I get ya Wonka. I hear exactly what you're saying and I do believe that your argument is both powerful and says what I'm saying: there cannot be "forgiveness" if it's seared into the memory forever.
If this is the case ... I am not sure I have ever forgiven in my life even when I thought I had.
I read this thread a couple times via the phone and it really had me thinking. I am not so sure I will ever forget this MLC phase, how could I .. its been honestly the toughest 3-4 years of my life. Even now, its still fresh, the pain and hurt .... do I want payback?, revenge?, her to suffer? ... no I really do not. Am I still hurting .. absolutely .. what has taken me by surprise is the new intensity of this hurt and pain that flooded back as W tries to reconnect with me, and no .. she has not made things 'right' but then again .. how could she possibly do that? Similar to the story that ran last week, (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/13/mother-hugs-daughters-killer_n_5490692.html) teenage boy took a gun to school on the bus and accidentally shot this woman's daughter, at first they went after this kid and then the mother had a change of heart, the kid now is going to go on a educational tour with this woman and speak about the incident .. that is his penance ... does it even come close to payback .. no, but its not possible for him nor anyone to bring back that woman's daughter. This woman will never forget this, is there no hope for forgiveness? I am not sure ... I think the best we can do as humans is to empty our heart of the anger, accept what happened is what happened, and make a conscious effort to move forward without this emotional baggage weighing us down like an anchor. I admittedly am not there yet .. the hurt has come back stronger than I was expecting ... seemed it was easy to chalk up the end of my M to the MLC and the A, pick up my brokenness and move on, its a different approach when faced with the possibility of having to pull down the same walls that used to protect in order to be open to being vulnerable again.
Not a big moving weekend. W went up north to her Class reunion, she had S Sat morning and we ended up meeting for lunch, as has been the issue lately something seemed off with S. W got up to grab some soup so I took the chance to talk to S and find out what was wrong... he shared that sometimes he felt invisible when we were together as a family. I talked to him about it, validated as he has a point .. seems W and I have been talking alot trying to get through things day by day .. so S is an obvious causality in the conversation field. I sent S off to grab us some ice cream which he quickly became excited about ... took that time to share with W what happened, she actually got it and was very open to changing how we interact when S is around to include him more. That night she drove north and S and I had a man-cave night ... really enjoyed our time together.
Sunday morning S and I went to church, did some grocery shopping and went back to my place .. .he played a bit while I cleaned ... GAL .. lol. W TM asking if I wanted anything from a famous bakery up north .. I told her no thank you ... but she brought back some things anyways. Acts of service is her LL. She called on the drive back ... was a barrage of 20 questions that caught me off guard and started to annoy me a bit, She asked why I was so distant, asked if I was upset she left town ... I told her I was not upset .. she kept on me ... as she does until I finally shared some things I have been dealing with. We talked a bit about it .. she keeps bringing up MC, she feels that is how we will reconnect, improve our communication, save the M. I told her my concerns ... told her I was still not certain OM is out of the picture, I shared I still do not trust her ... then she started to spew until I firmly told her I was not going to be treated that way any longer, then she quickly backed off and apologized. She shared how she was frustrated and lost as far as what to do, how to 'fix' this ... made me think about all these posts on forgiveness ... how can someone 'fix' the destruction left after a MLC crisis ... they can't. She also shared she is talking to the priest tonight after work, this one surprised me a bit honestly, I did not think she would go through with that.
Thing is ... she is trying, very hard. and I am walled up like Ft Knox, do I want to be this way .. absolutely not, but I am .. I am not right when I am around her lately, the triggers seems to be everywhere at the moment ... billboards remind me of the A, even last night we are watchign a movie together, its time to put S down... he headed off to her bed (our old bed .. same bed her and OM used for the A) and we were going to pray ... I must have had it on my face as W quickly talked S into sleeping in his bed. I had a near anxiety attack thinking .. no way on earth can I pray in that room let alone kneel beside THAT bed ... I did not have to say anything, W seemed to pick up on it but not a word was said. (I had shared about a month ago how her place, the couch, and the bed are serious triggers for me) I have slowly gotten over the place ... and for the most part the couch .. that bed is a big one .. I would just prefer it to be burned.
Anyways I am just struggling here, she shared with me pictures from her reunion, even showed me some old pictures her cousin sent of her grandparents from another country .. she is trying to connect and engage. At this point its hard to argue the MC thing, I think we could remain stuck here if something does not give. OM seems clearly out of the picture as far as I can tell, She told me yesterday she wants her family back, I pointed out there just does not seem to be anything that includes her and I.. she told me I was her family .. me and S. MC might be able to give us/me some tools to use to get past this and communicate better, seemed to be a running theme over the weekend.
Why are you so dead set against MC?! Many people here know that MC is required to get couples to navigate through issues that tore apart a couple and figure out a way forward.
You two just cannot afford to do a DIY marriage recovery. Professionals are needed to aid you two in getting on the same page as a couple. I admire your W's persistence in seeking a counselor...a smart cookie!
It is not longer a case of "D, E, F happens, then we'll see MC." You are not being fair to your wife, to yourself, to the marriage, and to the family by refusing MC.
You two definitely need to heal together..not through a DIY approach. What you two need is a neutral outside party with the appropriate credentials to support you as you navigate through a new marriage that is Mr. and Mrs. Cali 2.0.
Drop your hard-headed approach for the GREATER good: the M and the family deserve it.
I concur with Wonka - go for the MC, learn about yourself, your wife and save your FAMILY. The Gottman Institute is suppossedly the best and they have trainied folks just about everywhere - check here to see if there is one in your area. I am sure there is.
Why are you so dead set against MC?! Many people here know that MC is required to get couples to navigate through issues that tore apart a couple and figure out a way forward.
You two just cannot afford to do a DIY marriage recovery. Professionals are needed to aid you two in getting on the same page as a couple. I admire your W's persistence in seeking a counselor...a smart cookie!
It is not longer a case of "D, E, F happens, then we'll see MC." You are not being fair to your wife, to yourself, to the marriage, and to the family by refusing MC.
You two definitely need to heal together..not through a DIY approach. What you two need is a neutral outside party with the appropriate credentials to support you as you navigate through a new marriage that is Mr. and Mrs. Cali 2.0.
Drop your hard-headed approach for the GREATER good: the M and the family deserve it.
I was dead set against it because of the pain from the last one ... I wanted to be certain OM is out of the picture We went in May, she had absolutely no interest in saving the M, it was a half hearted 'there I tried' move all the while OM was in the background ... turns out they were both doing the excact same thing so they could be together once all the MC failed). I am starting to really lean towards setting up the appt... I am at a point now I think we really need it if this is going to be fixed, feels like a holding pattern at the moment
Those fears are understandable...however, they are YOURS to own and process. Continuing to hold W hostage against your own fears isn't right at all...especially when she's really asking for MC from a genuine and sincere standpoint. In fact, she's skating on the edge of begging for it. You wouldn't want to have W to have a bad taste in her mouth from her end.
In time, there will be an opportunity for you to bring it ^^ up during one of those MC sessions.
Those fears are understandable...however, they are YOURS to own and process. Continuing to hold W hostage against your own fears isn't right at all...especially when she's really asking for MC from a genuine and sincere standpoint. In fact, she's skating on the edge of begging for it. You wouldn't want to have W to have a bad taste in her mouth from her end.
In time, there will be an opportunity for you to bring it ^^ up during one of those MC sessions.
We talked about it Sunday, I was holding back just because I was unsure of her intentions .. to be honest this turn around came on rather quickly, part of me felt it was a case of ... "Oh .. the A with OM didn't pan out, let me go back to choice #2 and see if I can salvage that" .. like you said .. MY fears and issues that I had to come to terms with.
The issues that have resurfaced for me I have been giving thought to, are they more issues to handle in IC, or MC ... the more thought I gave them the more I realized its more of the MC type.
I agree with the others. Just give it a try and see how it feels. Voice your concerns upfront so the counselor knows where you are coming from. Your fears are very valid and understandable.
Me 48 H 46 S 11 M 2004 BD 8/13 H moved out 2/15 -live in the present, enjoy the beauty around and within you, explore your new future-
I just want to say one thing to AJ and then I want to give this thread back to Cali.
AJ, you have given me a lot to think about. Thank you for that. Here's what I realized..they are just words...labels, really. We can give them whatever weight we want to. What matters is how one feels. I have no malice for my xh. I know I wish him peace truly. I accept who he is and I am not here to judge him. He has done some horrific things, but, that is on him. So, whatever one wants to call that, I am ok with, because I know what is in my heart and in the end, that is what matters.
Luke, I want you to know that I totally understand your reluctance. You are self protecting and there isnt anything wrong with that. I guess it comes down to what you want. If you want a chance at restoring your marriage, you will need to take the next step.
Honestly, you may get hurt, that's the truth of it. You could also have an amazing marriage one day.
I think it comes down to fear for you. Fear of a lot of things.
I get it.
It is important to find the right person because sometimes therapists cause more harm than good.
You have new tools now, yea? You have been through the worst of it and weathered it.
Sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and see where you land.
And choices. We can feel one way and choose another if we're not honest. Sometimes it starts with the choice and the feelings come later, no?
Cali, Wonka and Ur are right. The fears are yours to conquer. It's understandable, but regardless of what happens, you'll need to face those fears and conquer them. There are no guarantees when it comes to people. There is intent and choice (free will). Your choice is whether or not to face those fears or be ruled by them.
You may have noticed that your W is sincere. It comes through in your posts. You can hide behind the wall and be a slave to the fears or you can choose otherwise and see what you can do to grow. To face your fears.
The bed for example. It's an inanimate object that "represents" your fear and hurt. It's symbolic and one day you may very well take it to field and set it on fire. Or you may choose to sleep on it. Or avoid it altogether. But I cannot imagine you want to look back over your life and realize you were ruled by fear about anything. That doesn't jive with who you have become.
Can we as humans forgive? Yes, Cali we can. It's a narrow path to be sure that many can't walk. It's not natural for us. It's not in our DNA, but we can get to a place where the actions and hurt have no power over us. We can forgive the debt owed and over time, the memory loses it's bite. It fades to nothing. We remember the event at a high level, because it's part of our lives, but we no longer remember the hurt. Like a bad cold in a sense.
We can forgive but it's not our natural self. We can't do it alone. We can't argue our way out of it or rationalize our forgiveness. We can choose and work to make that choice real. We can with the help of the person that harmed us. We can trust again.
A choice. An action. A step in that direction... Fear is not what we were made for either, Cali.
AJ
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter" MLK Put the glass down... "Yesterday I was clever so I wanted to change the world Today I am wise, so I am changing myself."
