Zelda - Navigating old ruts and land mines in M.2

[Zelda09]

Thanks, Calibri...

I agree...H is doing the best he can. I've caught him saying a lot of disparaging things about himself/comparison to me. He's frustrated that in his words, "you process faster, move faster, think better" and out MC has been working on us to respect each other's differences - that as an introvert and 'pointer', being abstract as he is, he'll say as few words as he thinks he needs to and needs time and space in a conversation. As an extrovert, 'painter', and out loud processor, I will be wordy. But he can choose to be patient and 'overcommunicate' and I can be patient and get to a point he can wrap his head around.

I thought this morning a lot about the reality of people changing. H has had this mindset for years. He said to be last night, sadly, that with our similar backgrounds he thought we'd be able to relate. Well, we did. In the beginning. Someone that has suffered an abusive or substance abusive household will have places in their heart that are unrecognizable to others that had stability. I said to him that we did relate, but we just came to different conclusions from our experiences. What I didn't say - I'm not interested in my past defining me. It taught me, but it was my choice what to do with it. I didn't say this to him though, bc the implication is that he's 'less' for being (choosing) to keep making excuses around it.

He's also said many times he is trying, trying to choose life, trying to be happy. He just hasn't found the tools yet. I heard his IC say to him that it is a cognitive style of his that is keeping him from moving forward, not the depression. You can almost see the fog.

However...

Last night he drove in both directions somewhere, his idea. That was huge. He's going to yoga, trying to reap the spiritual and physical benefits. Also huge. I have to recognize that he is trying to take care of himself. Just bc he's not moving at my speed or doing things I'd list as priorities...wasn't that one of my goals on the beginning of this thread, not to see him thru my values?

So. I called him a bit ok to ask how he was, checking in. Sounded like he was calmer thanked me for the call and for thinking of him. He said he would go to MC on Monday with me, and we have some plans for a good time with friends tonight.

I picked up a card for him with messages of support and encouragement.

Earlier I wrote that I was seeing that I could change the dance, and I am trying to be consistent in that approach.

I suppose, like V said, I'll know when standing isn't working any more. I have to be realistic as much as I am hopeful. All this change and efforts costs a great amount, and it's natural to wonder if maybe there is someone out in the world who shares my values, where they aren't set up to be in such conflicting positions?

You are right about the eggshells I feel. Feels miserable and so one sided despite the 2-3 times H has let me lean on him. He admitted his batting avg to this point is more 300 to 3 this year.

I am scared to give up and turn toward D. If I get right down to it, it's fear of frying pan to the fire. I've looked at egg freezing risks, costs, realities and I just feel like it's a big marketing ploy to play on fears of women like me. I fear I'm losing the chance to build the family I want if I give up but I fear that I'm in a losing situation sometimes, that change and progress and hope here is not moving with my body.

I fear that I'm all over the place in how I regard my H, and I don't know if that is something within me, or that is an honest acceptable set of feelings in response to what I see as unstable in him. Where to draw the line between self-improvement and just saying the grass may well be greener elsewhere?

[susana4]

Z
((()))

I think the most important thing is to know, right now, you don't have to make any choices. You can continue to live life one day at a time. I think in order to move down the path towards D, you need to be absolutely certain, and know that you've felt that you can no longer stand for a substantial amount of time.

The walking on eggshells, and feel like you can't lean on him? That doesn't sound good.

Have you thought about moving to the piecing forum? I wonder if some of the folks over there might be able to help more given they're further along in their journeys than most of us here on Newcomers. From what I've heard, it seems fairly common for the LBS to become a potential WAS around the time of piecing.

It must be so frustrating and exhausting to feel like you are still walking on eggshells around him all the time.

You have been heading for awhile towards feeling exasperated, I know when we all told you to GAL and get away for the weekend. Now I'm going to ask again - any chance you can go away for the weekend, or even a bit longer, make a long weekend of it? Can you go visit friends or family? Just to clear your head a little.

Are you seeing an IC? What do they say? (If not, can you? Would be helpful)

[Sotto]

Hi Zelda

I'm sorry things are feeling tough right now. I think you and H have made lots of progress in your sitch and I've enjoyed reading about it thinking - maybe I might be there one day.

But people say piecing is hard. Harder than DBing. In dbing, you are responsible for yourself and to en extent you 'protect' your heart by detaching. In piecing you open it to your S again, and that must feel scary.

It sounds like you are both making big efforts to move forwards - but it isn't without fits and starts - a couple of steps forwards - a step back and so on.

Good advice from Susana, and maybe a good idea to have a look at the piecing forum. Given all the progress you've made, it doesn't sound like you need to be thinking about D - just that you feel disappointed and disheartened, but will regroup. And your H sounds like he wants to do the same.

It will perhaps be good to maintain some of those 'personal interests' separate from H too - and the same for him, as they are a resource for you both if things get tricky from time to time.

I think you're both doing really well though Zelda ((()))

[Wonka]

Z,

I enjoy reading your posts for you're really putting the hard internal work into trying to see things from different perspectives.

This jumped out at me:

I fear that I'm all over the place in how I regard my H, and I don't know if that is something within me, or that is an honest acceptable set of feelings in response to what I see as unstable in him. Where to draw the line between self-improvement and just saying the grass may well be greener elsewhere?

Does there have to be a line in there?

Is it mutually exclusive?

That could be equally applicable to your M as well.

What do you think, Z?

[Zelda09]

Toots, Susana, Wonka and Calibri -

Your feedback is much appreciated. Maybe it is time for a move to the piecing forum. Piecing is an apt word - pieces of trust, faith, past, future, good, bad, like a puzzle that ended up all over the floor.

I will respond to the rest in a bit.

I have been thinking of something. Maybe it is time for a fresh open-ended look at who we are and what we want. There are too many conversations to be had, and the ones we had years ago seem to hardly apply. I am thinking that maybe H and I can respond openly over time and word processing to this list I've put together. Maybe it will help us get clear on what we really want and believe. That we could take a few weeks and print, share our responses with each other, digest, discuss in little pieces if we see things differently. Like practical working vows, our first drafts. So many of our bad days lately seem to stem from expectations misplaced or communication, divergences on big things. This is what I have:

What do you think of the idea?

Big questions

- What do you hope that your partner will provide for you in support
(physically, emotionally, monetarily?)

- What will you give to a relationship with your partner (physically,
emotionally, monetarily?)

-What is important that you have in common with a partner?

-What is the biggest weakness you have in relationships?

-What strengths do you bring to relationships?

- How do you feel about having a family?

- What are your biggest life goals? How can your partner help with those?

- Paint a picture of the kind of life you'd hope to build with your
partner (lifestyle, community, middle and old age)

- What are deal-breakers for you in a relationship?

-If you find yourself romantically drawn to someone else, how will you handle?

- What do you believe the role of your relationship is in the greater
scheme of your life?


Meeting each other

-How do you believe your partner should gain understanding of your
needs and wants?

-What needs or wants do you wish your partner to meet for you?

-If you partner isn't meeting your needs or wants, how will you handle?

-What does quality time in a relationship look like for you?

-When is it or what is it that makes you feel most loved?

-What makes you feel un-loved?


Communication

- If there is a conflict of values, needs or wants, how do you believe
that should be handled?

-When is it better to not communicate?

-How should a disagreement be resolved?

- What do you believe about apologies?

- During low periods of the relationship, how will you handle? How do
you wish your partner to handle?

- If your partner offends you or lets you down, how will you handle that?

- If your partner is offended or let down by you, how do you prefer
they handle that?


Day to Day

-What does an ideal week look like for you?

- What kind of recreation do you enjoy most or need?

- What is an ideal vacation?

- How important is diet and exercise and shared health attitudes?

- What expectations are fair to have of a partner?

- What do you believe about division of work/life/household
responsibilities in a relationship?

- What role do friends and family play in your daily life, ideally?

- What kinds of things do you want to do/experience independent of your partner?

- What do you believe about sharing financial goals and accountability?

- Should your partner have a role in helping with your general goals
and accountability?

- What are your financial priorities and beliefs?

- Sexually, what do you want?

[Wonka]

Z,

Those questions look a bit like interrogation. Perhaps a better approach would be to have some random discussions about your dreams and aspirations. That can be a bonding moment for couples. Then from that point, one delve a bit further into some specifics.

I have just finished a book called Intellectual Foreplay:Questions for Lovers & Lovers To Be by Eve Eschner Hogan with Steven Hogan. I would start with you first...do those exercises by yourself.

At some point, it might be useful to bring H into this process.

[Zelda09]

Wonka

I think you hit upon something. I am direct. Gently stating things is not my natural MO. When I ask questions, they probably do sound like an interrogation. The job thing, the one that H blew up about this morning, that is not a new sore spot. For some time I have made him feel like he was under pressure during these conversations. I just don't know how to avoid it. When I try to be gentle, he asked me to be more blunt. I can really never win. Any of this is loaded, because we already know where we stand with a lot of it, or rather he knows where I stand with it and he is still trying to figure out himself. Conversations get heated do quickly, even when what I ask is innocent, if it touches on an insecurity of his or a prior fight.

Which is why I thought written framework would be better...

Idk. As to your other post -

I think that is the conclusion he came to. Before he came back to our marriage, that he could work on himself and go on a journey, but he wanted new joys and new problems to solve with a new person in a new relationship.

[Wonka]

Z,

I think that is the conclusion he came to. Before he came back to our marriage, that he could work on himself and go on a journey, but he wanted new joys and new problems to solve with a new person in a new relationship.

What your H is alluding here is that your M had gotten into a rut. That is the danger of being in a long-term marriage. It is hard work to nurture it and keep it fresh.

To counteract the rut, a couple needs to find a balance between keeping things interested through solo and joint interests.

In addressing the danger of getting into a rut, why don't you take the initiative and ask H about taking a cooking class, woodworking class, painting, .....you get the idea. Plan a foray in your local area to learn new stuff together. Frame it as an adventure to H without the added expense.

In fact, I am planning on seeing a month-long event at a local university that will be displaying and show casing various African masks.

[Vanilla]

Z

My view is that from what I see of Z, she quickly reacts to consider D. There is no space at all, that looks like emotional flooding to me. I recognise it because that caused my screaming banshee to emerge.

All is fine then bang, flooding. I would like to know Z has this more under control before she starts to piece. Z needs more work on Z.

Emotional Flooding

What does Wonka think?

V

[Zelda09]

Vanilla, this is a very good summary of what usually happens during our fights. But I would've said this is what I experienced from my husband.

My feelings yesterday, I felt like I was coming from a calm place, and just having a look at the situation and reality of the last six years. To say I want to divorce, yes, a little too final. But I think I owe it to myself to consider that maybe we are not doing each other any favors by continuing as we have been. I'm just tired of the roller coaster, and tired of feeling like I have to tiptoe around my own feelings for the sake of his. This feels like a very one sided dynamic. At the same time, my husband is a perfect gentleman and thoughtful and kind unless some stress unseats him. But hey, life is a lot of stress.

Anyway, I gave him the card this morning. It was well received. We had a lovely time last night and enjoyed breakfast together. I am going to try to get out a little bit tonight by myself, but we have plans with friends and family all weekend long together, and I think I can find space in those groups with other people.

I just plan on backing off for a while and letting things alone. Nothing made solved. I have a feeling that with a little bit of time he will regain the strength and balance that I enjoyed last week from him. He just doesn't have it now, we're both worn down, and me pushing him for reassurance and answers he doesn't have while he is zapped is a more-of-the-same from a M that wasn't doing well.