PatientMan kindly replied to my post about flirting and dating on MCS' thread. I copy it and respond here because it's less relevant for MCS and TLEE86.
_______________
PatientMan: Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. It is certainly useful for me and all who think about this and there are several on these boards. You have clarity about this topic.
I get the sense that we will never see eye to eye on this, so it is probably better not to reply to each comment until we find some sort of agreement. Let me then respond in a more general way.
I am still married to my WAW and promised to be faithful to her in my wedding vows. I meant it and I abode by it throughout our relationship, even when she offered me to be unfaithful in return for her 2009 indiscretion. So why do I feel free to be unfaithful now? Because my WAW has broken the M contract and moved away from it. This pledge was between us, not between me and a piece of paper and not between me and God because I'm not religious. The day that my WAW was unfaithful, in 2009, I did not feel freed from my commitment to her because she wanted to make the relationship work (we only got married the following year). The difference is that this time my WAW has completely and unambiguously freed herself from our mutual commitment. She left me for an OM and now lives with him. She is only waiting to D because here it takes one year - in other jurisdictions it would have been over in 30 days. She's given me the green light to be with other women on the day she left home, saying that "all options are open but we shouldn't live our lives according to this".
Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does. I don't see strength in being faithful to my WAW, in fact I see weakness. It would not be self-respect for me to wait on a woman who has rejected me so clearly and is living a new life with an OM. In fact, I would be a mockery of a man by pledging to be faithful to her under these circumstances. Holding on to your promises is not an absolute and circumstances change. Not being the first to break a contract is important, but people will walk circles around us if they know that they can commit us for longer than they do. In this case, I'm not one to live an open marriage. Should she want to be back, it would be another change in circumstances. Should I have met someone "better" in the meantime, this is a risk that she's chosen to take at BD.
By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way. Taking action has been a real challenge for me and I've avoided situations where I had a chance to flirt. But this is not about my actions anyway, but my mindset and intentions.
Notice that I only consider this course of action under the extreme circumstances of my sitch. In cases where there's been no cheating or there is still some sort of mutual commitment, or even early into an extreme sitch, I don't think it's appropriate.
Do I want to have fun by sleeping with other women? Yes. Fun is nothing to be ashamed of. I plan on being very clear about my intentions. I wouldn't be the first one to have sex with people without spending the rest of my life with them, in fact this is how a vast majorities of coupling occurs. I also acknowledge my sexual needs without shame and frankly I'm looking forward to the touch of a woman. Reproduction is a carnal desire like hunger and thirst and is experienced by all forms of life.
I hope this clarifies and especially that it helps those who struggle to come up with their own answer for their sitch.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way.
Interesting... I have done a tiny amount of flirting with no possibility of sex, but I feel like my self-respect started improving when I started standing up for my own needs (with STBX and others). Sex had nothing to do with it. Think this is a man-woman thing or something else?
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
If it is ok I thought that I might chip in on the flirting issue. I dance, sometimes blues dancing with some fantastic dance partners in a dance that lasts for max 3 mins. During that time you are connecting with another human, your focus is on partnering with them. And yes it's flirty.
I see this as intent why do we flirt and connect?
My intent is to make the dance enjoyable, have a better connection, it is never a prelude to a peccadillo, to iniate a sexual encounter, a prelude to intimacy of a carnal kind. It is pleasant nice to meet you, enjoyed dancing with you thank you.
So, dating is different, it is the intention of starting the research for a new partner, a testing of others. Because I am ready for it, because I like the other person, because H is behind me, because I am completely free for a new R. If I am choosing some wonderful new partner then I want to treat them as I would like to be treated With kindness, compassion, interest and friendship. As a person with right to be treated with respect even if it is one date without chemistry. I would like an RD, OD, MCS, Edz, Jim kind of man who has values and appreciates mine. I read on RDs thread he would be looking for the equivalent if his M eventually ceased.
Some try dating but they are unready and decide it is not time for them. They are not truly free and it would complicate their stand for their M.
After this experience with H then it will be a long time before I can reach that space if ever. And yes, I have a high sex drive, up to me to manage that myself. Revenge sex or using someone as a release is not me and really I will not want to be with any man for more than 10 minutes who wants to treat me that way. I feel I am like many women, sex gets better the more involved the R.
My 2 c worth!
V
Mza I posted this on MCS thread.
I see your perspective a little, WW has been unfaithful to you and you feel you need connection with another.
However I would pose the following: the superficial connection may give you release but I suspect leave you feeling emptier than when you started. The type of person with whom you might recycle your current experience is the most likely partner in this or worse. It sounds as if a superficial connection is all you want and this is the majority of experience. If so why not buy a sex toy? Why treat yourself and another like blow up dolls? I for one see this route as 'unfun' and definitely hazardous to health and spirit. Even if you are 'upfront' about your intentions, what type of partner would join you on your fun experience?
Connection with a loving woman could leave you feeling guilty if you have the intention to reconnect with W.
I think I would be the first to say Mza go date, have a lovely time, steal a passionate kiss, if Mza came across as calm and ready. My concern for Mza is that the thoughts he expresses if acted on May leave Mza with an empty heart and in a worse place.
I say this from my heart Mza
V
Last edited by Vanilla; 03/18/1502:36 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
PatientMan kindly replied to my post about flirting and dating on MCS' thread. I copy it and respond here because it's less relevant for MCS and TLEE86.
_______________
PatientMan: Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. It is certainly useful for me and all who think about this and there are several on these boards. You have clarity about this topic.
I get the sense that we will never see eye to eye on this, so it is probably better not to reply to each comment until we find some sort of agreement. Let me then respond in a more general way.
I am still married to my WAW and promised to be faithful to her in my wedding vows. I meant it and I abode by it throughout our relationship, even when she offered me to be unfaithful in return for her 2009 indiscretion. So why do I feel free to be unfaithful now? Because my WAW has broken the M contract and moved away from it. This pledge was between us, not between me and a piece of paper and not between me and God because I'm not religious. The day that my WAW was unfaithful, in 2009, I did not feel freed from my commitment to her because she wanted to make the relationship work (we only got married the following year). The difference is that this time my WAW has completely and unambiguously freed herself from our mutual commitment. She left me for an OM and now lives with him. She is only waiting to D because here it takes one year - in other jurisdictions it would have been over in 30 days. She's given me the green light to be with other women on the day she left home, saying that "all options are open but we shouldn't live our lives according to this".
Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does. I don't see strength in being faithful to my WAW, in fact I see weakness. It would not be self-respect for me to wait on a woman who has rejected me so clearly and is living a new life with an OM. In fact, I would be a mockery of a man by pledging to be faithful to her under these circumstances. Holding on to your promises is not an absolute and circumstances change. Not being the first to break a contract is important, but people will walk circles around us if they know that they can commit us for longer than they do. In this case, I'm not one to live an open marriage. Should she want to be back, it would be another change in circumstances. Should I have met someone "better" in the meantime, this is a risk that she's chosen to take at BD.
By the way, I don't know that I'll have to sleep with other women to feel self-respect again. The mere fact that I feel free to do it goes a long way. Taking action has been a real challenge for me and I've avoided situations where I had a chance to flirt. But this is not about my actions anyway, but my mindset and intentions.
Notice that I only consider this course of action under the extreme circumstances of my sitch. In cases where there's been no cheating or there is still some sort of mutual commitment, or even early into an extreme sitch, I don't think it's appropriate.
Do I want to have fun by sleeping with other women? Yes. Fun is nothing to be ashamed of. I plan on being very clear about my intentions. I wouldn't be the first one to have sex with people without spending the rest of my life with them, in fact this is how a vast majorities of coupling occurs. I also acknowledge my sexual needs without shame and frankly I'm looking forward to the touch of a woman. Reproduction is a carnal desire like hunger and thirst and is experienced by all forms of life.
I hope this clarifies and especially that it helps those who struggle to come up with their own answer for their sitch.
I understand that you think a year is too long to wait without moving forward in some form of a relationship with a woman. I disagree with it (most people need far longer than a year to be ready for another relationship), but I do understand it.
To your vows, you likely said something along the lines of "in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, in good times and bad".
Yes?
I am also presuming that when you uttered those words, or ones like them, there was no qualifying statement or clause attached to them. No, "Unless you break them first" or "until you cheat on me twice" or "until we feel differently"...correct?
You spoke your vows to your spouse, in the presence of the people in attendance, and - most importantly - to yourself. You said you would do x, y, z. Period.
So while you may feel justified, and while most people will understand, it still doesn't change the fact that you are consciously choosing to betray your own word because it suits you and is generally acceptable.
Again, if that is the kind of man you are and want to be, it is absolutely a free country and you are certainly entitled to live it within the legally and socially permissible framework, but I am talking about something better. I will never promise it is the easy way, but I can speak to its virtue.
For example, let's say down the road you are ready to marry someone new. She will certainly know you are a good man (otherwise she wouldn't be marrying you, right?), and she will most certainly understand why you chose to move on from your commitment to your current wife while still in the bounds of your marriage, believing you are a respectable man whose word can be relied upon.
But, in the back of her mind may be the thought, "He says he will do this, but he has proven that in the past he is willing to go back on what he says when it suits him. I wonder what that means for me?"
Alternatively, you have the opportunity to offer your future bride an indescribable gift. The gift that no matter what is going on, no matter what other people think, no matter what is acceptable or not, she will KNOW that YOU ARE A MAN OF YOUR WORD. She will be able to see that from how you conducted yourself in your previous marriage that was unsuccessful. You were willing to delay temporary and fleeting happiness for something worth much more! And what a better foundation for a marriage!
If you do not see a valuable difference between those two futures, then I am of little service to you.
To weakness?
First, it is only weak if you think it is weak. Personally I believe it to be far weaker to succumb to temptation and impatience, unable to postpone desires, jumping into a new relationship (however short, carnal, and understood by both parties) deluding yourself into thinking that this new relationship will magically fix your problems or ease your pain (rather than delay it).
I believe it to be weak to have no other means to command respect than to 'show' the spouse (or former-spouse) how you've moved on by engaging in other relationships. That is - in fact - the OPPOSITE of moving on.
Being dependent on others for your happiness is WEAK. Being healthy, happy, and whole on your own is STRENGTH.
Again, if you do not see a valuable difference in those two, then I am of little service to you.
However, in order to reach the conclusion for your justification, you must used the flawed logic that there are only two options:
1) A doormat who never has sex with anyone else 2) A cheater who won't wait for his divorce to be final to have sex with anyone else
Given those two options, I can see why you would pick option #2. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
What you are missing are alternate options, most notably:
3) Don't be a doormat, but remain faithful while married 4) Pursue divorce and, when it is dissolved, pursue whatever relationship you think is best
I assure you it is possible to keep your word and not be a doormat. You said "Women, especially WAW, are not attracted to a man who pledges to be faithful to their wedding vows when they act the way that my WAW does."
I have to ask, are you seriously arguing that women find it attractive when a man cheats on his wife because his wife has been cheating on him? That's what reels them in?
Regardless, I also have to ask: how would anyone know what you do on your personal time? Are you planning on keeping your W up to date on your sexual encounters? If she isn't kept current with regards to your sex life, how would that possibly be any variable that impacted the equation of how she respects you?
It should be obvious to you now that what you do with your personal life has no bearing on how your wife respects you. And if she happens to be a woman who passes judgement on you because you don't flaunt relationships in her face to (fallaciously) prove to her that you have moved on, then that says a great deal about HER lack of character, and nothing about your respectability. I can't imagine caring about the respect of that type of person anyway.
Don't you want to be a man whose word is oak? And don't you want to be with a woman who values that kind of a man? Doesn't that sound better than just saying whatever you want, knowing you can go back on it whenever it is convenient?
Regarding your 'sexual needs': Don't piddle on my boots and tell me it's raining. You 'need' food. You 'need' water. Without those two you will eventually die. Without sex you will not eventually die.
While the idea of an extended period of time without sex is not a palatable one (to ANYone), let's not pretend that it is something it is not. You are not having sex out of biological necessity, a matter of your survival. Again, as with your ~"there are only these two options" flawed logic, you are either blinding yourself to the truth because you want to justify poor behavior, or - even worse - you actually believe what you have written.
To the former: I hope you take the blinders off and make responsible, informed decisions that aren't based on lies. That is not to suggest that my conclusions are the only way to live life, I just sincerely do hope your decisions are well thought out for your own health and well being.
To the latter: I hope you found my post informative. Let me know if you have questions.
Lastly, and by far most importantly, is I have absolutely no desire to get into internet debates with anyone. That is NOT what this is. I wrote all of this out for one reason:
I see someone who has been rejected by his spouse, is hurting, and is on the brink of ringing a bell that can't be un-rung. I am here only of SINCERE intentions. I get that this post may be heavy-handed, but when I see someone lying to himself to justify behavior, it sends off all kinds of red flags in my mind. A general rule of thumb is if you have to lie to get what you want, then it's probably a bad idea to go after what you think you want. I not attempting to force you to adopt my moral code, I am only attempting to hold up a mirror so you are sure you are not violating your own.
Be sure your decisions are based on whole and good information. Just because your wife is acting a certain way doesn't obligate YOU to act a certain way in retaliation. Your code of conduct is not dependent upon anyone else. There is another way.
As always, it is your call. All the best!
-PM
Last edited by PatientMan; 03/18/1510:15 PM.
M:12y - BD:12/11 - D:6/13 - 4Ds
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." -MLK Jr.
Tough situation you find yourself in right now with waiting out D and feeling like you are ready to have sex with someone else. One year seem like an abnormally long process.
I understand the desire and feelings you have, but I agree with what PM said above ^. My vow was to my wife not to God or a piece of paper just as you have mentioned, but I still would not pursue any sort of relationship while still married in the eyes of the law.
My XW never moved in with OM, so my opinion may have been different if I was in your situation. I guess my only advice is to make sure you fully understand the consequences of your actions if you decide to pursue another woman.
I was so committed to my W that when we were separated I could not even cheat on her while dreaming. I specifically remember a couple different times where I was dreaming and had the opportunity to have "sex" with someone else and I politely turned them down because I was married.
I would say that if you feel like this is something you want to pursue why not take it super slow and just get friendly of flirt lightly with some women and see what that does for your self esteem. I know my has been smashed because of the OM and I often wonder how desirable I am to women. Even now when I can't a cute smile from a random girl it feels great.
M:34 XW:34 Together: 10y Living: 9y Married: 7y Son:6 Son:4 Separated: 12/28/13 Piecing: 5/2/14 Separated 2nd: 10/16/14 W filed, but pulled it: 11/5/14 papers served: 1/27/15 D final: 3/6/15
Well, I didn't mean to start this type of debate, but I figured that I should weigh in a little. I agree, this is a very personal choice with every person having a different basis on how to seek guidance, some from religion, from their own morals, from the law, whatever.
I get the feeling of having these needs and desiring to have them met. I think we all here because this isn't something we take lightly. An open marriage is not in the cards. For Mozza, I can understand his view totally. I don't see M as just a contract, but given his circumstances, I see where I may feel the same way. I also agree with PM that it does complicate things. My only advice is not to do what you 'feel' at the moment, but understand the consequences of any decision one way or another. I think that's what PM was trying to say.
For me, I'm going to do my best to wait this out. However, I see my sitch slightly different than Mozza's. I've said that if my W could sit down and have a (real) conversation with me and tell me this is what she wanted, I may feel divorced, I may not. For me, it's a religious thing right now because I do feel that my commitment was with God too and this is the 'worse' and in 'sickness' of my vows, but that's just my belief. Without that, for me Divorce papers are just that, papers. I Say as long as folks out here consider their options and be careful not to get caught in a situation that they find switching their values (either way) without thinking about it, do whatever.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Mozza, just wanted to chime in, especially since you've commented on my thread numerous times and are aware of my experiences over the past month.
PM makes some good points. I too sense that your debating on dating/sex is more out of feeling hurt and rejection than it is feeling detached and fully ready to move on. You're 'only' 6 mos into S, so my recommendation would be to wait until you feel fully detached and know that no guilt will come of your actions (I remember 6 mos in, thinking I was going to explode if I didn't have sex- I didn't). You could easily justify your actions considering the status of your sitch, but I sense that you'd have some regret afterwards.
However, the decision is obviously yours. We can only provide advice based on our own situations, morals, what you've posted, etc. I don't recall names, but I know I've read posts on these boards of LBS's dating prior to D being finalized and they've received positive feedback. I've also seen the opposite- posters being discouraged from dating (the way your thread seems to be leaning). I think a variety of factors go into that- who's commenting on the threads, the situation, the emotional status of the LBS, length of the S... you get my point.
With that being said, I see no problem in you getting out and flirting and would actually encourage it. It's a huge boost in confidence simply exchanging smiles/eye contact or giving compliments. I actually did it earlier with the older, married cashier at Bath and Body Works! Big smile, friendly conversation, some jokes about a guy being in a candle/fragrance store on my own...Because there's 0% of anything happening, I treat it almost like a game or test. While these little encounters don't meet your 'primal need', they do build up over time and help to fill your 'need' of having that male/female connection that you're missing.
Long story short (too late)- whatever you decide, make sure you aren't acting out of impulse or revenge.
Wow, I'm really grateful for everybody coming to contribute to this discussion. I will read and reread these posts several times and maybe tackle them in different responses. For now, I will only try to clarify a few things.
1. It is not because my W cheated on me that I want to date. She cheated on me in 2009 and I turned down her offer to have a "pass" to make up for it. It's because this time she has completely walked away from the M six months ago and is now living with OM. So it's not a revenge, otherwise I would have done it long ago.
2. I don't want my W to know that I'm dating. That's why I don't create online profiles for instance. This is not at all about her reactions, in fact it's some of the most personal stuff that I'm discussing with my IC. It's about deep issues in me regarding how I relate to women. If she learns about it, then it's fine too.
3. In real life, I'm doing next to nothing. I've spoken to like two girls flirtatiously in the last two months and they might not even be aware that I was flirting :P This being said, of course this discussion is about my intentions and it's true that should my flirt turn into a date and turn into sex, I would go all the way. At this rate, it seems years from now...
4. I'm not that horny! Yes, I have some desire and the idea of sex is appealing, but it doesn't keep me up at night. All I'm saying is that I have no shame for my desires and that they are part of my reflection on myself and my sitch.
The more I think about my posts and the responses, the more I think this is about different perceptions of commitment. It's not about revenge, strategy, carnal desires, etc. I need to re-read and think about it a little more. I'll be happy to read more responses if anyone else has a take on dating and sex before D. Thanks a lot.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Mozza. I completely understand. I mentioned in my thread about the girl from cooking classes. After last night I am into her, in a way, because it's nice to feel wanted after being rejected by someone you love.
Get out there, flirt, date, do something to take your mind off of things and you will be shocked how quickly your perception changes.
For instance, I would have done anything to get my wife back. And I mean anything. But at this point, after our first divorce mediation (tonight) I realized that I do not want the "new" her. I want the "old" her, but that person is long gone. And I am ok with that. Because this gal from cooking class gave my ego just enough stroke to realize that I am still somewhat desirable, that there is someone else out there for me.
Go for it!
Me: 38 W: 32 S10 D6 T: 10 (02/2004) M: 7 (12/2007) Separation 02/2015 OM confirmed 01/2015, D mentioned 12/2014 D finalized 9/2016
In my experience, I remained very vigilant about going off on a slippery slope. During the first several years after Ms. Wonka moved out, I was feeling very rejected and not overall positive about my value as a partner. Out of these feelings, I really felt lonely in terms of companionship. Oh ya...I wanted sex too.
To date others to fill a void from a place of neediness wasn't the way for me as I knew it would complicate things for me and for the other woman. It would not have come from a place of, "oh yeah...I am open to dating and it'll be fun!"....but rather a place of inadequacy and insecurity.
Not a great way to get back into the dating pool.
Now? I am at a place where I feel ready and confident of dating to learn more about others to see if there's a possibility for any further progression. It is a pleasant place to be.
For the longest time, I felt like a bright neon pink "L" blinked from my forehead after Ms. Wonka left. It took me a while to rebuild my own self-worth and discover my own value.
Slippery slopes are dangerous....for many reasons if one is not mindful of their own motivations.
