For the record. I was much more than a lighthouse for my wife. A lighthouse is a stationary EMOTIONLESS structure. It isn't human. I did sit back at times like a lighthouse. You can't chase a wayward everywhere everyday. But, strategically I also went out into the fog at times...pursued her and eventually steered her butt out of it. Doing so is, IMO, one of the main reasons we recovered so well. Prior to those actions my low self esteem wife never truly understood or believed I truly loved her or much of anything. Maybe she also didn't feel worth being fought for. But I couldn't just sit there "shining" and "hoping" while she fretted to and fro seemingly completely lost in the fog.
I think the pursuer/distancer concept works much better for women hoping to save their sanity and MAYBE save their marriage while dealing with a cheating husband. Men are much more likely to be cake eaters and losing their wife just isn't acceptable so when the wife distances...they pursue. Wayward wives don't. They often LOVE space and see stoic distancing as confirmation of their right to end it.
A wayward women NEEDS to be pursued a little (a dance perhaps) otherwise (they end up thinking) you just didn't and don't care and she's completely justified to divorce you.
All women (wayward or not) need to feel cherished at some level.
It's a delicate balance/dance "pursuing" a wayward yet not being desperate or needy. Dr. Huizenga calls it "charging neutral". MWD calls it a 180 (doing the opposite of what you'd normally do...which in this case is, I think, unemotionally standing back and letting her wander)
If you don't value/cherish your wife enough to emotionally risk stepping off the shore (you lighthouse) then who will?
If you want her back...isn't the Solo Book just another manipulation game? How long does one keep the lighthouse lit? Would you rather be rejected in the fog fighting for her or simply ignored while "standing" on the shore (like a lighthouse)?
I'm not suggesting or contemplating anyone running around in the fog indefinitely. What's the time limit? What's your emotional limit?
Something to consider.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Pursuers, like myself, have a difficult time distancing. we are made for relationships, connections. Not to pursue forces us to deal with our own incompleteness and emptiness, or fill it in with other things or people. Pursuers, and distancers, are on a scale of 1-10, Ten being the most severe. Pursuers in the 7-10 range have the most issues and the most extreme loneliness/emptiness, thus the need to fill it in. We run from ourselves but never quite escape. I am probably about an 8, so I know of what I speak.
See...I WAS NOT a pursuer. I was probably a 2 and my former wayward wife was an 9. When she "distanced" it wasn't really to "distance" from me, it was actually to "pursue" OM and she needed, wanted space and time from me (distance) to do so.
If I didn't pursue when we were married and she was in love with me (and pursuing me) why would she believe pursuing me ever again would be worthwhile? I had to "pursue" her or we never would have recovered. I had to 180 my core "non-pursuing" self and become a strategic pursuer for a time without being needy and desperate.
I was a workaholic so it wasn't that hard. I just spend a ton of time with her listening and having conversations without trying to teach her and then trying to distract her by interjecting fun (and backing off "distancing" from the serious nature of our predicament at the time) while spending even MORE time together. Eventually her love tank was filled up and she caught a case of the "feels" for me again and ever so slowly recovery commenced.
Now I'm talking in circles and cliches. I just don't agree with concept of standing there like an emotionless lighthouse waiting. It's conflict avoiding and the path to intimacy (your real goal) from withdrawal has to travel through some conflict. She's not going to wake up some day and decide to be in love with you again. Why is she going to love you because you just stood there for a really really long time?
Maybe it's as simple as girls like boys that fight for them.
Maybe not...I'm no expert.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
I just don't agree with concept of standing there like an emotionless lighthouse waiting. It's conflict avoiding and the path to intimacy (your real goal) from withdrawal has to travel through some conflict. She's not going to wake up some day and decide to be in love with you again. Why is she going to love you because you just stood there for a really really long time?
Maybe I am mis-reading you. There is a time and place for what you are saying. I dont think it is while they are in an active affair.
I am assuming you are saying after the affair is over and they are headed back in your direction. That we can agree on.
I just don't agree with concept of standing there like an emotionless lighthouse waiting. It's conflict avoiding and the path to intimacy (your real goal) from withdrawal has to travel through some conflict. She's not going to wake up some day and decide to be in love with you again. Why is she going to love you because you just stood there for a really really long time?
Maybe I am mis-reading you. There is a time and place for what you are saying. I dont think it is while they are in an active affair.
I am assuming you are saying after the affair is over and they are headed back in your direction. That we can agree on.
I'm not sure of the question but I'll try a bit to explain.
"intimacy (the real goal)" = The real goal of any technique or advice to help some one "divorce bust" or "save their marriage" is NOT just that the affair ends. It's a recovered and restored intimate marriage of extraordinary care far superior to any marriage previously known or it's just not worth it...TO EITHER SPOUSE.
As far as engaging while the affair remains active???? In this situation it is and it isn't? She still works with him so there isn't "NO CONTACT" but she's spending an awful lot of time and energy on her friendship with Defacto. Giving him an opportunity to meet her needs, occupy her time and energy and fill her love tank (which as long as there is no information that she's still having sexual contact with OM isn't a mistake)
A metaphor: A farmer discovers a fox in his henhouse. Does he have to wait for the fox to get full and/or just leave before heading out and doing anything? Plus, the fox will just come back another night and find a another way in, so why bother trying to fix it and fortify the henhouse from another attack? If the fox eats all the chickens maybe he'll move away to another area after that....THEN ~~~maybe~~~ I will fix (invest in) the henhouse (but why bother, I have no chickens anyway).
A real life example. I consoled one betrayed husband who was dejected because he'd been arrested for harassing the OM when all he did was confront the OM in the OM's place of business and tell OM to leave his wife alone. The affair was kind of over, maybe like this situation, but the OM still worked with his wife and the OM kept trying to keep it going. Lots of upset. Turned out being arrested worked to the betrayed husband's advantage because his wife wasn't happy that the OM had her husband arrested. She turned on OM. OM apparently revealed his true colors. She chewed him out and then quit her job. "No contact" achieved with a little "conflict".
All decent recoveries from infidelity that I know of journey through a complex and varying series of conflicts to get there.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Cadet and GB, I think we are about to beat the one dimensional example of a lighthouse into the ground here
GB, I think the example excels because it models strength, patience, and honor to a LBS tossing about and wallowing in despair and hopelessness. And a lighthouse does shine a light. The shining light could exemplify a LBS reconnecting with a wayward in some of those ways you mentioned.
Based on your good advice, I have tried to model a vulnerability and level of emotion in my recent interactions with STBXW. She knows my desire to postpone D. I just don't think I should be calling her up to chat or making plans to hang out with her right now. I feel that would just go to reinforce to her that we can be great friends despite the D.
But I'm not absolutely sure. That's why I'm here.
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
"A wayward women NEEDS to be pursued a little (a dance perhaps) otherwise (they end up thinking) you just didn't and don't care and she's completely justified to divorce you. "
Not necessarily. In fact, most WS's actually feel disgust towards the LBS. So for the LBS to even lightly pursue the WS is a bad idea. However, if interactions start to change, then pursuit has to change slightly as well.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
"A wayward women NEEDS to be pursued a little (a dance perhaps) otherwise (they end up thinking) you just didn't and don't care and she's completely justified to divorce you. "
Not necessarily. In fact, most WS's actually feel disgust towards the LBS. So for the LBS to even lightly pursue the WS is a bad idea. However, if interactions start to change, then pursuit has to change slightly as well.
Yeah, right, wouldn't want to make her mad.
IF you recover the thing a FORMER wayward wife will remember is you continued to pursue them (even if it's just a little...don't torture yourself) even when they FELT disgusted by you and they were at their worst.
Feelings lie.
In those instances, the RECOVERABLE wayward wives aren't truly disgusted by you...she's just protecting, rationalizing and justifying her affair. In recovery she'll be disgusted that she was even disgusted. They shockingly hardly even seem to remember it.
The NON-RECOVERABLE wayward wives get more disgusted and more nasty which just expedites the process of NON-recovery along instead of waiting 2 or 3 years standing there waiting too scared to make them upset and ending up divorced anyway.
Where is the balance between waiting and merely getting a wife back because the affair ended and being a tad more aggressively (non-conflict avoiding) pushing the agenda one way or another? IMO, it's an individual determination or breaking point that should be determined by a guy like Defacto at about this stage in the process (after the shock of 1st month when he's thinking obviously more clearly but before the divorce has even gotten under way
On the one hand, some guys might save their marriage by waiting indefinitely whereas another guy could have saved it had he been bit more aggressive and appearing to care but he waited instead and eventually gave up, moved on, starting dating or whatever before waiting would have worked.
Again, just my opinion. The tad more aggressive guys that saved their marriage seem to me to have better recoveries.
Now next weeks episode: what is "A tad more aggressive"?
Have a safe weekend.
The internet is 90% complaining and entitlement and I hate it because I deserve better!
Have you thought about removing yourself from the friend zone? You seem to be a good friend to your W. Yes you don't reply to some texts and don't answer some calls but from what I can read here you're overly friendly.
A WAW in an active A is not going to be attracted to an H that knows she is engaging with OM and still playing house.
Who is the man she was attracted to? Let her miss you. Let her wonder what you're doing. She may act out more as a result of this initially but I think you need some boundaries. Does W need to be calling you just to chat on non financial or kid related issues? Do you want to be her best friend or her husband?
Have you thought about removing yourself from the friend zone? You seem to be a good friend to your W. Yes you don't reply to some texts and don't answer some calls but from what I can read here you're overly friendly.
A WAW in an active A is not going to be attracted to an H that knows she is engaging with OM and still playing house.
Who is the man she was attracted to? Let her miss you. Let her wonder what you're doing. She may act out more as a result of this initially but I think you need some boundaries. Does W need to be calling you just to chat on non financial or kid related issues? Do you want to be her best friend or her husband?
T, Thanks so much for your response!
I agree that I have made an effort to be establish a connection with STBX in the last few weeks. My reasoning was that I had already played the stoic, somewhat aloof H who was happy either way. I thought that if the A was winding down in some fashion, it would be important for STBX to feel some type of emotional connection with me going forward. I haven't been pursuing, just trying to maximize each interaction, no matter how inconsequential.
However, I admit that I could feel STBX moving me to the friend zone a bit and this has troubled me some. The problem is I'm not entirely sure what to do about this. In the last 24 hours, I have received feedback to strategically pursue OR keep doing what I'm doing OR essentially go dark. All of these approaches have their merits. I'm just struggling with choosing one that fits my sitch.
What's some advice for moving STBX away from the friend zone?
Me:35 W:30 D:4 S:1 Bomb: 01/08/15, discovered EA & PA In House Separation: 01/14/15 W moves out: 04/05/15 I tell OM's W about A: 04/15/15 W serves D papers: 06/19/15 Mediation: 09/16/15 D final: 12/01/15
