I thought everything was okay....(Part 4)

[MCS]

TLEE86,

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Not sure if I said it here, but many times D4 will come downstairs in just a sundress and will put on crocs or something. They just don't have any concept of the weather outside. The thing in this sitch is that as a parent, we would correct that before we would leave the house. Its just a simple "D4, its too cold out to wear that dress, can you go get something else on"

So, W not correcting it is where this is just weird and not like her at all. I think that she is not 'parenting' from the aspect of providing guidance (and discipline) to the kids. I have no idea why its this way as its different than how she was before. Not that its wrong, but it leaves me wondering why? I think it could be a number of things: distractions of OM, depression, over-compensating for feeling she's put the kids in this sitch, not caring anymore, counter-acting how 'we' parented, etc.

Its one of those things that I would just ask her about when we were together if there was anything, but I see that things like this were used during BD about how I 'disapproved' of how she did things.

_________

As far as intimacy and emotion, I have no clue on how to show this to W. Its part of what I was going back and forth a couple days ago. Do I pursue to the point of showing some of these 'acts of kindness?' That's where I had the thought of maybe inviting her to lunch. Although the more I think about it, its too early in this different phase of communication to do it. I'm starting to see that more of the NC is starting to creep back in. Not sure why, but since I don't have a lot of trust in her right now; I think it may be that she's doing what the MC says to do at the sessions, but not sincerely doing it because I don't see the follow-through afterwards. It's just like a dang High School relationship. It's all mind-reading and she'll need to make a couple more moves until I feel comfortable with this recent change.

So I'm not sure how to show it, but I see that intimacy is the one area that from a completely objective point of view that I was lacking in our M mainly because I became comfortable. Life caught up with us and the intimacy went away. Interestingly enough our Anniversary last year, W wanted to 'mess around' in the car in a parking lot or something after our dinner. We hadn't done that type of stuff since before we were married, I said I wasn't comfortable (like you, citations are not taken too fondly in our jobs) and she was upset about it. It was just weird, but I look back and I think that was her trying to 'mix' it up in our marriage. OM R had just gotten started and I think she was trying to get that same feeling from me that she was getting from him. I actually found out during my work to see if it was an A after BD that she did get cited for messing around with OM in a park at night.

So, I can see that she was looking for more intimacy. The other areas I listed, while are things that I need to change would not affect a healthy relationship; those attributes were all small in nature and are really refinements to my personality; not substantial changes.

[Vanilla]

MCS

Intimacy can be about many things not just R. It is talking intently about any subject that is interesting to both of you or just to W. It could be about cabbages, if you ran an allotment. The health of a friend, the purchase of a car, going to the gym, your children and W's new shoes. Being like a friend, making I statements and liking and enjoying. Laughing and kindness.

Above all kindness at the day's issues and please do not solve my problems. OK, my boss is on my back, the children are playing up and I stubbed my toe, so I am feeling low, just say that sounds awful and listen. put away the told yo so and here is how to fix it.

It is about your eye contact, involvement and interest. Listening like a lover, validating and empathising. Asking open questions. Showing real interest.

As for emotion, as long as you can identify it then you can say it. I feel happy today because..... Our D danced like a little fairy in the school show. I am sad because my friend is ill.

Gently, slowly and with kindness.

V

[MCS]

V,

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I look back at that and there's a lot to learn and it involves both of us. As you say it there, I'm very much that way with most people and friends. I actually felt that way from me sharing things with her. The issue was that she wasn't sharing things with me and I didn't pick up on it. The slow fade into her A also caused her to shutdown over the last year. We did share stuff about us (stresses, joys, etc.) but the deeper stuff all dried up on her side as my wife is a really good person and the struggle with OM and M I'm sure was wearing on her. Then the intimacy moved to him, because he was the only one that actually knew about the A itself. This lack of intimacy was not just with me, but all of her friends and family. It must have been a lonely year for her.


_________________________


Also, I was talking to someone today and realized I could summarize one of the main reasons I'm still in this and haven't 'moved on' even though she says she wants me to (this is independent of the other family, religious, still loving her, etc.)

I fear that my W is doing this based on what she has done over the last year in the marriage rather than doing this based on what she wants to become as a individual. Essentially, I fear that she feels she can't turn back and salvage our marriage.

I know I shouldn't be thinking for her, but its really how I feel and things that I think I see coming from her. She's a really fantastic and morally aligned person and she sets very high standards for herself and has always struggled to live up to them within herself (she projected this uncertainty onto me during BD.)

Additionally, it never was too bad but in the past, when she was disappointed in herself she has told me that she needs to do things to 'feel' the pain of her actions, that she feels numb if not. This was a long time ago we had that conversation and the timeframe was from before we met. Over the years, I thought that these tendencies had went away. However, she did tell me she feels similar now to how she felt in that time in her life.

IDK, too much mind-reading, but I just needed to get it out so I'm not thinking about it for the next day or so.

[Mozza]

Essentially, I fear that she feels she can't turn back and salvage our marriage.

This is a fear that is very common on these boards. LBS think that their WAS is too stubborn, too proud, too hurt, too insecure to give another chance to the M. I don't know what to make of it exactly because I also fear it, but I think it's a fear that's overplayed. Our WAS have all made a radical decision that overturned strongly held beliefs and very public commitments. How embarrassing to turn away from your wedding vows and your kid. Yet, they've done it. I doubt that coming back would be a greater shame or effort. If that's where their heart is, they'll do it.

[Vanilla]

Mza

Very true x2

V

[MCS]

Mozza, V,

Yeah, I guess you're right. I'm sure 'impossible to go back' plays into it, but the decision that they did make overshadows the other side. I guess that's where the keep the road home smooth comes in.

For my sitch, I think it was a combination of things that made her leave, but I look at it and I think I was near the bottom for the least of the reasons. Basically, I think she fell in L with OM, felt guilty about it around me, made the next step in the A and thought she could get out of our M and create a serious relationship with him, and no one would ever know what happened during our Marriage. Oh well, Its all in the past now anyway.

So in more DB fashion, I figured I'd go back and add some to the things I'm working on myself. It's actually quite simple...

Stop being a 'fixer' for sitchs outside my control: I need to fight the urge to offer solutions and do a better job listening and validating. I've had it engrained in me that if there's a problem that I should try and fix it. This works for most everything but people. So in essence STFU

Figure out how to be less judgmental with other people's decisions: Here's another on that I try to logically rationalize people's decisions and do a SWOT analysis on other's like I tend to do on my decisions. Geeky, yes....Non-emotional, yes.....good for my sitch, no. So for this it boils down to when in doubt STFU

Work on my anger w W putting our family in this sitch: This one is getting better by detaching. I still think I'm in a bunch of denial into what she actually has done to our marriage and deceived me for well over a year, plus other times in our marriage. I've never been an angry person, but I think the kids are holding me in check, in that, I know that being outwardly angry does nothing to help the sitch. Basically, STFU


Be more empathetic to other's decisions: This one is getting better also. As much as I hate to admit it, I can see where my wife got mixed up in this whole thing. As small as the issues seemed prior to this all starting about 2 years ago, I saw that she was having a rough time. I couldn't understand and tried to help her as much as I could (change work hours, do more around the house, etc.) However, I see that this was the time that she first started to shut down. When she would say something (she said this a total of 3 times in 1 year) like "MCS, our lives are so difficult" I would respond on why they weren't I should have just validated. Again STFU

More intimacy and emotion in relationships (I got complacent in our M): This is the main area that I see that I 'knowingly' contributed to our troubles. I was in a time in my life, that while content, was still trying to balance kids, house, work, etc. the last area there was our M. We did talk about this a few times and we seemed to resolve it (went to Hawaii for our 10 year Anniversary,) I didn't put enough effort in this on a daily basis. Little things like flowers, gifts, back-rubs, etc. basically went away.

Anyway, as I see most of these are tweaks to my personality. In the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm pretty comfortable with who I was/who I am and also had a high self-esteem before BD and after. However, I see as a H; I should have realized that W was not comfortable and her self-esteem was diminishing and I should have been there to help her get through it. The little that she expressed to me; I trivialized in my mind since it seemed to me like everything was going okay in our lives. Since these were far and few between, I attributed them to 'bad day' moods from her and not necessarily a fundamental issue that she was dealing with.

[Vanilla]

MCS

WAS rarely fall in love with OP, they fall in fatuation with them. They trade to a dream that can never be reality. A dream from which they must awake.

The greatest gift you can give is that of yourself, the care, the attention and the listening. The connection. These are the little things that matter, you can still give these things on a daily basis to your children.

V

[MCS]

So journaling...

I had a huge setback in my PMA last night. I talked to my mom and felt better, but it was just to the point that I don't know what direction to take all of this. I'm trying to follow whatever this plan may be, but I'm getting to the point that I don't even see the next step in front of me. I'm just looking for some guidance as I see that I'm detaching to the point that I'm uncomfortable that this can work out. I'm happy with myself, I'm being a good dad for my kids, my productivity at work is back. I'm actually comfortable with myself save my M. That's where my issue is, is this the precipice of 'moving on?' IDK, but I see my fellow DBers that have joined around the same time are seeing things this way also.

So better today, but feel even further detached. Went to MC (mediation) and I see that W is trying to push it back into her comfort zone of really talking about nothing. As you know, we had productive sessions the last two times, but there has been little to no follow-through on her part to show any actions that our communication is getting better.

So, I went into it very different than before because of detachment. For the first time, I didn't need to try and act detached, I already was.

This led to a really weird session. First, W looks like she's struggling. She's always been really put together, but you can see this is wearing on her. She just didn't look attractive at all, wow that's tough that just came out of my head. Anyway, its almost like when you see someone you don't know and can just see they're struggling by their face. Anyway, to summarize the long post. I don't see any progress in WAW in facing some of the decisions she's made. While she's calmer and more reasonable, I see that she's still in denial that the A had any part of the separation. I could tell it became uncomfortable for her when she couldn't get me emotionally charged about the sitch. I see that she has totally withdrawn from dealing with any of this in front of me (or herself.) It's really sad, but I can't change it. However, MCS is no longer going to shoulder her burden of her decisions when she tries to project her issues back on me. The emotional stability that I have that she has used over the years is gone in me now. I understand my role in what has happened and I no longer will accept her 'baiting' to take responsibility for her decisions while together

I saw that I was starting to talk about things that I struggled with before emotionally, but now I was stating them just as something we need to address. We talked about the kids and she asked if there were any issues, I said not really other than what they've been dealing with. She looked at me confused and asked "what do you mean?" I said, "our sitch. It's been 6 months and they are still trying to figure this out." I asked if she had any suggestions on what we should tell them. At that point, her whole demeanor changed, no eye contact, head down, etc. She said she didn't know what to say other than we are living apart. I asked her if they have asked why we can't be a family again? She then withdrew even more and didn't answer. She looked up and said, I guess we just tell them that Mom left. I said they know that and but ask me why we can't work it out? She kept looking away and said 'I don't know' I probably went a little too far and said. I don't know either, but I don't want to tell them that Dad still wants to work on it. I just don't know what to say. I think I see that she's finally starting to realize the affect on the kids.

So, then we talked about our communication. MC said that we've been doing much better and asked if we agree. W would not answer the question. He asked again and she said something like how she doesn't feel 'safe' with me. At that point, I went to say something and paused. She looked and asked what I was going to say. I paused a little longer and then said.

"W this is up to you to do if you'd like and I know its not right time now, but at some point if you're comfortable could you tell me what I did to make you feel that way" Well, then her demeanor collapsed even more. She wouldn't look at me or MC and he asked what was wrong. She said that she has felt she told me why and doesn't want to again. Then a little ray of light she said "However, I know that's how you feel and you're allowed to feel that way."I said "Okay, that's fair enough, but I want to grow out of this as I move on and don't want to make the same mistakes again."

[MCS]

TLEE, This one's for you. As I left MC today, I was in my car and had the radio on to the Christian rock channel and then called my mom and started talking over bluetooth so the radio cut out. Talked for about 15 minutes and was talking about W and our sitch and hit a dead-zone so the phone cut off. Truck kicked back to the radio and the radio was playing Broken Together. AAHHHH, probably the first time I've ever heard it on that station. The folks upstairs sure have some humor........

[MCS]

So, I left a few things out above.

First, I think I've picked up on the game she's playing and I talked to the MC about it. Talking with him, I think he sees it too. Basically, I see that she knows exactly how to get me emotionally charged. When she wants to, she says something to me about how this is my fault, kids are fine, whatever and that's my 'trigger.' Then I seem visibly upset/angry and she says that's why she doesn't feel comfortable with me. It's never been anything even bad in a normal marriage, but I would take it like I crossed the line and started blaming myself.

So MC and I talked about it and he kind of agreed that the sessions were unstructured in our objectives long term. I said that I wanted to address that.

Also, I see that I talk about things matter of fact and confident. I'm not showing any vulnerability to her yo-yoing my emotions as like I said I see that pattern she is using. I had a friendly attitude and even when the discussions got difficult, my appearance didn't change at all. She was sitting closed shoulders and stiff even when talking and I was relaxed and kept eye contact. I actually caught myself whistling as I walked in the room.

So, I guess I've let go enough that I see the changes in W that need to happen and I can't influence them. So now's the time to take care of MCS, S5 and D4 and address 'our' needs independent of W being in our family.