Mozza (10) + Links to success stories

[SunnyB]

I've been in love before.

The hardest part is when you're in it.

[Mozza]

Train | Thank you so much. What a fantastic post of hope and trust. These are the two tings that my heart wants more than anything, but my head is not there. Part of me wants to shut the door on her for good because I truly believe no one, not even me, will make her faithful and committed for more than 5 years. But another part of me is in love with her (still...) and hopes to reconcile and live the rest of our lives together. I was able to forgive her first A on the spot because I couldn't bear the thought of being without her and I feel like she still has this power over me and will always be because I value commitment more than her, who values passion first.

It's interesting that you're dealing now with the cause of the A. I'm concerned that in my case it's unworkable. We haven't had much of a talk about it, but she gave me the same reason both times: lack of passion. Do I have any chance of being in a long term relationship with kids and feed the passion for ever and ever? There can certainly be improvements on my part, with or without her, but I will never be perfect, routine sets in and I don't want to live in the fear that a slip on my part means she will cheat or leave.

I disagree or don't understand when you say that it won't matter if she cheats again because I will be my best self and know that I'll be fine if she leaves again ("But once you find yourself, you won't be saddled - or at least feel burdened - with the same questions you have right now. Because you KNOW you'll be okay, no matter who (or where) your W ends up being."). I know that I'll be fine and always have, time heals everything. Yet, I never want to hurt like this again. Also, I value commitment and long term relationships and I want to be with the same person for as long as possible, support and trust her. To me, every year adds value to a R, and I want to be with someone who shares this assessment.

Mach1 | Thanks for your post. If it doesn't show that I do all of this for myself, then I'm not communicating well. Again, I give my W no way of even seeing my changes. I don't see a contradiction between working on myself and reflecting on her nature. I don't dwell on her every move (I try not to know about it), I think about whether that's someone I want in my life and that seems central to my sitch. I wouldn't stop saving myself and improving even if I decided to never let her back, should she ask. Let's face it though: I'm Divorce Busting because I hope to Bust my Divorce. As Train's post shows, people with serial cheaters struggle with that question.


rppfl | Yes, it's hard to be in love, especially when it's not reciprocated. I had my first girlfriend at 20, so you can imagine that I spent the years from 12 to 20 yo in this situation, including the sensitive teen years. It leaves traces and one of them is that I find it normal and acceptable to be in love with someone who does not love me back; I don't detach easily and I don't feel like there are many other options. I was never dumped though, so this feeling now is a new experience.

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PMA Report | Yesterday, we passed the six months mark of my S. It feels like a milestone. I wonder why I'm still so sad, but six months is not a long time to get over a M. I also read an article suggesting it takes some 18 months, so I will just accept my emotions for a while. I'm much better than four or five months ago anyway. Still, I plan to bring up my sadness with my IC today.

Detachment report | W and I barely get in touch, even about the kids, so I was surprised to get a text at around midnight yesterday telling me that there was a fire near her place and that she was fine. It turned out to be far enough from her place. For a long while after she left, she turned to me for questions of safety. I'm surprised that she did again yesterday. I cried a little as I always do when I hear from her and then fell asleep. I only responded this morning, thanking her for the info.

GAL Report | A close friend took me to a sports game on Tuesday evening. It was a great activity, even though I don't follow sports much. We had excellent tickets. I'm really grateful to have friends like this who are very supportive and present. Other than that, I have the kids this week, so other than working and keeping them happy (fed, rested, clean, amused, etc...), I don't GAL all that much during the week.

[Mozza]

For the record, here is what sandi2 replied to my question on a different thread about the wayward wife. I'll reply in a post below.

Mozza, sorry that I am just now getting back to your question.

The reason I'm still wondering relates to your comment about the moral character of the W. My W cheated on me in 2009 with another sweet talking colleague. She kept it a secret and told me that she would leave me because we were incompatible or something to that effect. As she told me, she slept with him twice during a business trip. She said at the time that she saw the light and confessed her A to me, telling me that she would stay if I forgave her, which I did on the spot. We moved on but little changed in our couple past the first couple of months.

So fast forward to 2014 and, once again, we're incompatible, she needs to be alone, to find herself, etc. Our M is a disappointment because it only delivers half-emotions. The original romance is gone and we fight too much. Turns out there's another OM, a colleague again.

So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater? Is it possible that those were two exceptions? If she's a serial cheater in your opinion, should I just cut my losses and hope that she'll never come back?

I don't wish to make this any more complicated that it already may be. Psychologists would probably break it down into more complex categories, IDK. But trying to keep basically to where I started, I believe it is what's in the heart before an A ever happens. Whatever moral and spiritual/religious foundation they received while their character was being molded in childhood to adulthood, IMHO (and I am certainly no expert), would have a great influence on those type of decisions in life. It does not always prevent a person from being wayward, b/c it is an act of volition. People can change (either direction) and do not always adhere to their parents or even their own previous belief system. And since we know a WW is acting from emotions, there will be a clash between what she knows in her heart is right & wrong with what she is desiring/feeling.

I went online to copy the definition of the word "wayward" and this is what it gave:

Difficult to control or predict because of unusual or perverse behavior. synonyms: willful, headstrong, stubborn, obstinate, obdurate, perverse, contrary, disobedient, insubordinate, undisciplined

The Bible refers to a the "strange woman," as the King James Version calls her. Other translations refer to this immoral woman as a "seductress," "adulteress," "wayward wife," "loose woman."

So, is she a WW who lost her morals or is she a serial cheater?

IMO, it is not an issue of loosing but of choosing. We should make our decisions based on what we know is right & wrong, and not on how we feel. I don't know your W's moral character, but I would guess she knows it is not right to be in a M and be involved with another man. She allowed her emotions to lead her astray, instead of doing what she knew to be right. She was not innocent. She wanted something strong enough to put her M and family at risk to have it, although it was wrong in several areas of moral character. B/c she chooses to do what she knows is immorally wrong for a married woman, she becomes wayward in her thinking, emotions, and behavior.

A person can also choose to come back from that state of being wayward and begin acting on what they know is the right thing to do. Apparently, that is what your W chose to do after her A in 2009. However, I can't remember the details, so I don't know if she chose to simply do the right thing, or if there was another motivation. Make sense? In other words, some people may appear to walk the walk but their heart is not feeling it.

Then your W has another A only five years later. As I said, I don't know her moral character and can only tell by her actions that she is either giving over to her wayward desires and allowing those feelings to be in charge of her decisions in spite of what she knows to be morally wrong....or else she has never had strong moral character which is now evident by her choices. To say it bluntly, some people just don't care.

I believe we choose to have moral character. It helps tremendously to have adults who are our models and try earnestly to pass forward, but ultimately, it is up to each of us.

All I can say is according to her actions, she is definitely a wayward wife at this time. Would she ever make changes and be faithful for the duration of her life? IDK. She's had two A's in five years while M. I, personally, see it as a high risk when there has been more than one A.

You are the one who has to decide if you believe she would ever stay faithful and if you could take that risk again. Could you ever completely trust her again? ((Mozza))

Sorry for such a lengthy answer.

[Heart14]

I don't want to live in the fear that a slip on my part means she will cheat or leave again.

I disagree or don't understand when you say that it won't matter if she cheats again because I will be my best self and know that I'll be fine if she leaves again ("But once you find yourself, you won't be saddled - or at least feel burdened - with the same questions you have right now. Because you KNOW you'll be okay, no matter who (or where) your W ends up being."). I know that I'll be fine and always have, time heals everything. Yet, I never want to hurt like this again. Also, I value commitment and long term relationships and I want to be with the same person for as long as possible, support and trust her. To me, every year adds value to a R, and I want to be with someone who shares this assessment.

Mozz, I understand what you are saying. I voiced a similar concern on my thread. The response I received was awesome. This feeling is a response to your fear. It will diminish when you trust YOURSELF. You trust that what you've learned and the changes you've made will carry you through anything that comes your way. You are strong. Yes, it would be painful if W cheated/left again. You can't control that or know if it will happen in the future. You can only trust yourself and how you will respond if it does.

[Train]

More later, but I should have been more specific in that part. I meant that in the context of her being wayward and not necessarily in the event you reconcile. BUT, I love Heart's response.

If you're up to reading my (sometimes speculative and irrelevant) ramblings (lol), I will dig in to a couple other things you mentioned when I'm back on my computer.

[Mozza]

sandi2 - Thank you so much for taking the time to respond at length to my questions. They are very important to me at the moment and I greatly appreciate your insights.

I don't wish to make this any more complicated that it already may be. Psychologists would probably break it down into more complex categories, IDK. But trying to keep basically to where I started, I believe it is what's in the heart before an A ever happens. Whatever moral and spiritual/religious foundation they received while their character was being molded in childhood to adulthood, IMHO (and I am certainly no expert), would have a great influence on those type of decisions in life.

My W had a paradoxical upbringing: on the one hand, she was spoiled as an only child of wealthy parents. She went to the best schools, on fantastic holidays, she never had a summer or part-time job in her life because her parents paid everything for her (tuition, allocation, rent, etc.) until she was with me, at 24. On the other hand, her mom was authoritarian and left little room for my W's own personality. My W had to do what good and serious people do. She's not even interested in her degrees' topics. It's only in recent years that she has started following her heart in her career, with my support and encouragement.

The impact, in my opinion, is that on the one hand she got more reward than the effort she put in, both financially and in interpersonal relations. She developed a strong flight mechanism. When it became challenging with me, she flew again rather than fix it, like she does for her jobs, her cities, her friends. I can't believe I didn't see it coming. On the other hand, she's had a hard time to discover herself and got to it late, so now she's on a roll and decided that the next step was without me.

IMO, it is not an issue of loosing but of choosing. We should make our decisions based on what we know is right & wrong, and not on how we feel. I don't know your W's moral character, but I would guess she knows it is not right to be in a M and be involved with another man. She allowed her emotions to lead her astray, instead of doing what she knew to be right. She was not innocent. She wanted something strong enough to put her M and family at risk to have it, although it was wrong in several areas of moral character. B/c she chooses to do what she knows is immorally wrong for a married woman, she becomes wayward in her thinking, emotions, and behavior.

My W had been cheated on when she was in college and she was still traumatized by the experience when we met. She was like a scared animal about it. Being faithful and finding a faithful man was at the top of her list. It was a no-brainer for me so it gave her reassurance. Yet, she cheated twice on me and now I'm the scared animal. So yes, I believe that there is a clash between her values and her behavior. I'm not sure she'll ever be able to overcome her emotions to live according to her values though.

Of course, I haven't resolved the question and don't face this dilemma immediately as my W is far from showing signs she wants to reconcile. I'll continue my thinking about it and welcome very much the experience of others who have to cope with serial cheaters.

[MCS]

Of course, I haven't resolved the question and don't face this dilemma immediately as my W is far from showing signs she wants to reconcile. I'll continue my thinking about it and welcome very much the experience of others who have to cope with serial cheaters.

Mozza,

For me, W told me when I confronted about OM that there was "other" things that happened over our R. When she finally told me, she said she kissed or tried to kiss 4 different men over the period of our R (15 years.) Now, she didn't have to tell me that at the time, because I definitely had no clue (well she did tell me one of them after it happened like 13 years ago, they were both drunk.)

Does that make her a serial cheater? IDK and she may have been using it to bolster her idea that now I knew about OM, this would help drive me further away. However, I did see this in her personality and maybe your W is the same way. I look back and now I see W always seemed to be 'missing' something. It manifested itself in a bunch of different ways, but she just never could be satisfied with just being her. There was always the 'next thing' that she needed. I was okay with that, because we were building our lives together (college, job, house, kids) but now we were at the point were life kind of was put on hold because of the kids. Its almost like W got 'antsy' because things were settled and we were in a groove, or so I thought. I think that symptom of always looking for something is similar to cheating, and 25years said it a while ago. There's something within 'them' that is missing and not just in the marriage. Since they are not satisfied with themselves, being happy with yourself is not attainable. Then the pursuit of happiness is in other people and situations. Its one of the things that I think DB tries to prevent in us as LBH. Our happiness is not in being in a R with our W, but in who we are. I tell people a lot, I'm happy with my life with the exception of the big issue with my W. I truly look at everyday and at some point realize how lucky I am. I tried to talk to W about that casually at some point and she just didn't seem to understand it at all. I think she thought I was not being genuine.

A lot of people say that 'a cheater never changes' however, I think that as long as the cheater identifies, resolves and continues to resolve the issue that lead to cheating, it probably won't happen again. If they are stopping the cheating because of convenience, than I think the behavior comes back.

My W has always had a vein of selfishness in her, between that and not being comfortable with herself are the two things that I've identified that she needs to change pretty substantially for us to R.

Just my thoughts

[Mozza]

I don't always know what to write in my thread because things are so quiet with WAW. It seems like I should be reporting on our interactions, but then I remember this this should be about how I'm moving on and saving myself. So, here goes.

Thank you so much to all of you who take the time to share your thoughts. I hope that others benefit from the conversation, much like I do when I read your threads.

Heart14 | Thanks for sharing your insights on how to cope with the fear of a cheating spouse. It's still hard for me to believe that I'll be just fine if it happens again. I seem to need more reassurance that it won't happen. At the same time, I have realized that no one is safe from cheating, not even all of us here that might be cheaters under the right set of circumstances, as impossible as it is to consider right now.

Train | Absolutely! I'd love to hear your "ramblings". I find your experience very relatable and I like to read you.

MCS | Thanks for sharing your experience. I'd say that my WAW has the same instinct to be looking for the next thing and it's interesting to think of it as a form of cheating. On that not, I would consider kissing someone else while drunk a very minor kind of cheating, certainly not ground for S. Another reason for the flirting experiment is that I'd like to play down sex. It's so sacred and unattainable to me, yet I realize that there's a whole world out there that is more casual about it and I've a thing or two to learn from them.
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IC Report | I bought a book along the lines of what we hear here and in NMMNG and with my IC. The translation of the title would be "Stop being nice, be real" (it's not the one you'll find under this English title). What strikes me is that the same message is repeated across many places. It's like I stumble upon a universal truth (IC agrees): find out who you are and be true to it. Good things will happen to you. The book gave me a realization: it's not really about knowing exactly who you are, wht you need and desire (it's impossible), but seeking to know it (IC agrees). I thought I had to know it real soon, but it seems like I've already achieved my goal by asking the question.

Flirting report | No real life experience to report. It's been weeks and it concerns me that I'm no longer getting over my fears of approaching women. On the other hand, I was recently recommended (by a 21 yo guy!) to read "Models" by Mark Manson which is about attracting women through honesty. It's not one of those books with ready-made pickup lines. It seems to be a mix between these books about discovering yourself and books about approaching women. I've read one chapter and it looks promising.

Detachment Report | My IC observed that many things that I do are still done with my WAW in mind. I hate to admit it, but it's true. I'm always aware of when I do something that might get to her. I know I shouldn't and I'm getting better at it. She posted twice on her blog and it came through me through channels that I had set up years ago to monitor blogs. Each time, I removed my subscription to her blog, so I should no longer see them. I did read the posts (nothing too personal, more about her readings) and I did learn that she's now using a night light and is double checking the locks because she's anxious. (stinking thinking alert!) It seems like her OM is not really providing the sense of security that I was giving her.

GAL Report | Hm, not enough to report. I only went out for dinners alone all three days and today (Sunday), I went for a bit of late afternoon shopping. My plans for snowboarding feel through at the last minute. I had a difficult moment Saturday night where I could see in a mirror my reflection alone at a table in the restaurant. I don't mind being alone, but I mind being without WAW under these circumstances. The me I'm used to would be at a table with W and two kids, not alone. After that, I cancelled my plans to go for a drink and came back home to cry...

PMA Report | Not so good, but not all that bad. It was not a fun week-end, but it wasn't a depressed one either. After six months, things are not as painful as they used to be in the weeks following BD.

[jim0987]

Hi Mozza,

Its interesting that your thinking about whether you could trust your wife again after all of this. Its an important line of thinking but it may also be 'borrowing trouble from tomorrow'

That sounds like an interesting book. I've also found that there is a lot of common ground about being true to yourself and to live your life as best you can, the rest will take care of itself. Not sure if thats too much expectation but it seems like a good principle

Just looking at your GAL report and am curious what sort of GAL plans do you have that involve a more social aspect?

Anyway hope your doing well

[Mozza]

jim00987! I'm so glad to see you around. You haven't updated us on your sitch in over two weeks and in fact your thread is locked. Will you start a new one? I have questions for you, but I'll keep them for your thread.

I kind of agree that I'm borrowing trouble from the future by asking if I can ever trust my W again. It's not like it's an immediate concern. I probably do it because I have trouble detaching and taking my focus away from her. If I come to the conclusion that I can't trust her, then I'll move on for good. But it seems like her attitude in any reconciliation attempt would make a whole difference, and that I can't know until it happens. So I should probably rest it.

On the GAL, honestly I have next to no plans when I don't have the kids. Tonight, I'm having dinner with a friend, Wednesday I'm playing badminton and Thursday I might see another friend. But I'm not volunteering anywhere, I'm not taking regular classes, I haven't joined any kind of group, etc.