Onwards and upwards.

[Barry]

I'd like to talk about my feelings about my W. Not the feelings as to why I want to R with her (I could list these but it's futile for me to think of her this way any more, it only upsets me). I don't actually believe that R is possible any more.
I realise that's a bit of an un-DB like thing to say here but it's the truth.
Our M is over, even if not legally. That's just a matter of time now.

I know I've given up on her (I have to for my sanity) and that's not really what this forum is about but I want to keep posting because it helps, even if I get no feedback. I'm not sure now if people have read my 20 year old confession now and think that maybe I deserve all I get for doing that? I hope that's not the case.

One of the reasons why I've been able to detach from W so well over the last couple of weeks is that I've taken a long hard look at our M and tried to be objective on the things that I DON'T like about her. My love for her has always made these things tolerable or blinkered me into seeing her in a positive light.
W has detached from me just fine in only seeing the negatives in me and our M so I thought I'd give it a try. I was quite surprised as to what I came up with.

I'm aware that this post will come across to some that I'm playing the victim, that's not the case, I'm merely giving my thoughts on my W's part in this sitch.
I've tortured myself enough on what my role has been.

There are some things I'll list first then I'll follow it up with the thing that's the real dealbreaker for me...

• Rarely cooked meals for her family (she's a cook by trade).
• Rarely cleaned our home and was actually very untidy.
• Not a sexual person at all.
• Found it difficult to show affection towards me (simple handholding etc).
• Selfish
• NEVER apologised for anything.
• Condescending and critical.
• Controlling.
• No interest in "dating" me.

And the dealbreaker for me is..

• Emotionally closed off to me.

I'm making W sound like a real b1tch here. Obviously she wasn't like this all the time (and certainly not for all of our M) or we would never have stayed together for 23 years. She's changed a lot, we both have.

I've been thinking a lot about some of your sitches, particularly those whose WAS's have been or are still in an EA. For those that have been avidly keeping up with my sitch (thank you), you'll know already that there is no known OM on the scene. What there is, and what there has been for many years is W's best friend (female). W has been and still is in an EA with this best friend.

An EA is one person having their emotional needs met by someone other than their spouse. There doesn't necassarily have to be any sexual undertone to it.
I don't blame this friend for the complete break-up of our M, we did this all ourselves. She did play a part in being a constant (and I mean daily) addition in our M but it was my W's choice to let herself become so enmeshed with this friend that she pushed me away in the process. I suppose because W's emotional essence became unattainable to me, I wanted it more and more.

THAT'S what pushed HER away. This is what W meant when she said to me about not loving someone too much. She felt smothered because I wanted to be her best friend and the one she would turn to. Much of the root cause of my depression for the last 18 months has been centered around this ideal.

They have always been close, too close in my book. It's good to have friends but not at the expense of your M. If there were ever a need for a shoulder to cry on, someone to tell a secret to, or even for someone to just shoot the sh1t with, W would always turn to her friend to have her emotional needs met. It really upset me that this was the case, and I was jealous. I felt abandoned and lonely.
I was jealous of the bond they shared and what she represented in our M.
She was always the third wheel in our R.

I was talking to a colleague at work today (female), who has really helped me cope with my depression since BD. She was seriously ill with depression a couple of years ago too, but she made it through it so she knows how important it is to talk to someone who understands the emotions. She is happily married and I know her H too. Anyway, as I talked with her today about the above, I said to her "I'm sure you have girlfriends that you would tell things to that you wouldn't tell your H". She looked at me and said "No, I don't actually. I DO have lots of girlfriends but my H is my best friend. I'd talk to him about everything".

That got me thinking that to me, that's what M's should be like. Especially long ones like ours. My W CHOSE to turn to her friend over me. It wasn't like I didn't want to be there for her, in fact, that was what I wanted most in my M.

I've also known this best friend for most of my life and I've seen many changes in her that my W has and is trying to replicate. Best friend has been divorced, and actually married her AP. She has had the tattoos, the "boob job", the new car, the new job and started wanting to party like its 1999. All of these things my W is now doing herself.

The best friend also has a brother (single) who is actually a great guy. I've been away on fishing weekends with him and get on well with him (not a friend as such though). He's not what I'd call good looking but very funny and easy going.
Best friend and he are very close.

If I had to bet on what's going to happen, I can see my W dating the brother at some point...set up by the friend of course. It's none of my concern really, W is lost to me now and if it were to happen that way, I would at least know that she was dating someone decent.

When my W offered me her pearl of wisdom in not loving someone too much, I knew what she meant. I didn't tell her this, and maybe I should have but I wanted to tell her that should she find someone else, she needs to love them more - and show it. I wanted to tell her that she should remember that if she's in a R with someone, they've given her a large piece of their heart. They haven't given it to her and her best friend. They don't come as a pair.

Sadly, I know that W and friend will never change the bond they have and I fear for W in that she will find herself having a similar problem in the future. She'll realise one day that it's not just me that doesn't like playing second fiddle to a friend, that's the same for the majority of people unless they are just in it for casual sex. My W isn't (or I should say hasn't been) someone who would do that so I worry for her next long term relationship.

I'm actually decided. As much as I do love her still, I couldn't ever R with her as long as I was a safety net for when her friend isn't around.

Barry.

[rd500]

Barry. At the end of the day what you decide is all that's important. O e rule
Of thumb on this board is never act in haste. Don't make a decision based on how you feel now. Wait for a few weeks at least to make sure your feelings don't change.

Take care , Rd

[Barry]

Thanks for that RD, good to hear from you.
Whenever I see you're signature by the way, I think how similar our family's are in numbers, kids ages, length of R and M, difference in age between H&W. Obviously you've got 10 years on me but still, very similar.

As it stands, I'm done. To turn this around now, I think it would take too much effort from W. That list up there ^^ ^^, is a partial list of what I don't want my M to be like for ME to be happy.

Those are things that W will not change. She doesn't believe she needs to change anything about herself, apart from getting away from me.
She's actually quite comfortable with who she is and what she wants now.
I can tell you for sure that her friends are all helping enable this transition from a married yummy mummy, to a single MILF.

I've become the symbol of her old life now, and everything that was wrong with it. I'm not saying she won't at some point realise that that may not be the case, just that I'd think I'd stepped into a parallel universe if she changed any of them. It makes me angry to even consider she might, but with someone else.

As I say, these things have bugged me for a long time and they're part of the reason she feels I'm controlling, of why I've been unhappy and why I find myself here. It's my reactions to these actions that caused W to decide to end things and I appreciate that I could of reacted differently. The cooking, cleaning, domestic chores things I could cope with to some extent, it's really the lack of desire for closeness with me (which has always been there but has been unbearable in the last 18 months) that tell me I shouldnt WANT to be with someone who doesn't return my affections.

I'm sure there are lots of women out there who are in the same position as me here, and they could write that list about there H's. I used to love loving my W, it didn't used to feel like hard work to have that love returned either. For a long time I've felt lonely in my M because I didn't feel loved. That's not how life is meant to be..we only get one chance, life isn't a dress rehearsal.

I need to accept that I had a good life with W but that for whatever underlying reason (from her perspective), she no longer feels like I'm the one. I wish that weren't true and that I could turn everything around. I just can't. She's not interested in how a M should be, only in how W wants to be.

If she ever decided she'd made a mistake in doing this, and she hadn't missed the boat and I was with someone, I would consider taking her back but it would take such a change in W that it becomes incomprehendable that this will ever happen. So for now, I move on...

Onwards and upwards

[Mozza]

Hey Barry - Good on your for continuing to open up and progress in your thoughts and emotions.

It's late so I'll be short. I'm concerned that I see some of the Old Barry popping up. My main concern is that you're now trying to reject her to make up for her rejection of you. You're hurt so you find reasons to say that you don't want her after all. I myself came quite close to this a week ago when thinking out loud about whether my W is a serial cheater that can't be trusted. I know that this feeling keeps coming up in me: "She was worse than me and I'm the one who should be rejecting her." And you're going further by almost giving up on your sitch (the typical newcomer after a few months, I seem to observe with time).

Uncertainty is very difficult to bear for the human mind. Learning to live with uncertainty is apparently a key sign of intelligence. In our case, this uncertainty about our M is some of the hardest to accept and manage. We want an out all of the time: we want her to turn around right now, we temp check to see if she wants us after all, we are pessimistic and claim it's done, we decide that WE don't want to R, etc. Anything to take us out of this uncertainty, much like the person who says: "Just tell me today that I have cancer, I can't wait for the test results another day", even though it doesn't make sense.

So I encourage you to think whether you can step back a little and accept that you don't know the future. That leaving your options open holds more promises for you. You don't know if your W will change her mind about you (did you know she was going to leave you?). You don't know what she'll reflect upon in the coming year about her personal changes. You don't know where your mind will wander during the same period. You don't know. Try to ban the "always" and "never" from your thoughts, recognizing the principle of impermanence, the same one that has brought this unexpected S in our lives.

[rd500]

Hi Barry. With regards to what your W will change or not You honestly don't know. My W works at a certain place and loves it. It was a major factor in how our M collapsed I would have bet my life that W would never leave but over the last few weeks she has been talking to kids about leaving. I was stunned and then W starts telling me she no longer likes the place. I know this seems small to you Barry but please believe it's huge.

Don't even try to think what' your W will or will not do. Just worry about Barry
Take care. Rd

[Barry]

Hi Mozza. Thanks for the encouragement regarding opening up. There’s a few things I’d like to pick up on in your post...just to clarify my thoughts.

My main concern is that you're now trying to reject her to make up for her rejection of you.

It's really "because of", not "to make up for". I don't think I'm feeling this way out of any sense of revenge or retaliation. I see it as a means to an end in my need to detach and as I say, it's worked wonders for W in seeing me in a negative light.

You're hurt so you find reasons to say that you don't want her after all.

I DO want her though...more than anything else, but I can't have her (at least now, maybe never). We will be divorced soon. I can go round and round in circles in my mind thinking of the woman I love (which I do very much) and who loved me, but that woman is not in my W's mind, body & soul at the moment. Maybe she'll come back, maybe not. To be honest, no matter how I think of her, she is still in my thoughts all the time in some way – how could she not be.

And you're going further by almost giving up on your sitch.

I can't stres enough that giving up is not my preference at all. I don't want to give up on my M or on her, but I simply can't continue to feel like a dog that's constantly kicked by its owner and yet keeps coming back happily for more.
I've told my W that I'll always leave a path to R open to her, but that I WILL move on with my life without her and won't sit around moping about the fact that she no longer loves me.
W is the only woman I want in my life, despite my list of negative points about her. As I mentioned, there is a positive list too (maybe I should post that to add some balance to my posts?) but that feels like a list of what I'm losing and only causes me pain. I don't see any value in having it in the forefront of my mind right now. I try to keep the loving thoughts to a minimum at the moment.

So I encourage you to think whether you can step back a little and accept that you don't know the future. That leaving your options open holds more promises for you.

Of course you’re right in that no one can know the future for certain. What I do know for certain is that once I get to the stage financially that I'm able to take W's offer, I'll then have to file for the protection reasons I've mentioned before. I don't have an option here, and D does seem to be the final nail in the coffin for us. No, I don't know for sure that we will definatly D - W may stop all this at any point, but me looking at my sitch through rose tinted glasses is not the way forward. It's ok for all of us to have a glimmer of hope, so long as we don't trick ourselves into being unrealistic.

You don't know if your W will change her mind about you (did you know she was going to leave you?).

Not so much know she would, but I knew she was capable of it. Because we'd had a similar (although smaller scale in terms of separated time) BD last year, I tried to do all I could to be a better person so she would love me again. I have to admit that she tried to, and therein lay her problem. She didn't think it "normal" that you should have to try and love someone. To her it was there or it wasn't. I tried to say to W that long marriages can be hard work, but you DO have to put the work into the emotional side. Anyway, we got to the point where she said she did love me and wished it hadn't have happened (no apology offered - but I didn't really expect one) but as things started to go sour again, I knew this time that she was quite capable of another BD.

You don't know what she'll reflect upon in the coming year about her personal changes. You don't know where your mind will wander during the same period. You don't know. Try to ban the "always" and "never" from your thoughts, recognizing the principle of impermanence, the same one that has brought this unexpected S in our lives.

I truly hope you're right with this ^ ^ Mozza. I hope W does reflect on things, and yes, I do still have some hope for our R. I don't think it will happen in time to call off the D that I'll be setting in motion though. Although I dont know that W wouldn't want to R with me after D, I have known her a very long time and it just doesn't seem likely. I do hope I'm wrong about that. I suppose the only never I should remember is that I told W I'd never give up on her completley even though I will move on without her.
I can't have it both ways I guess.

[Barry]

I suppose the only never I should remember is that I told W I'd never give up on her completely even though I will move on without her. I can't have it both ways I guess.

This last part was confusing even for me to read back later? Can't have what both ways?
I think what i meant but communicated badly here, was that in order for me to emotionally move on, I feel like I need to give up on my M, even if not necessarily on my W. Does that make sense?
I accept that the M we had is over, and of course that's heartbreaking but it IS the reality. Does there exist a path to a R together at any point in the future??...maybe, IDK...I hope so.

[Kramer]

I suppose the only never I should remember is that I told W I'd never give up on her completely even though I will move on without her. I can't have it both ways I guess.

This last part was confusing even for me to read back later? Can't have what both ways?
I think what i meant but communicated badly here, was that in order for me to emotionally move on, I feel like I need to give up on my M, even if not necessarily on my W. Does that make sense?
I accept that the M we had is over, and of course that's heartbreaking but it IS the reality. Does there exist a path to a R together at any point in the future??...maybe, IDK...I hope so.

Your sentiments are very similar to mine. In my case, my wife had the affair and also filed for divorce. I cannot fight the process, so I will respond and protect my interests. Of course, this will anger her because she expects that I will take on all the debt and let her keep everything. She will likely accuse me of being mean and vindictive, but in reality I am just protecting my interests in the divorce that she initiated. I love her and will always hold out hope for a reconciliation, but I will also participate in ending our marriage. I suspect that her pride will prevent reconciliation after we are divorced, but I will still hold ou hope, even as I move forward into uncharted and unwanted territory.

[Barry]

Hi Kramer, our sentiments our similar even if not our sitch's.
I've seen it said many times before (and had it said to me) that you should be careful what you wish for.
In some ways, it's more difficult to DB your way out of a sitch where this is no OP.

There is no OM drawing my WAW away from me (see my post above reference best friend and EA though).
If there were, I'd have had a clearer run at this. I think that's the crucial part of my sitch in that there is no OM, there was never any abuse on either part, we didn't even really argue above and beyond what would be considered normal or even healthy in the build-up to this. She just gave up on us.

I don't believe that couples just drift apart over time.
One or both of them know it's happening, but unless BOTH of them are willing and able to recognise it, communicate effectively on the issue, action a plan, monitor the results, and change the plan as necessary to ensure the best results - they actually push each other away. You have a wayward W, I have a walk-away wife, but the end result is the same - we find ourselves in the same place emotionally in either sitch.

We need to heal and to protect ourselves. No-one can do that for us, and we can only control ourselves. Our actions however will have an impact on our W's, our children (in my case), our in-laws, and our chances of possible R in the future.

Your WW has filed against you, and I urge you to protect yourself by whatever means necessary. I will file against my WAW for financial reasons only (I'm getting the better deal out of the two of us, such is her offer). If there a way to not D her, but protect myself legally from the possible her in the future, I'd do it. Sadly that isn't the case in the UK so this is why I've made peace with my decision.

How I justify that to myself is a means to an end in my quest for detachment. I have actually told my W that I WILL move on without her but that I'd always be open to a discussion about R in the future. This is how I feel right now.

As I reflect on Mozza's and RD's posts above, it is true that in a years time, who knows where both of us will be. I'm not looking for anyone else that much is true now. W says she isn't either and to her credit, she shows no signs of looking for any kind of relationship. Anything is possible though in as you say, the uncharted and unwanted territory of our immediate futures without our W's.

I wish you lots of luck in your sitch, and that you find peace in whatever the outcome.

Barry.

[Barry]

I had to see W yesterday as I've run into another complication with the finances. I'm keeping her in the loop as to what's going on with both the re-mortgaging and the divorce filing. I haven't filed yet until I know I can take her offer. I know I'm just stalling really because I will get the finances sorted out one way or another. We discussed a few things, but no R talks. She's asked me to file and get the paperwork moving so that once the finances are sorted, we won't have to wait too long. She gave me some examples she'd thought of to use as Unreasonable Behaviour.

She said that she really wants to get away from our house and start a new life. She wants me back with the boys because she agreed with me that living at my parents is not good for me. She's realises that it's probably going to be around 3 months at best from when I file to when she'll get the money and that was fine with her.
When I went round to our house, she was mopping the floor and I have to say, she'd totally scrubbed the place from top to bottom. I did the same when I moved out in January..she's readying herself to leave.

She'd changed her profile picture on FB to a recent one of her and D16, and both looked very beautiful. I told her it was a lovely photo (we aren't friends on FB), and that she looked good in it. She looked good when I was there too. Not just physically. She looks less stressed, more confidant, and does look happier now. It's horrible to think that she's all of those things because I'm gone but if that's what it takes for her to be happy then so be it. I'm working on my own and it'll be easier once I get home and have my own space back.