Onwards and upwards.

[Mozza]

What's wrong with your W's answer? It seems very fine to me and that's what DB advocates. In fact, that's what I told my W when she asked me about contacting my family. She leaves it to you and them, I really don't understand why you're bothered.

Perhaps you would want her to block those contacts so that you could claim to be a victim? "I love them so much, but W won't let me even talk to them!" And what if her stance doesn't reflect her true feelings, what do you care about them anymore?

Of the whole text exchange, I would keep only your first sentence. The worst part was "So no then". She had just been clear and you told her she was lying.

[Barry]

Hi Toots, I'm sure that will be the case with her family. I'd like to stay in touch with them all really.
If they don't want to, then I'll respect that of course.

SIL was saying how horrible it was at Christmas (you're telling me it was!!), as we'd always got together as a family for such a long time. Obviously those sort of things won't happen again, but the occaional phone call, text, or even visit would be nice.
I've never really thought of them as HER family, they've been ours and we have been close.

W has avoided my family like the plague up to know. None of them have seen her since before Christmas and she told me she actually hid from my parents recently. Obviously it's awkward for W, she's the one who wants to split up and she's hurt me deeply so my family are angry with her. W says she doesn't care...yes W, I know you don't!!

Of course if the shoe was on the other foot and I wanted the split and she'd spent 3 months in deep depression, HER family would almost certainly not want to talk to me either. So I understand why my parents are being the way they are. They don't say much to me about her to be honest. They know I don't like bad things said about her.

This is just another one of the sad results of divorce I guess, dealing with ex-in laws too. It's not nice, but then hey, no-one says divorce is a fun thing!!

Ultimatley, my old life is gone (but not forgotten). Time to move on with my kids into what I hope will be an exciting future.

[Barry]

Hi Mozza, good to hear from you.

I pondered over the same thing myself. What IS actually wrong with her answer? I guess I'm annoyed because I'm trying to give her what she wants with the divorce, the money, and I'm not being an a***hole about any of it. In fact, it's ME running around trying to sort it all out.

Now that that's the case, I'd hoped for a little more cooperation and maybe a more friendly manner from W. I wouldn't expect W to not speak to any of my family again, and the "whatever" text from W actually means a lot more than that.

I was annoyed because I've tried to tell my family that although it's going to be strange and probably unpleasant when they eventually see W, to not blank her and try to speak. So it feels like I'm actively trying to pave the way for a more cooperative future between us, and I don't understand why W can't do the same with her family.

Regarding the victim thing, you may be right that that's a subconscious thought - it's not something I'm aware of thinking but then we're back into the "what is water" scenario again.
I probably still have a lot of work to do in that area. Thanks for pointing this out.

What do I care about her true feelings? Not much tbh, the same as she does about mine.

[Mozza]

It seems like you're bothered because you're still too attached to her reactions. You want her to be grateful and cooperative. Remember that it's not that she's your W in a bad mood; she's in a different mindset altogether. If she were in a coma, would you be upset that she doesn't respond to your questions? Try to think of her current situation similarly and have no expectations.

You chose to tell your family how to behave with your WAW. You went beyond what is recommended by DB and you probably meant well, because you're a Nice Guy. But that got you in a covert contract: I'm Nice to you hence you will be Nice to me. It's a setup for disappointment and anger. And that's what you got. In fact, she probably didn't care one bit about your "generous" intervention on her behalf, which happens all the time to Nice Guys. Take responsibility for your own needs.

On that note, stop thinking that you're nice in giving her the divorce that she wants. You don't have a choice. Same for the financials: you know you're coming on top so you're doing it for yourself. And there are no medals for "Not Being An A-hole"; it's just the honorable thing to do and you benefit from it more than anyone. This is another example of you being Nice and expecting people to fulfill your needs in return.

This was a very mature response on your part, by the way.

[Barry]

Ahh Mozza, I've missed you on my thread.
You always seem to see right through me and always have good advice.

Every word of your post is accurate and I need to work on those things. I've made some considerable progress on the Nice Guy front recently, I should probably re-read NMMNG though. I do find myself stopping myself from saying things or acting in a certain way now (not with W, just in general) because I see old habits creeping in from time to time. It takes time to change habits of a lifetime I guess.

On an unrelated matter, I recieved an email this afternoon from a woman I haven't seen for a few years...we used to be work colleagues.
W met her a couple of times and thought that she would make my eyes wander (she's an incredibly attractive, younger, educated woman). I never saw her "that" way tbh and I was happily married to W.
We worked very closely on some projects and it was more her humour I found likeable. That and her infectious laugh! I think she may have had a soft spot for me though, and I think W saw it too.

Anyway, she said she'd heard about my sitch, was sorry to hear that blah blah blah (heard it all a thousand times now). She said that W must be crazy to let me go and asked if I wanted to meet up for a coffee sometime.
She now lives about 50 miles away so it's not just stopping by for a coffee as such. I haven't responded yet.

Of course I'm certain she just means a friendly coffee. I'm by no means looking to date anyone even if it were anything other than that. This is all way too raw at the moment. However, I felt lifted by it and it made me think that yes, I actually do have a lot to offer a R one day.

It's a shame it can't be with W but that's just how it is now.

Barry.

p.s Mozza, did you read my last post on my previous thread.
It explains a lot about me.

[Mozza]

I noticed that you've made a lot of progress on the Nice Guy front and in fact I'm impressed that you progressed so fast because it didn't look promising in the beginning. It's all for you.

Another book that you might consider is "Models" by Mark Manson. It's about attracting women through honesty (not pick-up lines) and what I've read so far (10% of the book) applies perfectly to re-attracting our WAW. This section talks about how neediness is repulsive to women, more than to men, and yet it's a behavior that we see a lot from LBH on these boards. Sandi2, Wonka and Starsk309 are three of the main critics of the doormat/gay boyfriend approach. You have been criticized for this (along with 90% of us LBH) and I think you still display some of this behavior with your WAW. Anyway, another book to consider.

As you know, I'm always interested to see what kind of external opportunities LBS get, so I'm interested in this old colleague getting in touch. I'd say that in your case, your emotions are too raw but also your WAW has not put herself into some of the more extreme situations, like mine has (moving in with OM), so your justification for going on dates or making moves on other women is on less solid ground. I'm not saying that's what you're doing with her, it's just a thought about the general topic in your sitch.

I have seen your post at the end of your other thread. My first question is: Why did you bury it there while you had already started this new thread?

[Barry]

I had to make progress in general, I could feel myself sinking.
Obviously I don't feel amazing about things, but I'm living again now.
I'll check out the book above, sounds interesting. It's not going to help me with my WAW, that ship has sailed but neediness has been one of my biggest character flaws for a long time. It's strange, I'm only really like that around W. This is one of the reasons I've decided to D. Although I love her still, she doesn't bring out the best in me any more. Right now, she feels toxic to me actually.

Regarding the coffee invite, as I say, I'm sure it's an innocent invite from the woman and I only mentioned it because it cheered me up a bit. W and I have agreed to remain single until the D happens. I'm fairly sure she'll keep to her word on that, and I have no intention of doing anything untoward either. For me, I do miss female company though. Not even the physical aspects so much (but boy I'm getting there!). I think I'll go, it'll be good to see her again and as I say, she's a funny (and fun) person. I need more people like that in my life right now.

I put that post on my last thread because I was trying to keep this thread positive in nature. That post describes the most shameful thing I've ever done in my life Mozza. If I'm honest with myself, I'm still ashamed to this day. I have to forgive myself completly and forget about it. I was never able to do that in my M, I was never able to say to W "I've never cheated on you", it felt like such a burden.
As I said, W forgave me years ago, it's a shame I couldn't do the same.

As I move on with my life, and maybe in time meet someone new, I won't have that with them. I can start anew, with a clean slate. That gives me hope.

[Mozza]

As I've stated before, I'm concerned that you try to bury your actions under your words. This has been an issue at the beginning of your sitch and I suspect that it was there in your relationship. So to me it was a bad sign that you buried a very important confession into an old thread. A positive thread is one that takes you towards happiness. Its about your attitude: being optimistic, honest, mature, strong, etc. It sometimes involve painful steps, including confessions. This confession of yours is such a step. Now you're unlikely to get much exposure and feedback for it. It's almost removed from your sitch history on these boards because it is appended at the end of an old thread. If you don't mind, I would suggest that you repost it here. I almost did it when I saw it, but I decided that this was a decision for you to make.

By the way, if I have anything to contribute to your sitch, it's because of how similar to you I was and I am. I am upset at my own faults and weaknesses and spend a great deal of energy to fix them. It upsets me when I observed them and their impact in others. Some of my friends get the same treatment as you. I might be a few weeks ahead of you, but that's it. If anything, I am a zealous convert.

By the way, in general try not to start new threads until you reach 100 posts. It makes your stich easier to follow. I know why you did it, but it's very rarely done around here and not really advised.

[Barry]

Ok, so for those that haven't seen this. I've copied it over from my old thread.
Mozza is right, I shouldn't have hidden it away.

Hello everyone, I have something to say, something I've not told the forum before. It's important but please don't judge me for it, it was a very long time ago. It had a big impact on me, my W and my M for a long time. As I reflect on how I find myself here, this is something that's had a profound effect on me all my life.

I cheated on my W when we'd been married for about a year.

This would be 20 years ago now. I don't even know why I did it. I prided myself on being someone who would never do that and I was very much in love with my W. I was such an a***hole.
I broke it off with OW. I was very attracted to her but I couldn't do it to my W any more. OW told me in the same phone call that she was pregnant.
She had a termination and I never saw her again.

About 6 months later, OW called my workplace one night (I worked shifts back then) to tell me she was going to tell my W as she felt I'd left her in the lurch and had got away with it (she was right, I had).

She'd found out where I lived and had been spying on the house. I told her there and then that I would tell my W rather than her hear it from an OW and she said she was going to tell her the next day.
I left work, went home and woke my wife at about 1:00am and told her everything. She was devastated and something died in her and in our M that day.

I left the house and slept in my car for a couple of days. I was so ashamed of myself. I had been for a long time, and I was almost glad I'd told her.
I called W a few days later and she said to come home.
We talked about it, and I answered every question she asked truthfully. We both cried, but she was so hurt by it. Anyway, she said she wanted me to stay and for us to work things out. She hadn't told anyone about it and she wanted it to stay that way. Our families still didn't know up to BD, although hers probably do now. Mine still don't.

I've never wanted to jeopardise my life that that again. I'm not a serial cheater and I've never even considered being intimate with anyone else in 20 years. I mean that.

It took a long time to gain her trust back but we were both determined to make it work. After a year and a half or so, she told me that she'd forgiven me but she'd never forget it. It affected me for years though, too many years. I let my W dominate me in a lot of ways because I walked on eggshells for most of our early marriage. I'd hurt the one I loved in the worst way possible and I was always trying to make amends even after she said she forgave me.

This went on in my head for so many years that it became engrained into my very being. It wasn't in the forefront of my mind all the time obviously but it became the norm that I'd always be the one to back down on everything. My W never apologised for anything in our M.

We went to Greece for a week on our 15th wedding anniversary and whilst we were there, something bought the topic up. I told my W that I still felt sorry for what I did back then, but that it had made me love her more when I realised what I was could have lost. She told me to let it go, that she never thought about it and only ever thought of me as a faithful husband. We ML that night and it was the best of our lives. In fact, those were the best years around that time.

I've never been able to forgive myself completely for it though. I always only ever wanted to please my wife and to make her happy. Over the years, I suffocated my W with love into becoming a WAW. It was her decision to go but I paved the way.

So here I am, about to be a divorced all because I couldn't forget the past.
As the saying goes, we reap what we sow.

[Barry]

Hi all, just a quick post to say nothing really to report on the financial side of things so far. Still working on it all, and I don't want to file until I know for sure that I can take STBX's offer. NC with her, and that's the way it shall stay until I have some news on the offer or the D. She'll just have to be patient.
I'm setting the pace on all of this now.

I took D16 and S13 for dinner this evening which was nice. I need to just get this all over with now and get back home. I'm already in single Dad mode of course but I don't see the kids as much as I'd like and miss the boring stuff, making the dinner, helping with homework, or just sitting watching the TV with them. They're all taking this much better now they can see that Dad isn't falling apart at the seams. It's what lets me know that I'm on the right path for me and them.

I also had an opportunity presented to me at work today. It'll mean working away for 2 or 3 days a week in a big city around 300 miles away. It's a 3 month deal, in which time I'll learn some new skills (and teach others some of mine).
Obviously this'll have an negative effect on seeing the kids so I'm still undecided on it. My boss knows my sitch and saw it as an opportunity to get away from my home town for a couple of days a week. I think I'll do it, mainly because I won't know anyone there and it could be a great GAL activity in the evenings. Nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say.

Barry