Abuse from a partner is not fixed through DR

[Cadet]

Maybe what is needed is a thread on abuse with a link. Could that be recommended?

Absolutely.

I was also thinking about creating a resource thread for newcomers similar to what we did in the MLC forum.

However I need suggestions for threads(links) or new threads created.

I suggest that V and Zelda might want to create a thread on this subject.

[Zelda09]

I am happy to put some work into this.

To echo what V said, ppl do terrible hurtful things to each other. I certainly must have reached the end of my rope and said and done things that would qualify as emotional abuse (screaming banshee anyone?)

Sometimed we are hurt bc these actions are out of a partners selfishness, and sometimes we hurt others out of our selfishness, frustration or flashes of anger. It's human and we feel bad.

Abuse it is not that and there is a 'tool' at work - one that replaces healthy tools - where an abuser systematically degrades, gaslights, isolates and intimidates their partner. That is the behavior I think we need to include a differentiate from depression and MLC, infidelity. It is a very targeted hurt where someone comes into your space, past healthy boundaries.

As I look back at the last seven months, I do wish that there had been something on this forum that said:

"Being faced with losing your love, dreams and partner is incredibly painful. Whether the marriage was healthy or it wasn't. You can be the first to make it healthy, and yourself healthy through DR, but now is a good time to take stock of not only your role and behaviors, but your partners' as well, and the general dynamic of your M.

If you have been dealing with abusive behavior, it is tempting to minimize it along feelings of longing and empathy for your partner, who may have you convinced he/she is a victim.
(Insert list of red flags, abusive definition, behaviors.)

Know that you did not cause any of this, and therefore you cannot control it, reverse it, or fix it. It is possible to change these behaviors if an abuser is genuinely interested in making those changes. Persuading them and educating them may help in the short term, along with drawing boundaries for yourself, but these are rarely lasting changes unless the abuser is personally motivated.

Abuse escalates. These situations never start with a punch on the first date, or even first year together.

If you see these red flags or patterns, you may be tempted to think that your partner is not really an abuser because of all of their other wonderful qualities. However, this does not change the fact that you have recognized some very unhealthy ways your partner controls and hurts you. Personal motivation to change on behalf of the abuser and professional counseling is the only thing that can reverse this behavior. Changes you make through DR may draw your abuser back to you and may temporarily change patterns. But sooner or later, an abusive personality will use the tools they know best. Some people can grow, but the important thing is your safety until trust can be re established.

Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy is for you at this point. We can all grow and become our best, and learn to be deeply considerate of our partners!

If any of these red flags looked familiar, please do not minimize your experience, make excuses for it, or blame yourself, or imagine how things will be different if you are to change your behavior. Seek the help of a professional and begin examining your boundaries and why you have endured a relationship with this dynamic."
-------/-

Would I have read this and gone on any different journey? Idk. I remember when I found this site I read it religiously, all the articles. I hoped so fiercely, this man was my soul mate. I loved him and would have done anything to get him back. I remember being willing to compassionately forgive my STBX for flipping me off, telling me to F off, telling me I was this, that, screaming at me, incapable of understanding him...all these things that I first kicked him out of the house for...I thought yes, "he is teething."

I think if we can differentiate abuse from teething, that could be helpful. I had five years of emails, articles I'd sent him about his sbusive ways. Begging him to stop treating me that way, recognize it. Telling him I wouldn't stand for it. So it got more subtle, or longer periods in between. But when I came here, I was so ready to save my M the last thing I wanted to say was, hey I dodged a bullet, good riddance!

I said, he is teething, omg, I can see why he did all that! I can change the dance! None of us want to believe we are being abused and asking for it to come back. Denial is a huge factor. Until someone has been through it, I imsgine it sounds crazy.

[Cadet]

when I came here, I was so ready to save my M the last thing I wanted to say was, hey I dodged a bullet, good riddance!

So do you really think that anything we said would have changed your mind?

I feel like DB worked for you - just the way it is suppose to.
Maybe you didnt totally understand it, however I really doubt anything anyone would say or write would have changed YOU, until YOU were ready to change!

Their is a process here and if you leave out any steps it just sends you back to the start to reaccomp[lish what you skipped.

JMHO!

[Zelda09]

Cadet, with all due respect…

There are forums here on infidelity, depression, MLC. Abusive marriages does not deserve its place here?

This would have been helpful to me. Someghing, anywhere on this board to say sometimes DR is not enough and you're in over your head. What I have been stubborn? Perhaps. There is also a good possibility that I might have considered that abuse was a factor in my relationship. That DB does not Cure all. I may have been able to talk to a different kind of veteran who understood, and I may have sought help and called the thing by the right name earlier.

I daresay that Michelle wiener Davis would not advocate for someone DBing themselves back in an abusive situation as part of her process.

Maybe there is a bat signal you can send out to her.

[Cadet]

Cadet, with all due respect…

There are forums here on infidelity, depression, MLC. Abusive marriages does not deserve its place here?

This would have been helpful to me. Someghing, anywhere on this board to say sometimes DR is not enough and you're in over your head. What I have been stubborn? Perhaps. There is also a good possibility that I might have considered that abuse was a factor in my relationship. That DB does not Cure all. I may have been able to talk to a different kind of veteran who understood, and I may have sought help and called the thing by the right name earlier.

I daresay that Michelle wiener Davis would not advocate for someone DBing themselves back in an abusive situation as part of her process.

Maybe there is a bat signal you can send out to her.

First of all I would submit that most people on the MLC forum are in abusive marriages.

I am not trying to give you a hard time and I do believe that MWD has a section in the books about not remaining in an abusive marriage.

The main purpose of this forum is to sell coaching and MWD materials, IMHO.
So if a DB Coach was helping you then I believe that they would try to get your focus on to YOU.
Certainly my main objective is to try to help people focus on themselves as that is really what DB is all about.
Controlling the only person that we have any power over.

Sorry I do not have any bat signals available to me and I have never met MWD.
TBH she has not posted here in many years and really this forum is not her focus.

We are a peer to peer group and none of us are paid professionals, but volunteers that are paying forward the gifts that have been given to us.

In my humble opinion.

[CaliGuy]

^^^
I was thinking the same thing as fas as MLC and abusive marriages.

As far as the DBing/abusive relationship angle. I do think its set up very good to handle it, I do recal there is a part in the book where MWD actually says not to go back into that type of enviornment. Biblacly speaking even the church states one should remove and protect themselves and pray the S changes.

If you detach, GAL, 180 for you, are you not healing? Is that not the ultimate goal to heal and become self dependent rather than to feel obligated like a moth to the flame of an abusive relationship?

Alot of the MLCrs are in this type of situation and if you read enough ... there is a point where the power becomes theirs and they choose to either stand for the M and wait for the WAS to change, or they drop the rope and move on.

Not taking away from what you have gone through but I personally feel the process here, if followed, can easily save a person in any type of relationship by giving them the tools and they become independent regardless of the spouse and their actions.

[Zelda09]

Guys,

All crows are black, but not all blackbirds are crows.

Not all abusive situations are couched under MLC.

If this is truly a peer to peer support group, I think there needs to be a place for people to address abuse as abuse. With people that have been there, or have professional training in it. DR still applies.

Obviously this started off as a place to Sell books and Hope. Stand for your marriage. Be your best self. They will come around. I drank the Kool-Aid, it was very nice, and my STBX came around. I wish to God he hadn't because it was worse than ever.

But this should not threaten the status quo around here to let it be said that no one advocates for staying in a marriage like this. Just because it sounds obvious to you, doesn't mean it isn't something that can be put in big bold letters around here - somewhere. This is my whole point you seem to be missing - at time of grief, it is very easy for someone to get caught up in the idea that they can and should stay in this kind of marriage. And, I can't find a single spot in this board where this topic is even addressed. Sex starved marriages and all the rest, but nothing on the fact that some marriages are unhealthy and flat out dangerous.

I appreciate the fact that you guys have so many wonderful opinions on MLC, codependency, etc - but have you lived in a relationship like this? I can think of Sherman, TLEE, Vanilla, GGrass that can probably add a lot to this subject.

Nothing I am suggesting takes anything away from divorce Busting, divorce remedy, or all those wonderful things that help us survive a divorce.

[RosaLinda]

If this is truly a peer to peer support group, I think there needs to be a place for people to address abuse as abuse. With people that have been there, or have professional training in it. DR still applies.

I suggest that V and Zelda might want to create a thread on this subject.

It's been my experience that abuse is hard for the abusee to recognize. My ex treated me just like yours did you Zelda, for 38 years ("flipping me off, telling me to F off, telling me I was this, that, screaming at me, incapable of understanding him"). It was not until he REALLY whacked out and went into a mid life crisis and I came to this forum for help, that other posters compassionately helped me to recognize this was abuse. I sort of figured it was all my fault and tried to be be better, but did not know it was abuse because he never struck me and I thought I deserved it. DBing helped me learn to set boundaries, and now I am happily divorced and whole.

A thread on how to recognize abuse and how to deal with it is an awesome idea. Cadet already invited you to start one

[RosaLinda]

PS I think the quote you posted above would be a great way to start the thread!

[Sherman333]

I can certainly add a few of things I've learned about Cluster B personality disorders.

Cluster B is called the dramatic, emotional, and erratic cluster.

• Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, lack of empathy, bloated self-image, manipulative and impulsive behavior.
• Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity.
• Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions.
• Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

Disorders in this cluster share problems with impulse control and emotional regulation.