Vanilla]

This is a very interesting discussion Cadet.

MLC abuse strikes me as situational. The individual is transiting a life crisis and as a consequences exhibits abusive behaviour. Most often once the MLC abates the abuse is gone.

The type of abuse that I experienced is the result of a controlling personality and that is unlikely to ever change. These types of Abusers move from one victim to another. This is a control issue not a crisis issue.

It occurs as a result of personality not situational. It is very hard for this type of abuser to change. They abuse because it achieves the result they need, control. They generally charm then abuse and repeat this cycle.

There are several levels of abusive behaviour and with this type of abuser there is escalation as they require more control. It is not always physical abuse but there is a definitive cycle. With a consistent escalation. It is deliberate and patterned. It repeats and it is predictable. It doesn't start suddenly in midlife, it begins from childhood and is lifelong. These abuses blame those they abuse and it is in their interest to have a source of narcissist supply. In other words the abuse makes the abuser feel good and better about themselves. When thwarted the abuser will often lash or intimidate to get what they need. They may even have a midlife crisis as well!

Abusers often use alcohol as a choice to excuse abuse, that too is control. They may also have addictions, and self control issues.

DB is many things, in and of itself it is that which works, providing and giving access to resources to assist in that growth, personal development and to repair marriage and relationships. It has it's philosophy and club rules. I agree Cadet that it is a Peer to Peer group, with the wisdom of crowds.

There are some situations, abuse, compulsion and addiction that require additional resources extra to DB. Abuse counselling is available but often that requires an initial acknowledgement of the abuse. A recognition of it in the sitch is essential, either by self discovery or by uncovering it through the process of DB and the discussions that follow. For me that was very traumatic and dramatic.

I am sure that with hindsight this is clear. There is a chain process through which we in peer to peer patterning help each other. I do read MLC threads and rarely do I see this escalation and pattern abuse.

Do I see abuse in many MLC sitches? Yes, I do, situational abuse, MLC starts and abuse begins, some awful behaviours too, denial of As, ranting, spewing and lying. This behaviour has a starting point and in many cases a finishing point. The type of abuse I experienced and I believe Z was also subject is not situational. These abuses will not have an end there is no crisis to be over. This is a personality issue. It traumatises and is hard to escape from. In fact my family and friends are truly relieved my M is over, in some cases warning me to be sure to protect myself in case there is revenge.

Sadly this is where I find myself, repairing myself and my very damaged sitch. It may take years to do this. The abuser feels justified in his abuse in his words 'I deserved it', and he 'doesn't care'. There is no conflict in the abuser, this wasn't a loving H who had a crisis. This was an abuser who targeted me and will go on to target another. Likely behaving in the same way. He certainly abused before.

Applying DB made the abuse much worse as it represents lack of control to the abuser. That applies to almost all techniques. The abuser enjoys the distress and confusion of the abused as it represents more control. So in that sense DB did work as it created so much distress that the abuse became evident even to me.

I need DB and I want to recover, this recovery is only just beginning. It may take many years to rebuild from the trauma and I need every tool I need. I for one am prepared to pay it forward. Like Z am prepared to work with this. But I am no vet, and I am very new in recovery, I haven't pieced and my M is truly defunct. I am in love with an abuser and traumatised by the abuse.

Several times other posters have asked me to examine sitches where there is clear abuse and/or addiction. In Z case, Susanna and Ralliced for AHW? There are several posters here who are recovering from addiction and repairing their R, DBing as LBS, they too deserve all the help and support they can.

MLC is a specific condition with its own patterns with cheese less tunnels and replay. The abusers we discuss here know where the cheese is and will do everything to get it. They are not in cheese less tunnels they have all the cheese and intend to keep it all. They take away another's cheese. They don't like the WAS to walk away because they loose control of the cheese. They will keep going until they need to move on to the next source of cheese.

As Z says living in this abusive type of R is trauma and destruction.

Z we are hijacking your thread with this. Are you willing to start a thread, identifying abuse in R and how DB can be positive in recovery and repair?

V

[Sherman333]

Its a tough subject. But I'm thinking that giving search terms would make the most amount of sense... So when someone recognizes a DBer with facing abuse they could be steered to the thread and that could point them to other resources to help them understand/deal with what they're facing.

I know my situation happened gradually over time and that it is repetitive with the STBXW. She's done it all her life and will continue to do it. I don't think I'd have recognized the abuse when it started... it was subtle. Blatant by the time things were over though.

[Calibri]

I just wanted to say Zelda, that I hear you and what you're trying to say.

Abuse is one of those things, that it doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. Abuse covers a broad spectrum. And that [censored] because there isn't a one size fits all approach.

AT the beginning of my sitch, I wouldn't have classified my H's anger towards me as abuse. I just thought it was years of pent up [censored] finally coming out. It didn't hit me until I was talking in a (rare) joint counseling session with him that what he was doing to me was verbally abusive and that it had to stop. Being called out like that shook H to the core -- and it caused him to exam a lot of things. It eventually lead to him getting help and as a result, receiving a mental illness diagnosis.

And I'm left with the question - was the verbal abuse a symptom of the illness triggering, or was it always there? I don't know. I don't know if I will ever know. *shrugs*

In my case, the abuse, in some cosmic effed up way -- helped. Not me. But rather my Husband. And I would like to believe that he's going to be better later down the road for the discovery of it.


I think perhaps developing a link to recognizing signs of abuse (mental, physical, verbal, controlling, etc) can be extremely helpful -- especially if the new people take the time to read the links.

Just my .02.

---

I think this is a great topic to think tank and explore, as a group.

[Cadet]

Cluster B is called the dramatic, emotional, and erratic cluster.

• Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, lack of empathy, bloated self-image, manipulative and impulsive behavior.
• Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity.
• Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions.
• Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

First of all MLC is known to mimic all of the above disorders and I or other veterans on the MLC forum, have seen posters whose spouses have these traits.

MLC abuse strikes me as situational. The individual is transiting a life crisis and as a consequences exhibits abusive behaviour. Most often once the MLC abates the abuse is gone.

And how are we as posters or vets suppose to know this?

The type of abuse that I experienced is the result of a controlling personality and that is unlikely to ever change. These types of Abusers move from one victim to another. This is a control issue not a crisis issue

CONTROL is a frequent subject within MLC and personality disorders.

It occurs as a result of personality not situational. It is very hard for this type of abuser to change. They abuse because it achieves the result they need, control. They generally charm then abuse and repeat this cycle.

There are several levels of abusive behaviour and with this type of abuser there is escalation as they require more control. It is not always physical abuse but there is a definitive cycle. With a consistent escalation. It is deliberate and patterned. It repeats and it is predictable. It doesn't start suddenly in midlife, it begins from childhood and is lifelong. These abuses blame those they abuse and it is in their interest to have a source of narcissist supply. In other words the abuse makes the abuser feel good and better about themselves. When thwarted the abuser will often lash or intimidate to get what they need. They may even have a midlife crisis as well!

Abusers often use alcohol as a choice to excuse abuse, that too is control. They may also have addictions, and self control issues.

DB is many things, in and of itself it is that which works, providing and giving access to resources to assist in that growth, personal development and to repair marriage and relationships. It has it's philosophy and club rules. I agree Cadet that it is a Peer to Peer group, with the wisdom of crowds.

There are some situations, abuse, compulsion and addiction that require additional resources extra to DB. Abuse counselling is available but often that requires an initial acknowledgement of the abuse. A recognition of it in the sitch is essential, either by self discovery or by uncovering it through the process of DB and the discussions that follow. For me that was very traumatic and dramatic.

I am sure that with hindsight this is clear. There is a chain process through which we in peer to peer patterning help each other. I do read MLC threads and rarely do I see this escalation and pattern abuse.

Do I see abuse in many MLC sitches? Yes, I do, situational abuse, MLC starts and abuse begins, some awful behaviours too, denial of As, ranting, spewing and lying. This behaviour has a starting point and in many cases a finishing point. The type of abuse I experienced and I believe Z was also subject is not situational. These abuses will not have an end there is no crisis to be over. This is a personality issue. It traumatises and is hard to escape from. In fact my family and friends are truly relieved my M is over, in some cases warning me to be sure to protect myself in case there is revenge.

Sadly this is where I find myself, repairing myself and my very damaged sitch. It may take years to do this. The abuser feels justified in his abuse in his words 'I deserved it', and he 'doesn't care'. There is no conflict in the abuser, this wasn't a loving H who had a crisis. This was an abuser who targeted me and will go on to target another. Likely behaving in the same way. He certainly abused before.

Applying DB made the abuse much worse as it represents lack of control to the abuser. That applies to almost all techniques. The abuser enjoys the distress and confusion of the abused as it represents more control. So in that sense DB did work as it created so much distress that the abuse became evident even to me.

I need DB and I want to recover, this recovery is only just beginning. It may take many years to rebuild from the trauma and I need every tool I need. I for one am prepared to pay it forward. Like Z am prepared to work with this. But I am no vet, and I am very new in recovery, I haven't pieced and my M is truly defunct. I am in love with an abuser and traumatised by the abuse.

Several times other posters have asked me to examine sitches where there is clear abuse and/or addiction. In Z case, Susanna and Ralliced for AHW? There are several posters here who are recovering from addiction and repairing their R, DBing as LBS, they too deserve all the help and support they can.

MLC is a specific condition with its own patterns with cheese less tunnels and replay. The abusers we discuss here know where the cheese is and will do everything to get it. They are not in cheese less tunnels they have all the cheese and intend to keep it all. They take away another's cheese. They don't like the WAS to walk away because they loose control of the cheese. They will keep going until they need to move on to the next source of cheese.

As Z says living in this abusive type of R is trauma and destruction.

I believe midlife in general heightens problems that all people have, and your body attack the weakest area that it can find.
So an abuser that enters midlife will have worse abusive attributes, an addict will become more addicted, and so on.
My mother was bipolar and her disease went off the rails in midlife.
Depressive people can have the same thing, all that being said I can not see how we can do anything other than work on ourselves.
I see codependent, conflict avoiding, fixers as most LBS.
This leads into a fertile ground for someone to create abusive behavior.

I understand V your point of view and my question is would you have recognized an abuser before you came to DB?

If you were to ever get in another relationship would you recognize an abuser?

What if it was a different type of abuse?

[Zelda09]

Feel free to hijack, I did not start this thread to discuss my situation personally.

I think there are some reliable sources on the web, which detail warning signs and signs of verbal abuse, physical abuse, emotional. It may be helpful to put it all in black-and-white, like a cheat sheet. It is always so clear in hindsight, and excusable in the moment.

Especially if it can be attributed to anything else! Like teasing, like MLC, the list goes on. When you love someone, you wanted to be fixable, you wanted to be anything else.

At the end of the day, it does not matter if it is personality disorders, mental illness, any number of things, that once someone recognizes the signs are there, it will still require a lot of work with a professional, and a strong support system.

[Vanilla]

Cadet,

would I have recognised an abuser before I came to DB?

The answer is yes, but recognising your H is a controlling abuser is another issue. It became very clear within a short space of time. I nearly walked after 6 months, I was not wayward but decided to stand as a result of DB. The abuse escalated to quite dangerous and threatening levels.

If I was in another R would I know?

absolutely.

What if it was a different type of abuse.

This type of abuse is about control that is the key factor to recognise. I would absolutely know this, one can not but know it. Whatever it's roots. It is very different indeed.


I originally posted this on thread 12 page 4 after seeking many sources of help to modify my own behaviour to improve the R, as the lower levelsof abuse were countered H escalated at this stage level 4 was a daily event. i had been effective in dealing with levels 1 to 3 . H had started some level 6 behaviour that of attack and intimidation. At that point I had not been to the police but I had recorded the rants etc. the stronger the boundaries I set, the firmer I enforced the higher the level of abuse. The abuse was also public H expected everyone to agree with him. Eventually I had VSO and contact with an abuse recognition program called the Freedom Program. This is UK initiative and is available on line. it is available for the abuser and the target. The purple remarks were on thread 9 and the red on thread 12.


_________________________________________________________
originally posted on thread 9, I am struggling to find ways of dealing with Verbal Abuse.

The exercise is in a book which describes abusive communications, so I am journaling my responses here.

These were Vs original thoughts but actually did not really know if I was correct at the time I wrote it.

These have been inserted from two or three sources and after discussion with VSO. I need practice sessions but I will keep adding as I find responses work or not!.

Identify the abuses in your R and prevents you from being your authentic self. (V added the scoring: I like scores)

On a scale of 1 to 10 identify how you enforce your boundaries.

Blaming Level 1 abuse : refusal of responsibility
This is the most frequent abuse tactic, intended to control, put down or make another responsible.
How much do you accept blame in your R?
H=3, V=2
V no longer allows H to blame her, if she is in the wrong she apologises and corrects or atones (12 step 8). No longer works for H.

Response that is best : "Stop accusing and blaming me immediately." "stop it!" "I do not want to hear that again." "You are talking to someone you should respect." " Do not say that in that way."

No justification, these are stories made up by H about my motives. Explaining or justifying continues the abuse cycle. If the criticism is valid that can be acknowledged later. This is like throwing a rock through a window, stopping the thrower from doing more damage.


Name calling Level 2 abuse: control
Insulting and bullying.
How much do you use this tactic and accept it in your R?
H=3, V=1
V walks away now, screaming banshee used to return insult for insult. No more, enormous progress on this one.

Best response: "Stop that, do not call me names, ever." "I do not want to hear you call me names again ever." "This is inappropriate."

Raging abusive anger/aggression Intimidation Level 6 abuse: attack
Designed to intimidate and control.
How much anger is in your R?
H=4 V=2
V gets annoyed but parks it. H has calmed down a lot since this has happened. H used to use this to get his own way.

According to VSO, the most dangerous of all. Get away immediately and if necessary with evasion. Just leave.

If slight control " Stop, please talk to me calmly." " Do not raise your voice to me."
Pay no attention to the words, look at the tone and posture.
If threatened : "Stop threatening me." "I do not want to hear this." " Leave me alone." " I am leaving now."

Covert aggressive manipulation Level 4 abuse: unexpected
Different from passive aggression. A power play using charm, implied reward, compliments, suggested punishment or withholding, helplessness, guilt, shame,self-depreciation, empty apology or playing victim. A manipulator may appear non aggressive and act aggrieved. Response is guilt, defensive confusion and capitulation.
How active is this component in your R?
H=10 V=2
This is the new H playbook, dropped the other tactic and this is the new and latest leading. V is often not observant enough to notice and she wants to believe H.

Counter measures need investigating.

Silent treatment, be matter of fact "I am very bored with this and am going to leave."

Sit with headphones More work needed on this, I still do not fully understand the best way to deal with it.


Ordering level 3 abuse: threats
Instead of requests instructing, treating another like a 'slave'
How much ordering or instruction is in your R?
H=1, V= 0
This just does not work with V although H would try it.

Best answer "who are you ordering about?", "please ask nicely" or "I make my own decisions". If uses we as in "we are going" then response is "that is not what I had in mind".

Judging and criticising Level 1 abuse: lack of responsibility
Evaluating, giving unwanted advice, and telling others what they 'should do'?
How much criticism and judgement do you accept to keep your R?
H=4, V=7
V is very sensitive to H criticisms although she does not react. She is also likely to impute the wrong motives every time to H. That is judgement but she does not criticise much to H directly. H judges everyone and everything, nothing is good enough for H. H expects perfection. V finds this rather amusing.

Needs work by V, V needs to find more that H is doing right. V also sits in judgement and criticises herself too much. She is kinder to others even H than she is to V.

These have been real blows to V self esteem. Constant and endless Defining another is real boundary infringement.

Suggested responses "do you hear yourself" "stop judging me" "cut that out, enough already" "that is not acceptable" "nonsense" " keep your views to yourself" "that is my business" " that is not your concern, it is mine" then disengage, further discussion promotes further abuse.

Play, jokes, sarcasm and teasing Level 1 abuse: denial
Wit, ironic, overt praise and always painful to the recipient. Concealed Judgement.
How much smiling judgement do you endure in your R?
H=8, V=2
H when called on his words or behaviour often says "it is a joke, where is your sense of humour?". Very hard to counter,
V needs more techniques to counter this. Considering more IC in March.

This is a I am better than you or at your expense and is very immature. Do try to explain what is unfunny or inappropriate or ask why the 'joke' was said . Do not laugh or wonder about the maturity.

Best response: " I wonder now you have said that, put me down, interrupted me, do you feel more important? I want you to think about it" then disengage. " This conversation is over" or "I will get back to you on that".

Opposing Level 1 abuse: lack of responsibility
Treats as adversary and argues against anything, perceptions, opinions, thoughts and feelings. Says "no" outright without discussion closing down constructive conversation.
How much opposing is in your R?
H=6, V=2
H gets very few requests from V, but not really one of H characteristics. H LL is Acts of Service.
V now has a tendency to say no to H almost without thinking and this needs review

Counters feelings or perceptions, deliberately misconstrues, refutes that you have said something. Best response is "stop", "let me repeat my statement".

Do not explain the view or this too will be countered, no arging, "I do not see it that way" "I have a right to my own views". "Hold it, can you repeat that or write it down". "Stop countering me". "As you say". Then leave.

Blocking and diverting Level 1 abuse: denial
Abort conversations, make accusations and effectively say "shut up"
How often is discussion closed down in your R?
H=4, V=1
V talks too much sometimes but has had to learn the difference between blocking, closing and evading. parking is V choice of response. H choice expression "do not go there" but V defers and parks and often the need to boundary enforce is needed. Does not happen very often these days. Much better on this.

This is thwarting in the worst way. Keep repeating the request (fogging) (An answer which is "no" or "I do not know " is neither blocking nor diverting.)

Instead say " you are creating a diversion" and "if you do not know then I reserve the right to find out".

Discounting Trivialising and belittling Level 1 abuse: denial
Minimising or trivialising feelings, thoughts or experience. Suggests feelings are not valid.
How often are thoughts, feelings or experience discounted in your R?
H=3, V=1
Simply does not work and therefore not used by either H or V.

Devalues the self. "I certainly do not feel supported when I hear this" "I have heard all I need to hear".

Undermining and interrupting Level 4 abuse: accusing then criticising
Undermining with statements such as "you do not know what you are talking about" speaking on another's behalf without permission
How much are undermining and interrupting evident in your R?
H=8, V=9
Oh yes a big one this, V wants to do more work on this as H is vulnerable in the work environment. V can be interrupting others at work.
V has identified a big issue to work on. However this is not as evident in her personal relationship now, but is a work issue.

This is cruel and covert. "I do not like your attitude" "that was low" " stop, cut that out" "this is the opposite of fun" .

Lying, forgetting and denying Level 1 abuse denial of responsibility
Concious lying is manipulation. Addicts and compulsives may deny agreements or promises, a conversation took place, even prior abuse. They may ever declare love and caring. Crazy making, referred to as 'gas lighting' . Particularly evident in gambling and hidden stages of addiction. Can even mean lying by omission.
Are you aware of lying and denying in your R?
H=10, V=1
As far as V is concerned H is a master at this, V tends not to believe anything that H says without independent verification. H has even lied at GA openly, not disclosing the length of time he has been gambling. Nothing V can do on this but try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps identifying areas where H may not lie and giving more trust. In 12 steps we learn that love is possible without trust.

Do not believe the denial. Do not say how this hurts frightens or disturbs you. Never try to explain or understand why the lie etc has occurred. No anger, use of authority will help, no try to explain. V did not make H anything, "mad" "hurt" "abandoned" or any other thing. Best response "this is crazy making", "stop it", "I do not believe you. Do not let this happen again"

there is one form of abuse that is not in the above. that is withholding which is a level 5 form of abuse. it is very irrational, no fight, no argument, and no anger. A refusal to respond, no contact whilst active in a R. Whilst carrying on conversations with friends, discover plans only through friends. This is shunning and distain could be evidence of an A. Exceedingly toxic.

Apologies for the long post but I wanted to gather my thoughts all together in one post.

V

Edited to remove quotes from V for readability - hopefully that is OK - Cadet

[Vanilla]

I was unable to modify in time. My high scores in the previous post are because I was effectively agreeing with H and abusing myself. Not because I was directing those behaviours towards H.

V

[Vanilla]

Cadet

I am musing and thinking on this question:

And how are we posters or vets supposed to know?

Looking to organise my thoughts off line.

Z I was going to suggest we plan to open our new thread on Saturday, if that's ok with you?

V

[Cadet]

Cadet

I am musing and thinking on this question:

And how are we posters or vets supposed to know?

Looking to organise my thoughts off line.

Z I was going to suggest we plan to open our new thread on Saturday, if that's ok with you?

V

Sounds good to me.

I see nothing wrong with us discussing this in a useful help thread.

I do think that there was some wisdom here though

Zelda and Cadet,

Before anything is posted on the subject of abuse in the marriage, I suggest that it be run by Michelle. After all, she created the forum, wrote the books, has coaching sessions, etc. She may very well have something more specific that can be placed on her introduction page of this site, which would make more sense then adding a statement just on the Welcome Page that Cadet created.

Just my two cents.

I keep hoping that Job will come back and contribute to your thread as she has a wealth of knowledge that I trust and value.

I am not sure we will be able to convince Michelle to contribute which is my only concern about the above quote.
So my suggestion is we look for information that she has already written on the subject.
Her most recent writings are on her blog, facebook and twitter.

[Vanilla]

Cadet

Agreed, I for one will need guidance and Help from you, I am thinking two threads eventually. A discussion one initially then a Wonka style cheat sheet with the best bits, maybe a call to Wonka for her assistance on technique, we can but ask.

I agree much useful stuff already and some of this will be very key to quote and transfer. We can also have links to examples of abuse if other posters agree to it and add the links. I am comfortable with using some of the verbal abuse examples from my thread. Being open about this has been very important to me in my recovery.

Although I confess to being a little apprehensive because of my skill shortage.

V