Trying to Follow DB & DR (3)

[MrBond]

"And then there was this guy who only wanted to talk about something completely different.

Originally Posted By: MrBond
I thought you wanted to stop the poly lifestyle since it got you to this point. So you still want to continue it?"

Seriously? You just can't resist being a d*ck can you?

The reason why I asked is because it was important to know how serious you were about your changes before creating a response. But you didn't get that.

"In the end I convinced myself that it would be better if I didn't reach out to her.
Because it would lead her to pursuing me. Turns out I was wrong."

Yes you were. Learn from it.

You said that your W had issues with you putting her down. Seems like you can't shake that habit.

Look, I totally feel for you. And I was in your shoes and know you can turn things around. But if you would rather spend the time focussing on being an @$$hole, that's up to you. Problem is that you become more of what you focus on.

And I sincerely hope everything works out.

[rd500]

Hi. I've posted a few times and not with any great advice but just to advise you to listen. Read the books and get the vets thoughts. When I came on here MrBond was the only vet to post. He bas tried and tried with you but you are like a dog with a bone. We all feel your pain but you are here to try to deal with it.

It's your choice but think about it.

Ii wish you the best Take care. Rd

[Wonka]

Thank you, Minman. It helps to have your thoughts down here so we can support you in your DB journey.
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For starters.

-What were some of the issues that led to the M's breakdown?
-What are/were some of W's legitimate complaints about me that I really need to change and/or improve on?

We were really codependent with each other.
W felt that I didn't contribute to taking care of the household.
She felt more like a mother than a wife.

Have you ever taken on any of the household chores during the M? What were some that you took on? What were those of W's?

She was depressed, I think she was unhappy with her job.
She had a lot of negative things to say about her work/co-workers. She would complain just about every day about her job. It got to the point where I asked her to only tell me positive things about her day.

This is where validation can go a long way. It doesn't mean that you have to jump in and fix them for her. You can change the dynamic by going around the table and ask what were some of the thorns and what were some roses that happened during the day.

I was depressed about my job and outlook on the future of my career. I enjoy talking/interacting with people and my job is very secluded.

What type of work do you do here?

I was financially restrictive.

In what way do you feel that you're "financially restrictive"? What do you mean by that?

We didn't communicate well. We were speaking different love languages and I wondered often if she even did love me.

Communication isn't always about LL necessarily. Can you please describe some examples of how you think that you two didn't communicate well?

We didn't handle each other's emotions well. She bottled up her emotions and tried to protect me from having to deal with her emotions. In comparison I was really needy in having my emotions dealt with. (i.e. when she was sad she would just listen to music and not want to talk, when I was sad I would want to be held, comforted, and talked to.)

We learn our own patterns from FOO. Growing up, what did you learn about emotions? How was that modeled in your family? How did your ILs model theirs?

We didn't attend/support each other's needs really all that well either.

What does being supportive look like to you? How would you do this differently?

She said we were best friends but not good husband and wife material.

I sense that W is hinting at her own need for emotional intimacy that is lacking in the M. Thoughts?

-Why do I feel the need to defend every single thing I say/do?

First instinct would say that I do it when others judge me with little/weak/no evidence. In my line of work you're either right or you're a joke. Its easy for someone detached from that sitch to say "well just don't let the judgements" get to you, but that is harder in practice.

Again, we'd like to know your line of work to understand your mindset a bit better.

As zew said
"You cannot successfully filter that on a person by person basis -- it will leak out when you least expect it."

Speculation here is that this is how I treat people IRL/to their faces.
How many "nice guys" (as in NMMNG) actually do that?


-How can I learn from other posters who post to me?

How can I best how I feel about this? I'll put it in the context of puzzle games.
I can't play puzzle games. I know solutions exist and it's merely a matter of applying the solution to the puzzle/problem at hand. I find solving problems that have already been solved by others to be boring and a waste of time. That being said I realize that while my sitch might be similar to others, it is my own unique sitch that needs solving.

Are you an engineer by any chance?

I keep posting to journal and review what I've said and felt during this process.
I read and think about what others post. I try to determine if the posts are opinion, truth, knowledge or wisdom. As people have said we don't know each other and we have only what's posted here on the forum to gauge our opinions of others. Even my IC has laughed off some of the accusations of control issues brought up here.

We are all working with what you post here and we are generally pretty good at sniffing out some BS. What you tell IC is your own affair.

-Can I learn to let things go?

I'm trying. During my childhood I was lead to believe that its part of my heritage to hold long and hard grudges against people. Not the healthiest of behaviors to have.

For now I'm trying my best to ignore things that bug me. Maybe I'm using that as a pessimistic approach to acceptance/detachment.

Can you please let us know a bit more about your heritage and how it influences one's ability to hold grudges?

Getting the D papers is really testing my resolve to let things go.
Do I let go and just let the D happen on her terms or do I lawyer up and try to get what ever I may have owed to me?
One route seems vindictive, the other seems strategic. My IC says I need to act less strategically and more authentically.

What do you want to do? Save the M? Throw in the towel?

-What were/are some of my FOO issues that contributed to the breakdown?

Family of origin?? My mom is really codependent on me and my brother. It set the stage badly for the beginning of the relationship between the W and me.

Where's your father in this picture? Are you the eldest? What is your mother like?

W's family is really detached. To the point where they don't seem to care about her. She latched on to me and I believe that led to her codependency on me.

What were/are the dynamics you've observed of W's family? Parents? Siblings?


See above.


-Which specific behaviors, patterns, actions that I need to address with IC?

control issues
anger management
codependency
anxious attachments
negative self image

I'm glad to see that you're working on those issues with your IC. Keep going!

[Miman2]

Have you ever taken on any of the household chores during the M? What were some that you took on? What were those of W's?

My single chore was to fill and empty the dishwasher and I didn't even do that religiously. The W had a tendency to use every single dish we owned when cooking.

When we first got together I moved in with her and her parents. Back then she would do all the chores because she didn't want me to have to do things in someone else's house. I helped cook when I could.

After we got our own place, I was working/going to school and she was taking 1 class. So she took over all the chores. The kitchen we had was small for two people to be busy in there so when I would try to help cook she would say I was in her way and so I got pushed out.

She wound up finishing school first and getting a job right out of school, but she kept doing everything around the house. I would help her carry laundry down to the laundry room when she'd ask and my back wasn't hurting too much to do so. But other than that she would clean the apt, cook, laundry, vacuum, mop, scrub bathrooms, tend to the cats, etc.

I realize that I should've been doing more around the house. I was really unhealthy almost pushing 400lbs at one point and the depression to boot so the amount of things I could do consistently wasn't much. I'm in a better place now thought, down to 285 and taking care of business around the house.

What type of work do you do here?

Are you asking what I can do to work on that? Well I'm looking for a new job. I have a bit of freedom now about where I can look for jobs, and GALing a whole lot more. Going out and meeting and interacting with new people.

In what way do you feel that you're "financially restrictive"? What do you mean by that?

She's been out of school and working for 3 years, I'm sitting at 2 years out. We have a lot of debt we've accrued in getting our degrees. We made more than 100K together last year but we have next to nothing to show for it because I was trying to be responsible and said we should pay off our debts instead of spending our money on stuff. So while she wanted to go on 2 cruises/vacations a year and buy $400 purses like her single co-worker who still lived with her parents, I insisted that we paid our debts and try to save up money for a down payment for a house. Meanwhile if I saw some game or trinket that I wanted for $5-$10 if I asked her if I could have it she would say yes.

Communication isn't always about LL necessarily. Can you please describe some examples of how you think that you two didn't communicate well?


Two recent examples

She stated recently that she thought the argument we had right before she left was over me not wanting to take the vacation we booked. What I was arguing for was spending less time with the OC because I felt my W becoming emotionally distant. I was trying to say we should spend time with them that weekend that she left because my back hurt and if we did spend time with them my back wouldn't have time to heal for the vacation and then we wouldn't be able to take the vacation. She insisted that she wanted to spend time with the OC that weekend, I asked her if that meant she didn't want to go on the vacation and she said yes because "[seeing the oc] is this weekend and this is what I want to do, [the vacation] is [2 weeks away] and i'm not concerned about that yet" or something like that. During BD, I told her I wanted us to go on this vacation together and that she deserved the vacation, she broke down crying saying that's all she had been wanting to hear.

Her company offered her a management position of a new facility in Florida. She competed for the position against one of her best friends from school. When they told the W that she got it I told her I was happy and excited for her but that I had hoped she didn't get it because I didn't want us to leave our life and friends here behind. BD day she stated that she interpreted that as me saying I didn't and wasn't going to go to Florida with her.

Combining a couple:
We learn our own patterns from FOO.
Growing up, what did you learn about emotions?
How was that modeled in your family?
Can you please let us know a bit more about your heritage and how it influences one's ability to hold grudges?
Where's your father in this picture? Are you the eldest? What is your mother like?

How did your ILs model theirs?
What were/are the dynamics you've observed of W's family? Parents? Siblings?

Not a whole lot of healthy models in my family. I think I mentioned my mom's codependency. I am the eldest son. Mom has said she was suicidal before I came along and that I saved her life by giving her a purpose to live. She has said that the brother and I are her whole reason for living and that we give her life meaning.

She's been the stereotypical overprotective, meddling, supportive, braggart mom. Her dad served in the military. I'm told he fought in 3 wars and came back a different man, tried to kill mom thinking she was his W at one point. Maternal grandparents divorced after that, mom had to testify against her dad during the court case. One of her brother's blamed her for tearing the family apart. They stopped talking after that. Wouldn't even be in the same room together until their father died. After that there was a period where they started talking again for maybe a year or two. The uncle then did something else to make my mom not want to talk to him. They still don't, he tried to sue my mom after their mother passed. The will settled that but just further separated them.

My parents are still married, Dad's still in the picture. Dad's the strong, silent, disciplinarian. He keeps his head down and worked a job he hated to keep the family fed. His dad all but disowned him for marrying a hispanic woman. I never really got to know that half of my family.

Mom's hispanic, Dad's mixed European. Each one has boasted of their heritage's infamous temper and ability to hold grudges (for generations if need be). Both had wicked tempers when I was growing up. When one wasn't listened to they yelled, if you still didn't listen the yelling got louder, after that the belt or paddle came out.

Mom regularly told us that they loved us, and they got us involved in lots of activities that we were interested in and they got involved as well.

Other emotions were hardly dealt with. One thing my mom has said repeatedly is that she never heard her father say he was sorry and that she was at least willing to admit she was wrong to her kids. 30 years and I would be hard pressed to use two hands to count the number of times she's done so.

As for the W, her family is very detached. Her parents seem to barely tolerate each other. Her dad wasn't very supportive, didn't go to her graduations, or encourage her to achieve anything. But allowed her to do what she wanted. Mom and dad never really seem to show her affection. She has mentioned that she never really got a lot of hugs or anything as a kid.

She has 2 half sisters, 1 step sister and had 1 half brother. He was killed when she was young. She the youngest of all of them. The next youngest is something like 12-13 years older than her. Her siblings have described the W has the unhappy miserable child, that the first time they had ever really seen her smile is when we started dating. She feels really only close to her youngest sister.

What does being supportive look like to you? How would you do this differently?

I think we each need to understand our individual needs to see what we each think makes each of ourselves happy. We then see how we can each help contribute to the other's happiness. Not out of expectation but because we care and want to be able to contribute to other persons happiness. Even if that means they want a D.

I sense that W is hinting at her own need for emotional intimacy that is lacking in the M. Thoughts?

I'm not sure. Here I think she's echoing herself mentioning that she felt more like a mother than a wife to me. That she felt more like a caretaker than an equal partner in a marriage. I feel like it's emotional intimacy plus something else but I don't know how to put that in words.

Again, we'd like to know your line of work to understand your mindset a bit better. Are you an engineer by any chance?

Have you seen Big Bang Theory?
Familiar with Dr. Sheldon Cooper, theoretical physicist?
I'm Dr. Miman2 theoretical chemist, also in academia where it's literally a publish or perish mentality.
The theory being developed has to be correct to be used by others and you need evidence to proved that it is correct.
Without that evidence then you have no proof the theory you're working on is correct.
A lack of or weak evidence makes your theory questionable at best and a joke/career killer at worst.


What do you want to do? Save the M? Throw in the towel?

I still want to save the M. At this point it's not looking good. She's not willing to talk, reach out, work on things or go to MC. She was complaining about how much it would cost to file and yet she did and paid a sheriff to serve the papers. Makes it seem like despite her lack of money she's determined to get through the D.

[Bob723]

Hello Miman2,

I think we all understand you are devasted by your stich. I certainly get it! But, you need to focus on YOU.

I posted this in mahhhty's thread, and thought you could benefit from it, too:

Now, this my seem a little odd at first, but I have been doing this for about 1 week and it seems to be helping me. It's one of those "daily affirmations" that you say outloud to yourself.

Here it is:
In the infinity of life where I am, all is perfect whole and complete. I now choose calmly and objectively to see my old patterns and I am willing to make changes. I choose to have fun doing this. I choose to react is though I have found a treasure when I discover something else to release. I see in feel myself changing moment by moment. Thoughts no longer have any power over me. I am the power in the world. I choose to be free. All is well in my world.

Bob

[Miman2]

Thanks Bob. That's a really good affirmation you have there.

I'll have to give it a try.

Its funny the way words work. Others might not understand how the word "devastation" doesn't even begin to explore the enormity of the disruption being in this position has brought to our mind, emotions, heart and very soul. If BD was bad, this ... this isn't just nuclear, it's like matter-antimatter annihilation. But some how "devastated" seems to get the point across.

I feel tested this afternoon. The sheriff asked that I drive myself to pick up my own divorce papers. All of a sudden I think of that laborious march He had to make to his own doom and feel as if I'm on the same path. A friend of mine said I should just "forget" and let the sheriff find me to serve me, since he's getting paid to do it anyway.

As vulgar as it sounds there have been "word porn" postings on imgur, FB, and pinrest that I've seen lately. Basically they're collections of powerful quotes, lines and poems that are able to spark pure emotions.

There are several I came across that have spoken volumes to me about how I feel about the W.

"Maybe we'll meet again, when we are slightly older and our minds less hectic, and I'll be right for you and you'll be right for me. But right now, I am chaos to your thoughts and you are poison to my heart."

"And I'd choose you; in a hundred lifetimes, in a hundred worlds, in any version of reality, I'd find you and I'd choose you"

"I'd still die for you and I'm trying to figure out whether you mean that much to me or I mean that little to myself."

"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says I'll try again tomorrow."

[Cadet]

Again, we'd like to know your line of work to understand your mindset a bit better. Are you an engineer by any chance?

Have you seen Big Bang Theory?
Familiar with Dr. Sheldon Cooper, theoretical physicist?
I'm Dr. Miman2 theoretical chemist, also in academia where it's literally a publish or perish mentality.
The theory being developed has to be correct to be used by others and you need evidence to proved that it is correct.
Without that evidence then you have no proof the theory you're working on is correct.
A lack of or weak evidence makes your theory questionable at best and a joke/career killer at worst.

Yes I know Dr Sheldon Cooper, or at least the character on TV.
I have a very scientific mind too.

Throw a ball up in the air and it returns to earth via gravity.
Right?

Unless you are in outer space and their is no gravity.

Believe it or not everything that is talked about and done here is very scientific.

Problem is that our EXPECTATIONS are that we are on earth and gravity will make the ball go up then down.

I would say it is more likely that you must learn to drink coffee while sitting on the ceiling using a fork.
Then you start to understand this stuff.
Or think - Alice in Wonderland!

This all really does have science behind it.
Do some research and you will start to understand.

[Bob723]

Thanks Bob. That's a really good affirmation you have there.

I'll have to give it a try.

You're welcome Miman2. I hope it you find it helpful. It will take awhile but try to say it at least once a day.

You are going thu devastating times now, but somehow you will make it.

Bob

[MrBond]

And have you talked to your L yet?

[Miman2]

I called 2 L the day I found out that the sheriff deputy was looking for me, trying to get quotes and ideas on what to do. I need to pick which one I want to go with. I'm starting to think of going for the more aggressive one. I think I'm 100% done at this point.

I got my paperwork. Her new address was on it. I went to see where she lived. She was just getting into the OM's car. I asked to talk about the cats. She didn't want to talk. She asked me to leave. I told her I would but I would like to know why she filed when just the week before she said she hadn't. She said she didn't love me anymore, she didn't want to work things out and that she had always intended on filing she just didn't have the money for it. Now with her second job she could afford it.

I asked what happened to our lunch. If I was supposed to call her, she said she got busy with work. I asked if she still wanted to do lunch. She said if there was a third person there, that with me showing up at her apt she was afraid to have lunch alone with me.

She asked me to leave and I did.
Stick a fork in it... I think it's done.