IDK, Mozza. I never know what to do with that kind of info. Way back in a day I wrote about how my H became estranged from his parents after they D'd (he was 25). Like cheating, family estrangement also runs in families and some say it has a genetic basis. Actually when H and I went to a few MC sessions soon after BD, the C said something to the effect that I might want to re-consider having kids with the man given the potential to pass that trait on! What was I going to do - D my H on the off chance that our kid may one day abandon us?
What if cheating does have a genetic basis? Maybe that's why your WW cheated. Maybe its not. Sometimes I think its easy to read things like the NYT article and think "ah...so that's why the WAS left"...and remove our role in the mess. (Not saying that about you...you've clearly put in a lot of work the last many months...but I think we need to be careful not to see an out).
I think the truth is probably in the medium. There probably is a genetic basis for cheating....and that dictates how we will behave if/when the circumstances arise (unhappy with current R + presented with potential suitor). Personally I think no-one is immune.
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
I don't know about genes making us unfaithful, but indeed if your parents were cheaters you probably either hate cheating or might do it yourself. That would be a behavioral thing and not genetic though. But perhaps our genes can make us more susceptible to certain behaviors.
From following your story I'd say your W is not the best choice if you value fidelity and consistency. At least not now in this phase of her life. Maybe she will change over time as she learns about herself.
I've cheated on boyfriends in the past when I was very young. Of course I'd say I'd never do it but when you are doing something like that you can always come up with an excuse for doing what you want in the moment. In my case, well, I was very young and stupid. Selfish. But also I was bored with the relationship and wanted out and no longer cared about the feelings of my partner. Since then however I have been loyal to a fault.
I do think this topic of hereditary cheating is interesting. I think my mother cheated on my father when she wanted to leave him, and then she left. It's an "easy" way to transition out of a relationship. And she cheated during some subsequent relationships. I never judged her, even as a child. So maybe that is my genes - maybe my genes allow me to see this as a crappy but normal part of human nature. Maybe it is learned behavior from mirroring my own mother. Who knows. Does it really matter?
They say the tendency toward addiction is also in our genes (or not). But then we make the choice. Will we do cocaine, or not? Will we eat 500 cookies, or not? Why not? What are the reasons why we wouldn't make destructive choices.
Maybe when someone cheats on YOU and you feel how much it hurts, you rethink your urges to do it. Or maybe you learn that it complicates things and it is better to just have a clean break and then do what you want afterward.
I probably would be afraid to get into a relationship (or reunite) with someone who cheated more than once in the past, unless they were able to clearly tell me why they wouldn't make that choice in the future. As I said above, if you asked me about it I would say that yes I have done it and I have learned why it is a bad idea. I think I can be trusted in a relationship.
So I guess the time for you to worry about this is when/if your W comes to you and says she wants to reunite. Then you need to ask her what she thinks about cheating. "It was a big mistake and I'll never do it again!" with lots of tears is not the right answer. I think the right answer is a logical, thought out explanation of exactly WHY it is a bad idea.
Big hugs to you Mozza! How's it going with the dating? Lisa
Thanks all for the feedback. It's so great to know a group of people who know what I'm going through.
Flirting report | It has more or less stopped since I started online dating. I see it as a separate topic from dating because the point of flirting is to make the initial contact when I'm attracted, so that I overcome my fear of rejection. My IC agrees that online dating is a phase and that eventually, I'll have to get back to approaching women in real life.
Dating report | Unexpected success, if the point is to meet women. I've met five women so far and haven't been rejected once — actually, one woman did and when I replied "that's fine", she changed her mind! I wasn't really looking for a confidence boost, but now I feel it and realize that I might no be a man only a fool would leave, but I can be an interesting prospect. It seems like this phase is about reassuring myself that I can attract women, and the next step will be to be the one choosing them. For four of the five, they had taken the first step (hence the low rejection rate, obviously). It's kind of my pattern to reply to women who express interest, rather than initiating with the ones that attract me. Much work to do still.
Sex report | I bet this new section caught your attention. I'm also learning about myself and sex in general by sleeping with other women than my WW (I've not slept with 4-5 women since, but allow me to keep a little privacy on the details here!). First, it's fun. I'm not so sure anymore about my theory that early sex isn't as good as it gets after a few months or years. Obviously, there is a lesser emotional connection and I remember being utterly in love with WW when we first slept together and it was the best. Such a feeling of completeness. Second, it's important and sacred, but it's not the end all that I perceived before. I can't do it with someone who annoys me, repulses me or is not interested in me, but I realize that it can be done with people we feel a connection, if not a desire to spend the rest of our lives together. I also mind a little less that WW had sex with another man — you might recall that I felt tremendous sexual jealousy after WW left. I feel that the emotional betrayal is a bigger deal than the physical one, even though many LBS feel the opposite, at least at first.
GAL report | I now live a normal, busy life. I'm past the point of seeking to GAL for the sake of it, or at least that's how it feels. It just happens naturally. I've just finished my dance classes and I'm considering registering for the next level. I've put my motorbike plans on the ice for this summer. I'm taking a week-long holiday starting Friday, after I drop off the kids. I almost always have elaborate plans for the week-ends when I have the kids (then the week goes on with the routine). As I said, it's all happening naturally.
PMA report | Come to think of it, I haven't cried in a few days. It might be my longest stretch since BD. I seem to observe that having the kids make things a little worse for me. It seems strange until you realize that they remind me of WW a lot and they bring a lot of work and pressure with them. But I've had them since Friday and I'm fine. I'm not looking forward to the mediation process though.
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SunnyB | Thanks for your interest and I'm happy to share and explain as much as you want. I won't feel judged. I see my R with this woman as a phase of a few weeks or months, knowing at the same time that I can't predict the future. I enjoy her company, but I also think she enjoys mine. Yes, we go to bed together, but we also care about each other, update each other every day, share our hopes and all. It's a very sweet relationship and it seems to me, hoping I don't read this wrong, that we're both in acceptance that the future is unknown. It is simply not a forever R.
I've explained this at length earlier on these threads, but the whole "married man" thing is much less of an issue where I live than in the US. People around me see it more as a technicality, now that I've been separated, that the mediation has started and, especially, that WW is living with OM. For that reason, I would never discard a woman because she's interested in me while I'm still technically married (I would if she accepted to cheat while I'm still in an R, even not M).
I understand why it's not popular around here, as we try to save lifelong commitments, but a vast majority of R do not last a lifetime. It's not that special to be with someone, even that intimately, for a definite period. It might just be rarer to acknowledge it from the start.
jim0987 | So good to see you stop by on my thread. You're like an old friend I don't see enough of. Thanks for your support.
MCS | Same for you: I'm so glad to see you stopping by. I hope this is not goodbye already, as I plan to update this board at least until my D is complete, earliest in October. I'm glad if you can compare your situation and evolution by reading on my sitch. This is why I share it, as I believe that openness allow each other to feel more at peace with ourselves, less blinded by the perfect Facebook lives that we too often try to project.
TenBook | Thanks TenBook, it's nice to know that my advice can have been appreciated every now and then. I sometimes feel like I speak with too much authority for someone with such little experience and knowledge of M, S and D. But I guess we're all here to hear each other out and make our own decisions, so all contributions are welcome.
gan | I find it interesting that you refer to the marathon scale because I've also been thinking that I'm not at the end of my sitch at all. I'm the guy telling everyone that it takes years to resolve, and I'm not even 9 months into mine. I try to keep it in mind and not make rush decisions about the resolution of my sitch, to let the situation and my emotions evolve.
karma12 | THIS IS IT!! This is what I was referring to as the next step in your sitch, after things fell through with the fireman. It seems fairly common that when we run out of love interests, our heart naturally goes back to our ex. Nothing wrong with that, I'm just an interested observer of how those things evolve. Keep updating us.
raliced | Always a pleasure to have your organized and informed mind weigh in. Yes, it works about the same here. We even have five hours (5 x 1) of free mediation because we have kids. I hope my solution will work out.
CaliGuy | Thanks again for your idea. I went with it and let WW choose the mediator. I'm interested in your stories where the WW turned around at mediation. It seems very unlikely to happen to me. WW does not seem very emotional about the whole thing, simply going through the motion long after her final decision was made. Still, I try to convince myself that I shouldn't come across as dragging my feet, but rather show her that I take the lead for my part, and make her reflect a little on how we both come out of this situation.
Bob723 | Thanks for stopping by during these busy times for you. As I wrote above, plenty of GAL. It's just not an issue anymore.
Zues126 | I agree that we shouldn't try to diagnose the WW, especially given our confirmation bias in these hard times ("they are bad people!"). I see this research as one more piece of the puzzle, something to reflect upon, not really a final explanation.
Wonka | Have you read the article? In any case, MWD's position seems to be "most M can be saved" not "no one is genetically predisposed to cheating". I don't see why should would object to the research findings.
LisaB | So nice to see you around. Thanks a lot for sharing your personal history. I had no idea you had some history of cheating when you were younger. I find it interesting that you feel a changed woman and I'd be curious to see what will happen in the future. My WW was cheated on by her college boyfriend and deeply scarred by it, unable to trust men until she met me (for whom loyalty and fidelity are easy to promise and keep). So it was a huge surprise when she cheated on me in 2009. But when she did it again in 2014, I started to wonder if there is a pattern and now I find several signs that it is. But in any case, as you said, it's not really the time to worry about this because WW is not asking to R.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
You're very welcome. I'm glad you have plenty of GAL activities, it does help to get out.
I loved what Wonka wrote: "A bunch of hooey! That author should have a serious sit down with MWD who would most probably debunk every pie-in-the-sky theory."
Mozza, please try to keep a PMA. I know it is very tough to do, but you will find, over time, that is helps.
Keep taking care of yourself as best you can.
Bob
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Wonka | Have you read the article? In any case, MWD's position seems to be "most M can be saved" not "no one is genetically predisposed to cheating". I don't see why should would object to the research findings.
Yep, I've read the article and still stand by my earlier comment of it being a bunch of hooey. It's crazy to even suggest that one is 'genetically predisposed' to cheating! It is one of those new passing fads like Chia Pet that will be most definitely debunked in due course.
For one, the article writes about HUMAN BEHAVIOR. Not genes.
Two, it talks about oxytocin. And I quote here: 'there is a significant association between one variant of the oxytocin receptor gene and marital discord and lack of affection for one’s partner'
Of course, that is the dopamine that we all talk about here when one slides into the A fog.
And the kicker? Third, it further compares humans to animal sexual behavior. Sheesh...how trite and intellectually lazy. The author probably didn't even look into research on animal sexual behavior which is VASTLY different than that of humans.
Again, it's a bunch of hooey (and a STRETCH) to proclaim that there's a gene that causes a person to be predisposed to cheating. Oh Lord! rolling eyes
Oh and did you know that swans mate for life? There goes that stupid theory!!!!
Right on Wonka!
Me:55 yrs/W:51 yrs (has MS) M:14 yrs T:15 yrs No children together--3 each from previous marriages Wife Moved Out: 10/19/14 Wife Filed for Divorce: 10/20/14 Divorce Final: 10/21/15
Thanks Mozza, I appreciate your openness. And I understand the cultural differences. I'm just struggling to clarify what I believe around all that right now. There's a guy who is pursuing me rather aggressively, and he knows I'm not D. And although it's flattering, I don't see anything long term going on. So that leaves me with sorting out exactly what is it about him that I'm rejecting and why? It's a little harder than I thought it was going to be because I really want to understand myself here. Am I rejecting him because he's ok with dating a M woman? I'd like to say yes but it's not true. Am I rejecting him because I'm not "healed" yet? Because he's too short? Not smart enough? Not refined enough? I really want to know and I really want to have the courage to admit whatever reason I come up with. And if I pass him by, will anyone else ever want me again? Good grief, this is complicated Mozza. But you make it look simple. What am I missing?
That was a good read, Mozza. Thanks for suggesting it. I'm always fascinated by the whole nature vs nurture business, especially since becoming a parent. It's always very interesting to watch the differences between my daughters. D3 is just a natural badas*. D7 always starts stuff, and D3 finishes it. While they share striking similarities, its fascinating that the shuffling of DNA from the same two sources created two such markedly different individuals.
I can fully buy into some genetically determined character traits being part of the infidelity puzzle, although, like Gan, I'm firmly in the camp that everyone is capable of it. I'm sure hormones, age (maturity level), and the people that one surrounds one self with also play a part, outside of the relationship dynamics. You know, I've been thoroughly evaluated, sliced and diced, so many times in my career - lets see - I'm an INFP (Meyers Briggs), a "Strategic Maximizer" (I forget the name of that test) and a "Green" (analytical), although in times of stress I exhibit traits from all four color types (don't remember the name of that one either). Those tests and the discussions around them are always interesting and constructive, but it always makes be uneasy when the person administering them starts to make sweeping generalizations about people's personalities. I have the same natural instinct whenever I read an article like this as to those tests. I think they have value (particularly genetics which is more of a hard science), but at the end of the day I come back to my basic theory, which is that human beings are freakin' complicated, and nothing explains all of capacities and nuances.
I appreciate your updates Mozza, obviously you are traveling a different route than many here, and I for one, am always a little intrigued by the path not taken. Carry on
I'm also learning about myself and sex in general by sleeping with other women than my WW (I've not slept with 4-5 women since, but allow me to keep a little privacy on the details here!). First, it's fun. I'm not so sure anymore about my theory that early sex isn't as good as it gets after a few months or years. Obviously, there is a lesser emotional connection and I remember being utterly in love with WW when we first slept together and it was the best. Such a feeling of completeness. Second, it's important and sacred, but it's not the end all that I perceived before. I can't do it with someone who annoys me, repulses me or is not interested in me, but I realize that it can be done with people we feel a connection, if not a desire to spend the rest of our lives together. I also mind a little less that WW had sex with another man — you might recall that I felt tremendous sexual jealousy after WW left. I feel that the emotional betrayal is a bigger deal than the physical one, even though many LBS feel the opposite, at least at first.
