My First Break, Light Shines Yonder

[MrBond]

"I dont want her to plateau, I want her think "oh he didn't even say Thank-you, is he that rude/indifferent/angry". Obviously I dont want her to think rude or angry. "

Everything is about what YOU WANT or DON'T WANT. You keep trying to control her thoughts. Just do what you think needs to be done and not think about what her reaction will be.

[Pyrite]

this is getting old Mr Bond. Context. DBing is manipulative. There are even passages devoted to this in DR.

My controlling is nowhere near the league you are implying. I never forced her to do anything. My reaction was to be grumpy, or rather just sad. Reading all the other posts here in the same vain - I am small fry.

What I think needs to be done? hmmmm. I think my girls deserve a family AND that wasn't that far out of reach not so long ago. I would like to get back there. The biggest obstacle to working in this is her attitude. So yes, as per the LRT, explicitly, I am attempting to solicit a response from her that is conducive to the direction I want things to go.

i can anticipate your response that the biggest obstacle is in fact ME. But that is wrong, I am willing and able to change. And whether I have or not is not something my W will even be in a position to judge while she has this attitude. If she judges I have not then we can go our separate ways, and I have more work to do for myself.

[MrBond]

"DBing is manipulative."

Still don't get it do you? Myself and others have already been through this with you. DB is not manipulative. It's doing what you should have been doing in the first place. Doing what gets a positive response in your WAS. That's how you were when you first dated and got M'd. You forgot that along the way.

"My controlling is nowhere near the league you are implying."

Really? All I did was point out what YOU wrote. You don't seem to get that yet.

"I never forced her to do anything. My reaction was to be grumpy, or rather just sad. Reading all the other posts here in the same vain - I am small fry."

Then you need to read the posts more carefully. Especially the ones from those of us who actually saved our M's.

"The biggest obstacle to working in this is her attitude. So yes, as per the LRT, explicitly, I am attempting to solicit a response from her that is conducive to the direction I want things to go.

i can anticipate your response that the biggest obstacle is in fact ME. But that is wrong, I am willing and able to change. "

You really don't get it do you? You haven't changed. You keep saying you have, yet time and time again you've proven in your actions and words here that you haven't. Then when you get called out on it, rather than going through and seeing what we pointed out that you haven't realized, you insist on saying we're wrong and you're right.

There is alot of resentment in you, I get that. But you can't let it go. Like I mentioned before, I've seen dozens of posters like you and they all sounded like you. They never saved their M's because they were more interested in talking than listening. But that's your choice.

[Cadet]

i can anticipate your response that the biggest obstacle is in fact ME.
But that is wrong, I am willing and able to change. "

You really don't get it do you? You haven't changed. You keep saying you have, yet time and time again you've proven in your actions and words here that you haven't. Then when you get called out on it, rather than going through and seeing what we pointed out that you haven't realized, you insist on saying we're wrong and you're right.

There is alot of resentment in you, I get that. But you can't let it go. Like I mentioned before, I've seen dozens of posters like you and they all sounded like you. They never saved their M's because they were more interested in talking than listening. But that's your choice.

Mr Bond is spot on in his advice here.

DB'ing is counterintuitive, so sometime what seems like should be up is down and when you think you should look left it is right.
If you are acting the same way in real life as you act here you are going to be in for a long ride.

DB101 says start with a beginners mind
Throw everything you "know" out the window and start from scratch.

Whether the biggest obstacle is YOU or not - the only person that YOU can CONTROL is YOU.
SO that is the best place to start.

[Zues126]

Hahaha Py. You got in trouble

Sorry man, I know how you feel. As you know I am supercompetitive, and if you read my last post you'll know I was in a halfway house for a while to get back on the grid. Well, the whole time I was there counselors were all over the place. Anything you did was a diagnosis. If you thought someone was overreacting you were "defensive". If you got irritated with something you had an "anger issue". Shoot, I wasn't even allowed to play chess with the others because I had a "gaming addiction".

It got to the spot where I was just like "sheesh, these people are the crazy ones!"

Then a funny thing happened. We had group therapy. I listened to everyone else's stories and was just like "wtf, these people are whacked". They would tell stories about their lives, and the counselors would call them on stuff, and they'd rationalize, twist and squirm, and avoid facing reality. I remember thinking they were all crazy, and none of them were accountable. One by one. No one would own their *&@$. They all had problems. None of them would admit it.

Then the counselor got to me and I thought he was crazy because he kept pushing and prodding, challenging, and I was like "dude, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, I'm fine".

It finally hit me- maybe...just maybe...if everyone else in this room had problems and was dodging them...even though I *FELT* fine...maybe I was actually doing the same thing.

And thus I understood the power of group therapy.

Py, it's not all or nothing. It's not like you're horribly flawed, everything you do is wrong, everything you say is stupid, and everything you believe is backwards. Just 98% of it. KIDDING.

But whether you are 20% or 80% on the right track, you're not perfect. And it is WAY too soon for you to think you've got it solved. So when Bond or the others focus on nothing but flaws, you can defend yourself and explain that you're 75% on track or whatever...or you can listen and understand that they're trying to refocus you on the areas you're NOT.

Why don't they give you "props" for the distance you've already come? I had an employee once that was doing a failing job. I would have to terminate him if he didn't hit his sales goals. He made small improvements but was still short of target. I tried to give him "positive reinforcement" about his improvements, I didn't want to be harsh and not recognize where he'd gotten better. But guess what. 60 days later I had to terminate him. Looking back I really wish I'd said "I want to recognize your efforts as improvement, however they are short of target, and I cannot accept this performance because if I do today then I will accept terminating you in 60 days. I don't want to do that so I will tell you that while I appreciate your strives, I need X from you before you leave this week." At least then I would've done my part.

I know you're learning a lot. The fact that you're deliberating on your replies, not doing it reactively, are trying to steer your ship off of character, not burning bridges...those are great starts. But ultimately you want to save your M. That is the goal that matters. Until that happens you have to continue to learn and grow, and that requires humility.

PS- I love your participation in the boards. Keep posting, and relax. This is a marathon, you can't win today.

[Pyrite]

sorry for my outburst(s).

i will reply further later after I get a chance to read replies again.

my main point is highlighted though in replies - Cadet and Zeus are helpful. Mr Bond is condescending to the point of rudeness. I honestly in no way claim to have clean hands. My point about manipulative and Mr Bonds responses are semantical. IF DBing was as benevolent as Mr Bond seems to be implying then there would be no Step3 to LRT. Watch and Listen to what? Response are irrelevant. Take ownership. You f**ded up. Help her, support her in every way possible to move on with her life. This it. No agenda.

Mr Bond's claim about behaving the way you should have in the M amounts to - rewriting history to your own end, giving yourself a second chance. You dont deserve one - let her go, without a fight. Fight implies you have a position. And your position is NOT important. what YOU think is irrelevant. It is about what she wants.

[Pyrite]

oh and BTW - I have no commitment to what I am saying, in regards to a lot of things, I am simply arguing for the sake of it. Another thing which was not good in the M. Not like MrBond will no doubt assume. In a lot of Rs, friends, colleagues - all of us play devil's advocate, to provoke further thinking, discussion, and in scienctific research it is VITAL. One reason climate skeptics are way off base. We have given ourselves a much harsher, thorough and valid grilling than they ever have.

However, I do believe that my wanting to save the M is ultimately self serving. However this is achieved, SHE believes it is already over. I would like to know how you have convinced yourselves that it is not. I could argue "for the kids", but again, I believe it would be best. Not HER.

[Cadet]

It is about what she wants.

NO it is not about SHE at all.

It is about YOU

We dont know her at all and SHE is not here, YOU are here.
So YOU are the one that we are trying to help.

The FOCUS must not be on her, she is on her own journey separate from YOU.

You can not CONTROL her, only you can control yourself!
You do understand that right?

[Pyrite]

Still don't get it do you? Myself and others have already been through this with you. DB is not manipulative. It's doing what you should have been doing in the first place. Doing what gets a positive response in your WAS. That's how you were when you first dated and got M'd. You forgot that along the way.

rewriting history to your own end, giving yourself a second chance. SHE has decided its over, respect that, let her find "what you had when you were first dating". Maybe with OM. Maybe with the next one. Hopefully it lasts for her. What makes you think it won't. thats imposing your diagnosis. what makes you right?

So I sense a contradiction here. All of this "conspiring" to solicit a response, whether it be counter intuitive or not VERSUS this talk of YOU dont know or it doesn't matter what YOU want.

[Pyrite]

You can not CONTROL her, only you can control yourself!
You do understand that right?

I do Cadet.

Another way I can think of it is in terms of this "contradiction". How can I let go to the extent of giving her my blessing so to speak, AND at the same time want to resurrect the M. OK, I suspect that this may be exactly what I should be aiming for, but every 2nd post (exaggerated) seems to be about action to take in order to solicit a positive response. This doesn't gel for me.