For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2

[sandi2]

So when we say the WAS follows a "script", what is that supposed to mean to the LBS?

Well first, let me say that when we say it, we don't intend for it to sound like a flippant answer. And that we usually refer to a "verbal" script coming from the WAS.

In the beginning of his stitch, the LBH is in panic mode and when his W throws the usual WW statements at him......it scares him b/c he believe every word that comes out of her mouth. He is not aware this is almost protocol for her. He doesn't realize almost every WW has said practically the same words to her H. We are informing him that all she is saying is common and for him not to react out of fear but to get a grip and focus on what he needs to do.......instead of being slain by her words.

It usually surprises newcomers to read other threads and see another man's W saying almost word for word his own W said. Some men have said, "Wow, it really is like they all read from the same script".

I don't think the intentions are for the LBH to find comfort in hearing it is all script. Nor does it necessarily diminish those words she spoke. Telling him it is script is simply more information, such as the 37 rules, the boundary examples, detaching, etc.

The point here is not whether or not it is heartfelt by the WW. The degree of emotions or her sincerity does not change the fact that she is still saying the same stuff as every other WW has said. A person can be sincere, but be sincerely wrong.

[Cadet]

So when we say the WAS follows a "script", what is that supposed to mean to the LBS?

It is suppose to mean

"TRUST THE PROCESS"

because they are following the script.

[sandi2]

When I first arrived on the board, I was a WW who had the resentment, disrespect, rebellion......and defensiveness. I went head to head with some who hit me with the truth that I was completely responsible for my A. Naturally, I wanted to blame my H. "If he had responded to my emotional needs, I would not have been vulnerable to someone else". I think I actually said something very similar to that statement.

It may be in just a few of the threads I read, IDK, but is there some blame shifting taking place in the thinking of newcomer LBH'S? Recently, it seems we are seeing the LBH accepting all the blame for the actions of his WW. It concerns me for several reasons, but I will try to wait to post it later, and give you a chance to express your thoughts.

Many of us have tried to explain that the H may have had a part in the breakdown of the MR, b/c they usually do, and some have a bigger part than others. Some men have no clue as to what they could have done to cause such an affect on her unhappiness to lead to an A. Part of the early information we give the newcomer is to help them look at themselves, dig deep and see the areas that were weak and needs work. I believe the LBS and/or the WAS who comes to the board, needs to go through the deep self-examination.

After the self-examination, we usually see that newcomer hit wit guilt, sadness, anger at themselves, etc. Some of them become very empathic toward their WAS. They want to write letters of apology or do something to show her his sorrow and regret. Even if we tell him it won't fix things, he has such a need to make it right with her. He wants her to know that he finally sees what she put up with all that time.

Since this thread is about WW's, I want to keep the central thought in that direction. It is good for a man to see where he failed, in order to make corrections and improvements. It is good for him to empathize with his W. It is good that he can own his part of the breakdown in the M. I personally believe it may even be necessary in some cases, to prevent self-righteousness. We all make mistakes in M, but some have serious, devasting results.

No matter the role, I hope everyone here agrees that each adult is responsible for the actions they choose from a free will. A woman puts her wayward heart into action, and willingly goes against her H and/or what is "right" and she is completely responsible for those actions.

I also hope newcomer H's will be able to see that he shares part of the breakdown. Maybe he is responsible for how she felt at times in the M, but it's still up to her as to how she deals with her feelings. It was her choice to cling to the hurt or anger and let it grow into a deep resentment. Maybe he didn't even know how she felt. Maybe she never explained in a way that got his attention. Her emotional needs were not completely met.......his needs were not completely met, and they just tried to make the best of things......or so he thought.

Then one day maybe some guy at work winks at her and it makes her feel good, so she responds in some flirty way. It's just all in fun, right? But over time, one little thing leads to another, b/c her ego is being fed and it feels good. She tells herself it means nothing and she has done nothing wrong. The guy gives her compliments, or seems very interested in what she says or the work she does.......whatever, he pays special attention to her, making her feel sexy, or beautiful, or important. The whole experience is lifting her self-confidence as a woman. She begins looking forward to seeing him on the job b/c she feels excited and alive. Let me stop and ask you, is her H responsible thus far?

As her feelings grow into an emotional affair, is the H responsible? As the contacts and time spent with her coworker expands and the EA eventually turns physical, is the H responsible?

Instead of me continuing to just give my comments, I welcome anyone who would like to join in and give thoughts along this subject, b/c do we have a few newcomers who need some guidance here.

[Sotto]

Hi Sandi - very interesting. I've responded to at least one poster with a similar query about responsibility.

One of the things I have struggled with in our sitch is that my H didn't 'fall' into an A in the way you describe. He decided to start 'dating' whilst working away. He then went out for drinks with two women who had previously been attracted to him. And then had an A with another close colleague/friend who already had a partner. I've struggled with the deliberateness of all this.

I have really had to reflect on my lack of awareness of his unhappiness and our inability to communicate about it. He has acknowledged that he let small problems build into big things and that he sent out 'weak signals' about his own unhappiness. He also said that he put his own needs last and this became unsustainable. Months after his A began, he was still telling me out M was 'perfect' even though I had found evidence of an EA.

I'm not downplaying my role in things. I can see that I missed signals about his unhappiness and that our love life had become routine rather than exciting. I put a lot of things down to work stress, because he wasn't saying anything about 'us.' That whole aspect I find really difficult and next time around, I would make sure that deeper communication doesn't get lost through general business and 'life,'

Just my thoughts anyway - and obviously this is a WAH not a WAW!

[Burger]

Thank-you Sandi,

This couldn't have come at a better time for me. *hugs*

I'm currently going through this self-examination on the advice of my DB coach, and it does get quite depressing. I am willing to own up to my part in the breakdown of the M, and take the time and steps necessary to 'fix' me. I even started to feel a little responsible for the A after such a look in the mirror. This reminder is just what I needed today.

[alpha99]

Sandi, your comments are like gold dust so please don't stop. You post some of the most insightful comments on the whole board. Your last few paragraphs saying that although LBH may have had some part in the R breakdown but ultimately it is the WW who is responsible for her actions certainly ring true.

I have noticed on my thread people saying it is all script. I get what they mean, it's par for the course. You talk about sincerity. Of course a WW can be sincere in what she is saying. One of the rules is not to believe what she is saying, doing etc.

May I ask, at what point should one believe what they are being told? I ask because isn't there the chance that although it has been said many times before by many WWs, a particular WW may be right, sincere, and determined in her speech and subsequent actions.

Are there any points when the script becomes reality in your experience here, and how would one know when that moment has occurred?

Do you know at what point this 'script' will be discarded and 'normal thought' might be resumed. I'm sure there is not an average time, so does it need to be a crisis moment or some other point?

Your description of how a EA with co-worker becomes a PA described my WW's situation to a 'T'. If everything is all part of a process, as has been mentioned in the post between yours, what is the next step in the process once it has been established that the WW is following a script?

I hope I haven't asked too many questions. I've tried to keep things general so that any answers help as many LBH's such as me.

On a personal note (more in my threads) WW has rented a new place, has the kids, wants to sell our house, and ultimately at some point wants to D. She mentoins fresh start, clean break, ILYBINILWY, marriage was a mistake, not happy in years, and is adamant she is done with our R. All seems to follow 'the script'.

I know each situation is different but given the overall similarity of what a WW says is there an flip side script that LBH may follow in turning things around?

EDIT: to answer myself, I guess DB'ing is a general answer here. However incredibly good and useful that is in general, it is also 'made to fit' each sitch. One thing I struggle with is exactly what, where, and when to apply elements of DB/DR.

[NH115]

Sandi, we've talked many times about this, but I'm still having trouble getting my head around it. I'm posting here instead of my thread so it'll benefit more people.

What are your thoughts on a WW who is no longer in an A? My W cut off her A three months ago; she'll be the first to admit that OM is still in her head too much, but I'm confident she's pulling her weight on NC.

But she's still wayward; she can be verbally disrespectful, openly worrying about her dating prospects, asking why men don't want her (when I'm sitting right there). A lot of the time she can discuss rationally, and we can talk openly about what led us here to our current situation. I was treated to a 36-hour spew session last week, where absolutely everything that was wrong was all my fault. When she finally came down I said that we needed to S. I can't make that happen quite yet but it's still on the table.

That triggered an immediate turnaround in her behavior. The spew stopped. This week she has (IMHO) made a more concerted effort to live "as if". OM is in town and I haven't heard a peep out of her about him, which I know is an attempt on her part to get him back in the "friend zone" and get him back to the place he was before, when he was just another regular guest.
I roll my eyes at the friend zone thing but I won't micromanage how she handles things, as long as she sticks to boundaries.

She's asked several times in the last few days how I feel about her and us. I've said that I hope we can work things out, but I'm no longer as convinced as I was that it's possible, which is true. What I've tried to convey to her is that I only want to be married to someone who wants to be my W 100%. 100% committed, 100% faithful, 100% intimate.

On balance I'd say she's trying, but there's still a lot to work through. There hasn't been any sex for a while, but I've stopped trying to initiate or even mention it. I'm prepared to turn her down if and when she attempts to initiate. That'll be a 180 for sure!

I guess I'm not sure how to modulate behavior towards her now that I feel like she's putting in some effort. I don't want to let her back too easy, but I'm not sure that full on detach, Stockdale, GAL, moving on mode is really appropriate here anymore.

[sandi2]

I'm so glad you brought up this type of stitch, Toots. I could see how it would be difficult for the LBS, especially when they thought they were doing a pretty good job in their role as a mate.

I have seen (outward observations, obviously) what I considered to be wonderful people, who seemed truly devoted to their H/W in every way, yet they had cheating spouses. Of course, I could not see behind doors, so nobody really knows except the couple themselves.

In reading your post, I remembered one of the first truths that was extremely hard for me to accept, as the WW. That being, my H was not responsible for my happiness. It would take too long to explain, and it makes me look ignorant......and maybe I was, but I think I believed we were responsible for making the S happy. So, that thinking fueled my resentment. I don't mean that I didn't have enough sense to help myself do something about it, but I had always heard that a couple was suppose to make each other happy. Apparently, I took it way out of context.

Not to use this as a cop-out, but back in my growing up years (you know....Leave it to Beaver days) girls were actually taught they were suppose make their H happy and vise versa. Then, of course, the first disagreement my H & I had, I wasn't equipped with the proper skills to deal with it very well (considering I was eighteen).

We see all the time how actions of one spouse can make the other spouse very unhappy. Are we responsible for making them unhappy?

I don't really believe it is quite as cut and dried as some make it sound, so could be interesting to hear others comment.

In keeping with the subject of who is responsible for what, in the MR, what do you all believe? If we can affect the feelings of our S, are we responsible? If not, why? If so, why, and where do you draw the line?

[Tarheel]

Wow, great question.

Like Toots, I don't want to downplay my role in our failed M. I missed (or didn't take seriously) signs W wasn't happy over the years. But despite her unhappiness in the M, she always said our family was the most important thing in the world to her (she came from a broken home). We had so much fun as a family and we we're both pretty excited (I thought) about planning our 15 yr anniversary vacation (she had pages of notes, costs, flights, etc) when she BD'd me. So there was plenty of happiness as a family, but apparently not as much as a couple.

Anyway, I think in my sitch, my W did look to me for her happiness (or unhappiness). To be honest, I looked to her for mine as well. It's not til now, that it's really hit home that we are responsible for our own happiness/feelings. We got married very young and didn't have the proper skills either. However, I do think we are responsible for SUPPORT (emotional, verbal, etc), which in turn contributes heavily to our partner's happiness/unhappiness. At this point I can only envision what my future R(s) would look like, but I see myself being so much more supportive- listening, showing empathy, celebrating achievements...as opposed to 'my day was worse than your day' type comparisons. I know I lacked that skill and as I look back, I think that was the biggest aspect of our M that was missing. If support had been there (from both of us), I think it would have led to more of an emotional connection (=increased happiness).

[Heart14]

Sandi, this is such a great thread. I agree, there is a gray area in terms of responsibility for unhappiness. Ultimately, we are each responsible for our own happiness, but in a MR we each have needs/wants that our S should at least try to fulfill. My H had an affair. I am not responsible for his decision to enter into the A. I am responsible for neglecting his needs in the M prior to that. I am not fully responsible for the breakdown of the M though. We both own a portion.

It seems like most breakdowns start from having too many expectations of the other person, thinking all of our needs should be fulfilled within the MR, and not appreciating the efforts the S does put forth. I know in my case, prior to the A, we were both angry about what the other person wasn't doing. But neither one of us was clear about what we expected or needed. Now we are clear. We also tell each other what we do appreciate and are generally much kinder to one another.