gan 6 - return to human be-ing

[jim0987]

So maybe your Dad should send an invoice instead

[Ggrass]

We had a couple of dry days.

I better go do some sort of an update.

[gan]

So confession time. I know I’ve painted the picture of being pretty together but...

Right now I am fighting the urge to go out and pick up. I live in an area where there are a lot of night clubs and bars. It probably wouldn’t be so hard. I admit I’ve been out with work colleagues and had a few drinks. One by one each pealed off to head home to a partner or catch up with friends. None know I’ve come out of a 15 year relationship and going home…well...means going home alone.

Lately I’ve become infatuated with the guy who owns the coffee shop I go to every morning. Actually this is now the third “coffee guy” I’ve found myself a bit infatuated by (which is funny because H didn’t drink coffee). On various days this guy has complimented me on the dress I was wearing, my nail polish, my yoga tights…all brightly coloured at the time (which amuses me as I don’t usually wear bright colours…but have done so a bit post-BD in an effort to break the mould). Last weekend when it was raining he said there’s only one place to be on days like this…and I finished by saying at home in bed. Sheesh.

Tonight I find myself wishing that I would go out and find him there…

[Zues126]

Hey Gan, already posted a reply but wanted to post on your thread too. I read this again to refresh myself, you haven't posted a lot lately so I wanted to make sure I was up on your sitch.

You mentioned feeling like a WAW that was too committed to leave. I can definitely relate. Shoot, my W and I probably didn't talk for about 3 years added up out of the last 5. We were just STUCK. No way to interact without going in the same destructive circle, so we just stuck it out and hoped the other person would change. Well, I was working with IC and I'm sure she was doing her best, but you know, it was pretty bad. Like many LBS's I guess I just never thought we'd D and that we had time to regroup and try again. Anyway, I really just want to acknowledge that while you were committed, I understand it was a painful and hard M for you as well. And I REALLY respect the fact that you stayed there through it all. Truly.

As for the comment about not getting to anger yet...yes, that is interesting. For most LBS's what I've seen is they stuff their feelings in the beginning, trying to be the perfect spouse to win their WAS back. Then when they feel that hasn't worked they get really mad, either because of that disappointed expectation of saving the M, or because they look back at all of the pain THEY endured during the M and feel like they were fools. They feel stupid to have put up with such a bad M, they feel taken advantage of, they feel foolish to have made such compromises and investments with the idea that at least they'd have commitment only to find that commitment wasn't as committed as they thought.

Again, I strongly admire the fact that you aren't tearing apart your ex for his failures, and that you're actually still primarily focused on your own growth and room to improve as a W.

I do think you should keep tuning in to your emotions, as it would surprise me if you didn't have a lot of anger in there somewhere. My understanding is that suffering leads to resentment, and I know you've suffered. You're the kind of person that could let go of that resentment, but you have to realize you're holding on to it first. Of course, I don't profess to know, maybe you have just grown so much so fast you have already forgiven him for being flawed and have let it go already...I'm no mind reader. But I like the fact that you're asking yourself that questions.

All in all I'm very impressed and hope you're having a great weekend!

[gan]

Thanks Zues. As I mentioned on BW05s thread I'm moving our convo over here.

Have to confess that I have only quickly scanned your above posts but I jumped over to this thread after reading some stuff on JellyB's thread. This was was a big issue in our R too and I hope we may all learn something through talking about it.

A few of disclaimers:
1. I'm a woman with what I suspect is a normal sex drive (probably above normal based on what I read), but I was the "low desire spouse" in our relationship
2. I have a PhD (totally unrelated to the subject matter...but I get the pressures there and experienced my own little MLC just after finishing)
3. I'm far from saving my M...but I have learned a lot though this debacle

So....the thing I have come to understand through all of this is that men and women are different and no one benefits by making the other person feel like there is something wrong with them when they don't want sex.

Zues I hear you - my H evidently felt the same. We had some painful conversations where he told me he felt that way. At the time all I could do (like you BW) was say you shouldn't feel that way - I love you, I'm attracted to you, I'm not deliberately withholding from you, it's just that my body doesn't work like yours and I don't feel like it right now. I didn't validate his feelings and I acknowledge that now and feel very sad about it. But I was honest about my feelings and he didn't validate those either. In fact, H labelled me as the low desire spouse so much so that he couldn't see that - like him - I actually genuinely wanted more sex. We were totally stuck in this dynamic. His watching porn did not help (not that I was particularly against it, but that he evidently turned to it instead of me).

Here's what I want to convey - there is something not quite motivating enough about the message that women should "just do it" (tomorrow at lunch say). I just don't think it works that way. If it did, all I would be doing is letting you use my body. That doesn't make me feel so great. Would it make you feel great as the man knowing that was what I was doing? Or would you rather I actually be really into you when we ML? A lot of the sex books seem to push the "just do it" message. Like we should "just do it" and if we can't then there is something medically wrong with us. Well that idea doesn't make my juices flow either...

BW05 - if this is an area you want to work on then I recommend you check out the books by David Schnarch. He presents a different message - that there is a "high desire spouse" and "low desire spouse" on every issue in a relationship. The low desire spouse controls the outcome - be that having sex, having kids, etc. Like even now - the WAS is the low desire spouse - they are controlling the outcome, yes? The low desire partner has a choice - dig in their heals and commit to their way of things or they accept their partners way of things and learn not to feel resentment. Somehow by seeing this as the natural balance of things I feel more able to take on the sex issue as a matter of my own integrity. It doesn't evoke the usual "there is something wrong with me" mentality (cos that doesn't make me feel particularly sexy), rather "I can grow and deal with this" mentality. I only wish I had discovered these books before BD.

Zues - same for you. Check out Schnarch. Maybe there are other areas where you were the low-desire spouse and failed to move yourself forward in a way that made it easier for your wife to connect with you? Maybe that's why she couldn't have sex more frequently with you?

Thank you for the reply Gan. Let me first acknowledge that this is an extremely emotionally charged issue. This is an issue that played the primary role in the destruction of my family, perhaps yours, and certainly millions of other couples. Just reading your post evoked a strong reaction in me that compelled me to sit on it for a while, not because you were wrong, but because it flashed me back to how I felt during my M for years. Likewise, I recognize this may be a equally sensitive subject. I appreciate you replying and discussing this, but given how raw this is for me at least I'll try to step a little lightly.

I DO need to make a bigger point of understanding how the low desire spouse feels. I will admit that though I've thought about it, my feelings were so strong it was easy to just dismiss the outlook you described as "wrong" in the past because it was so awful to me. As a result, I failed to do my part to bridge the gap and see if there was a way through. As you mentioned, there are MANY things I could have done much better to get different results, and in no way am I pointing all the blame on my STBX, or on you in your R. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be the low drive partner, to feel used, cheapened, disrespected, coerced, manipulated, abused, and even violated. No, I will admit. I didn't see past my own feelings in the R. They felt so powerful I just felt that my partner must be in the wrong.

I learned an interesting point of view about M...BOTH PARTNERS MUST MEET THE OTHER PERSON 100% OF THE WAY. The idea is that if both people want to meet 50% of the way there it will never work, because both people will view that 50% so differently and it won't be enough. Only when both give 100% can they actually bridge the gap.

Similarly, I feel that sex is a funny subject. It's not really a "Need" in the sense of food or water. But it's not really a "want" to the high desire spouse like a new car or a vacation to Hawaii.

For a high drive spouse to consider it a "need" is dangerous, as it can lead to entitlement, and all of the destructive behavior above, much of which I exhibited. Taken to the extreme, the idea that the low desire spouse should submit to the high desire spouse 100% of the time, any time he/she was turned on or horny...well, that wouldn't be possible, and the low desire spouse would quickly feel like a glorified blow up doll, emotionally trodden on, used, cheapened, and hurt beyond belief.

I also think that for a low desire spouse to NOT consider it a "need" is very dangerous as well. Just as I have admitted that I don't understand the other side of the coin, I feel that low desire spouses ******SEVERELY UNDERESTIMATE******* how much it IS a need to the high desire spouse. I would guess it's underestimated by a factor of 10. The LDS is not even in the right ballpark with the damage it causes.

So to me the question about "would you want sex if your partner felt you were simply letting me use their body" looks as alien as asking "would you want me to feed my hungry baby when I'm not in the mood and feel like I'm simply being a servant?"

The answer for me is "yes", because although I feel loved when my partner wants to meet my needs, I also feel loved when my partner CHOOSES to meet my needs even when they don't always feel like it. It says 'I love you' to put my needs in front of your mood. At least some of the time. It doesn't have to feel arousing or appealing, but it will keep the high desire spouse from feeling so awful they feel their only shot at happiness in life is to leave the M or seek fulfillment outside of it.

I'll back it off a bit and say again that the answer isn't that the LDS spouse becomes completely subservient, stuffs their own feelings perpetually, and becomes the one that feels traumatized all day. The point is that NEITHER spouse should feel that way, and both parties need to understand that no matter how strongly they feel their point of view on this issue is right, BOTH points of view are right, and somehow through love, communication, compromise, and both sacrificing more than they ever thought they could...maybe it's possible.

I don't have the answers. These are just my thoughts. I am sending you a big hug and sincerely thanking you for voicing your feelings respectfully. I feel there is a lot we could learn from each other and I am looking forward to becoming a better person from this discussion.

Vets, I'd love to hear from you. Particularly Starsky...I understand you've been through a love starved marriage. Could someone page Starsky?

So...where to pick up...?

Zues - I get you when you say you feel loved when your partner CHOOSES to meet your needs even when they don't always feel like it. On most issues I would agree, but sex (for me) is a bit different as it means (to me) putting my body out there in an exceptionally personal way. The idea of having sex when I don't want to invokes some pretty strong emotions in me (that relate to women's empowerment etc).

I think it was the book HTIYMWTAI that hit the message home to me that the high desire spouse feels totally rejected when the low desire spouse turns them down. I remember thinking Oh No! I was doing that and my H tried to tell me that. I feel dreadful about it. The things is, when he tried to tell me this I responded the only way I knew how at the time - by saying that he shouldn't take me not wanting sex at a particular time as being indicative of me not loving him or not being attracted to him. From my side it didn't work that way, it wasn't the message I was trying to send at all. I did however hear his message that he wanted more sex and so I started reading up on ways to may me more into it which prompted thoughts like - why can't I do this, there must be something wrong with me (a perspective that he reinforced by making me feel like it was my problem rather than our problem). Nothing kills your sex drive like feeling like that.

The reality was actually far from this.

As per my post before this one, you can see that I'm struggling with the lack of physical touch lately (it's up there with words of affirmation as an LL for me). So while I do desire sex, I have a lowER desire for sex than my H. In my next relationship I may be the highER desire spouse. It's a relative position...and viewing it as such brings a very different perspective to the issue for me, especially since there is a high/low desire position for everything in a relationship. For instance, my H was the lower-desire spouse when it came to kids. That infuriated me to no end. We had always talked about having kids...it was more a question of time. But we never took the step, because he wouldn't. By being able to relate my position on sex to his position on kids, it actually takes the particular issue out of it and I can see that it's more about people being able to find ways to meet their partner AND learn not to carry the resentment that could potentially go with that. So coming back to your point about your partner CHOOSING to meet your needs - I feel that is an option that is more available to me now, especially if I can see that my partner is also committed to working through the issues where they too are stuck and holding us both back. Does than make any sense?

[JellyB]

Gan, hearing ya sista on this one! I'm in recovery, my usual pattern is to act out in this manner upon breakup. My rule at present is to be man free till Christmas. But I truly appreciate your feelings about coffee guy ( I have one of my own at present - what is it about them??? ) lol.

[JellyB]

Gan, hearing ya sista on this one! I'm in recovery, my usual pattern is to act out in this manner upon breakup. My rule at present is to be man free till Christmas. But I truly appreciate your feelings about coffee guy ( I have one of my own at present - what is it about them??? ) lol.

[Vanilla]

Sorry wanting to ponder a little

I put my response on BWs thread. I do think that at any point after the initial lime ranch there will always be a mismatch of Iibido, but the gaps will change like a concertina.

Anyway my response

BW

Please attach to your feelings, recognise them even the awkward ones about H. Depending on the categorisation there are six primary states or feelings, sadnesst, trust, joy, surprise, anger and fear. If you google Plutchek there are eight add contempt and anticipation. plutchek model shows that other emotions are a mix of these.

My own personal philosophy is to think of this as a giant DJ mixing table with sliders up and down and on/off switches for each glider. All of us have a natural preset. Lets take anger as an example, assume we are at peace, just waking from rest, all the switches are off. Suddenly we feel angry as a memory arises, all the switches are off and anger comes in. It switches on at the preset level.

If the preset for a certain emotion (the slider is almost full up) is high, we flood with the emotion. Wait two minutes and it will slide to a lower level. Then we can consciously slide our slider controls: raise the level or lower it. We have no control over the preset., but we can manage the preset. This gives us a 'choice' in the level we feel of the emotion after the first two minutes. Some individuals have lower presets. They just may not feel at high levels bot positive or negative; others of us have high presets with swings or moods. We learn as adults to manage these.

Joy and Trust together give us love for example. love is a result of having joy and trust as emotional sliders high.

For each emotion there is a result. The result of anticipation joy and trust in a particular measure result in lust or sexual desire. That is what we mean by control over these. In my view sex is neither a need nor a want but a result, an action. By adding anticipation to our mix we can increase the result. The desire. Some individuals require touch to trigger anticipation, so once they begin to relax and flow into sex the lust responses kick in. Hence the 'just do it' attitude. Once they start its ok but until that point sex is a chore or a requirement for their R.

I felt it was important for me to understand body chemistry and states. If I looked further then I discovered that the electronics in my mixer board had bio chemical components so with the switch comes a chemical reaction in my body. Some bio chemicals and hormones, (for example adrenalin perhaps triggers anger etc) are in certain standard combinations or presets and result in standard responses, flight, fight or freeze body reactions. we can not control these, some refer to these as limbic or lizard reactions. So something in the environment triggers the on/off presets resulting in body State (feelings) followed by reactions.

Your feelings are yours, please embrace them.

Detach from your spouses actions not your own feelings.

For those who struggle, who tell themselves, I have low desire then know that is likely a result of low anticipation. increase the thoughts of those aspects of sex that are enjoyed (even if this is pleasure of your spouse) this will increase the anticipation. Then just do it, the body needs sex, it keeps one young, puts a spring in the step.

I used to confuse that my H did not want sex with low desire. It wasn't or isn't low desire , my H is using sex or lack of it as control. H says 'no' then he feels he has the control and power. Now H wanted sex but V has said 'no way, not if you are cahasing POW'. I don't have low desire for sex, just no desire for H.

This is the way I understand., hope it helps you as a starter.

V

Just musing........

(JB, got these from the DBT site which I found whilst looking for abuse help. There is a free learning module on there also bits from Al Turtle too. I know you love these corners of interesting bits n bobs)

Whilst cleaning. Hard to post with marigolds.

V

[gan]

So V - do I take from your post above that you were the high(er)-desire spouse?

[Ggrass]

I think I was the higher in the beginning. Then that flipped due to being put down so much as stress increased desire decreased.
thus when I asked I to like nil got told no. Thus the circle of resentments and hurts started.

The sliding scale makes a huge lots of sense, to me. I tryed the just do it and was rejected to the spiral continued. Yes as was stated same drama same issues just over and over and over and over bigger and bigger