Trying to Follow DB & DR

[Miman2]

I was reading through Thorton's thread and it was mentioned that IF contact is ever made that it should be kinda light with no talk of the R or the future.

Since the IC has been hinting that I should reach out to her I mentioned that I would probably follow that plan. Just ask her out to lunch and just have lunch, talk about any thing else other than our R or the future.

He mentioned that he thought I should also talk about not only what changes/growth I've been making but also what I have found that I want out of a relationship.

I don't know what he thinks the impact would be other than it would be a (right/wrong/unknown) step towards opening lines of communication. He sees that my main issue I've been trying to deal with is the total lack of communication. I think he thinks that with or without her, there should be communication involved to either help with reconciliation or help with moving on.

I brought up the "speak with your actions" approach. Specifically my whole issue of my 180's appearing more like self-preservation rather than a true life change. His response was something along the lines of, "it's like the spouse of an alcoholic who all of a sudden has stopped drinking. they might question did they really stop or is it just temporary? only time will tell..."

I think he's giving more credit to the W's willingness to wait and see if the 180's are real or not.

[MrBond]

Are you still into swinging? Did you want to continue that lifestyle with her if she comes back?

[Miman2]

No and no. Several of my friends in the lifestyle have tried to get me to come out to events since the BD so I could GAL by getting out of the house but I don't think it's a great idea to do so.

Shortly before the BD we talked about getting out once we had moved to Florida. I think her idea was stop the swinging but try to continue the poly relationship.

I'd like to leave it all behind, I could try to give the poly thing another shot maybe. My IC keeps trying to make it work, I dunno if he's trying to normalize it or he just sees them as another support for me. Anyway at this point though I think the relationship between me and everyone other than the W has been poisoned beyond repair. They all went on vacation together during our 2nd week of separation.

Somehow I don't think she'll budge on the poly thing though. That was something she kept repeating towards the end. That it was what she wanted to do and if I didn't want that then maybe we wanted different things out of life and shouldn't be together anymore.

We had an argument about her love for the OM/OW the week before the BD. I told her we could tell her family about it and she said she couldn't do that I told her that was because it wasn't real. We went to our "separate corners" and she later came around saying sorry and that I was right, it wasn't real. When we were supposed to meet up with them a week later though she had a spare wallet, a hard drive backup of her computer and our passports packed. Makes me think her plan was to leave me that weekend either way.

Before the BD I had said on occasion that I wished we could go back to our pure/innocent times before we started in the lifestyle. I keep thinking maybe this is our chance to have that? The old marriage is gone and this is making way for a new one, one where we can start fresh and build a new innocent relationship together. I don't know if that makes any sense, how do people who have come through this feel about their M/R. Does it feel different? Does it feel new?

[Miman2]

So I just tried calling her so we can talk about bills. It went straight to voice mail but I didn't leave a message.

I'm just taking a wild guess here but I think she shuts off her phone every weekend so she can spend time with the OM/OW.

I feel upset about it but not as upset as I have been feeling the past couple of weeks.

[MrBond]

"I'd like to leave it all behind, I could try to give the poly thing another shot maybe."

Really? Then you'll find yourself in the same problem again.

"Before the BD I had said on occasion that I wished we could go back to our pure/innocent times before we started in the lifestyle. "

That's the key to what you really want. That lifestyle just ruined your M.

You're going to have to decide on what you want and stick with it.

[Fogg]

Hey Miman2. Just read up on your sitch. We have a few things in common, both in Michigan, similar time together with W, similar advice from IC and thoughts on LTR. W and I were each others firsts also. In my case I'm still living with my W but I have the same thoughts on certain techniques. Questioning if what I'm doing is really pushing W away or allowing her to stay away instead of drawing her back. IC also tells me I can have conversation with W about anything as long as its honest communication. Confuses me still as to what I should be doing for the best possible outcome.

As for the swinging. You stated before you wanted to go back to the innocent lifestyle, to me that appears you know what you really want. I wouldn't just get back into it for the sole purpose of getting W back. As MrBond said, you will just find yourself in the same problem again later down the road.

I know how hard it can be to view life without the one you really want, but there's no telling what the future holds. It could be that this is your chance to move to the lifestyle you need to be happy. Who's to say W may change her mind and join you, or you could meet someone else in the future that wants what you want.

[Miman2]

"I'd like to leave it all behind, I could try to give the poly thing another shot maybe."

Really? Then you'll find yourself in the same problem again.

"Before the BD I had said on occasion that I wished we could go back to our pure/innocent times before we started in the lifestyle. "

That's the key to what you really want. That lifestyle just ruined your M.

Therein lies my dilemma. If you leave out the fact that she's with OM/OW everything about the situation lines up with everything MWD has written about WAW syndrome.

To quote DR pg. 39, " And with that, they plan their escape. The interesting thing about this plan is that it usually hinges on a particular event that may take years to materialize."

Like I mentioned before she had certain item packed that she had no reason to have packed, unless she already had that plan in place. She just needed the event which kicked her plan into action. I think the fact that it seemed like I was trying to call the whole poly thing off was her kick.

In the weeks leading up to the BD she kept reiterating that the poly thing was something she wanted to do. Now she had someone else to support her emotionally (and physically) when she put "the plan" into action.

It was really only after she left and continued to see the OM/OW did it go from being something condoned into an A.

So my dilemma is this, how do I best deal with the situation?

By MWD writings I treat her as a WAW. The W's words when she left follow the WAW script to a T. The issues around the house where she had been complaining and then stopped, the ILYBINILWY, the "I think we want different things from life".

By Sandi's description she's a WW. Because she's shoulders deep in an EA/PA.

Either way we're separated so I'm trying my hardest to apply the LRT.

The W seemed convinced that she wanted a poly relationship and I could give it another chance, if I didn't feel like my W was emotionally distant from me during it. I don't feel it was ruined our M, I did that by not being the husband my W needed. Because of that she became a WAW and I feel like she was emotionally distant because she had put together "the plan".

I feel that by treating the situation as a WAW, I'm directly dealing with the issues that my W has mentioned as the reason for wanting our S/D. Those issues were ALL my fault and my doing (or not doing as the case may be).

By treating the situation as a WW, I feel I'm throwing a majority of the fault back on my W. Sandi's suggestion to draw a line in the sand and stand my ground about the EA/PA doesn't make sense when I sit down and try to logically think about the major complaints that lead my W to this point.

So I LRT, GAL, and try to figure out every 180 I can do so I can be the H my W (or the next one) deserves.

In going back and reading other people's success stories I've seen 5LL mentioned. I've realized that mine and my W's LL were DRASTICALLY different and it was something that I complained a lot about during our R. Has any read both the regular and men's version of 5LL? Is one generally better than the other?

[MrBond]

"Therein lies my dilemma. If you leave out the fact that she's with OM/OW everything about the situation lines up with everything MWD has written about WAW syndrome."

First off, it's not a "syndrome" per se. Second, you contributed to her leaving by getting into the swinging lifestyle.

"It was really only after she left and continued to see the OM/OW did it go from being something condoned into an A. "

That's just a matter of perspective. You were in an A the minute you started introducing other people into your life. In fact, you are now seen as a hypocrite because you were fine before having sex with someone other than your W, but now you see what she's doing as an A.

Bottom line is that you willingly introduced other people into an intimacy that should have been reserved for just you and your W. But when you let the others in, your W has no need for you because she can now have that intimacy and have her emotional needs met by other people.

Aside from your swinging, what other issues did you have in your M? You can't change what she's doing, but you can change what you do and what things you did to contribute to your marriage downfall.

[Miman2]

The semantics of "syndrome" aside (MWD refers to it as such on pg. 39 in DR). I have to disagree with you.

"It was really only after she left and continued to see the OM/OW did it go from being something condoned into an A. "

That's just a matter of perspective.

Is it really a matter of perspective?
Let me try to put it in terms everyone can understand.

Some people trust that their spouse can interact with members of the opposite sex without intercourse being involved.
If intercourse is envolved, then usually that is a betrayal of that trust.
People often give it a label such as an affair, or cheating or whatever.

In the swinging lifestyle there is a code of ethics that most people follow, think of it as "honor amongst thieves" if you will.
One basic assumption is that you and your partner are participating in this because you trust them enough to know that at the end of the night they're coming back home to you.
When they don't and they betray that trust... well I guess you can connect the dots from there.
The only hypocrite now is the one who betrayed the trust.

I don't know about you but I see a theme here. The question is how far do you trust your spouse.

Bottom line is that you willingly introduced other people into an intimacy that should have been reserved for just you and your W. But when you let the others in, your W has no need for you because she can now have that intimacy and have her emotional needs met by other people.

Nope. See above. (Hint the secret word is: TRUST)

The lifestyle did do a lot for our marriage.
Before we got active in it my W could not regularly achieve orgasm, afterwards...
EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Mostly multiple times at that too.
It brought us closer for a long while. We were going on vacations and making new friends. We laughed and had our good times and our bad. But it worked for us.
I'm not making excuses for what we did or even glorify what we did.
Just trying to give a bit of insight. They say the lifestyle is not for people who are trying to fix their marriage, and that's not what it was for us.

Aside from your swinging, what other issues did you have in your M? You can't change what she's doing, but you can change what you do and what things you did to contribute to your marriage downfall.

Now I can get to the real bottom line. Why was that trust betrayed? My conclusion is that she felt that she had too much responsibility in the M.

We dated for a year before I moved in with her and her parents, my parents kicked me out long story. So while I lived in "not-my-house" I did what I could but most of the chores were handled by the house owners. I helped cook mostly.

When we moved and got our own place, I had a full course load and she was taking just one or two classes. So she took care of the household. Along the way she would say things like "don't worry about it, I enjoy taking care of you". This time our kitchen was smaller and she felt I was in the way, so I got pushed out of there.

Now in our new bigger apartment she still did ALL of the chores, taking care of the pets, cleaning, cooking, laundry. My single sole chore was to load and unload the dish washer, and I didn't even do that religiously.

We were students when we got married and moved across country, we're just recently done with school. We have a lot of debt in our name that we've accrued along the way.

She had been out of school for a bit longer than I have and was making decent money. But instead of her being able to enjoy her hard earned money most of it vanished into debt repayment.

She would have loved to go and buy a new wardrobe every season but I tried to be the responsible one and remind her that we shouldn't be spending that much money. Because I thought we had other goals we were working towards, like a house eventually.

I was extremely restrictive when it came to trying to go on vacations or buying things she felt she needed (clothes), mostly because I felt it took a large percentage of our income.

She however would have no problem letting me drop $5 here or there on something that I wanted.

In terms of the 5LL Our physical touch has been off kilter since we started dating. I love tons of it but too much for her starts to annoy her.

Because of the other people involved and spending almost every weekend with them we lost all quality time together.

If you're familiar with 5LL then that's 4 items right there that we've been ignoring acts of service, gifts, quality time, and our physical touch. The only thing we had left was the words of affirmation and those were being shared with other people.

What she saw was not a husband but a roommate. We were living together but I was not communicating my love to her in a way she could understand and I didn't see the way she was trying to communicate her love back.

So that leaves me with what exactly do I do with my 180s?

So far I would say doing more around the house would definitely be on the list, but because we're separated now I definitely have to take care of the house on my own. So its hard to differentiate the 180 from self preservation.

Assuming she comes back I would also say we could keep our money separate, pay for our common bills, put a little aside, and whatever she has left she can use on herself.

I've been selfish in the R. We come home, she cooks, I play video games, we eat, we play video games, we go to bed late, we get up late, go to work, repeat. The R with the OC has allowed her/us to get out of that cycle a bit by allowing us to ignore the duties around the house during the weekend.

[Miman2]

Sorry I was in venting mode yesterday...

I can see from my W's perspective she probably thinks I'm being a hypocrite now. I was just trying to think logically through everything that happened.

It was a rough weekend. Plans to get together with a friend fell through. Wound up cleaning up the apartment all Saturday. Sunday church and then back home to try and reread DR.