Continuing DBing...

[Starsky309]

There was another wise poster here named Pearlharbr, who still pops in from time to time (especially if I shine my big "Puppy Light" up in the sky, lol), and if you can dig up her old threads they are GOLD. Although she wasn't (yet) married, she had a long-time boyfriend who was wayward, and Pearl did as masterful a job as anyone I've ever seen on here of executing the whole "THIS will be the type of man I have in my life going forward; whether or not YOU can be that man is completely up to you -- please let me know" thing.

Here's a letter she wrote him that is pitch-perfect:



Pearlharbr's letter to her exBF:

xBF,

During these past five months I have looked long and hard at myself and what I want for my life from this point forward. Here are some of the conclusions I have reached:

I want to be with someone who wants to continually strive to be a better person and have a better relationship. I want a man who can and does communicate with me. I want someone who is honest with me and himself.

I deserve to be with someone who will come to me and not turn to another woman when the going gets tough. I want someone who doesn't make excuses about inappropriate contact because there is no such contact at all. Ever.

I need someone who doesn't just say he is willing to do whatever it takes to earn my trust but who makes a plan and follows through with actions that will reassure me. I want a man who goes out of his way to make me feel safe. I want and deserve to be with someone who is willing to crawl through broken glass for me.

I realized that I want and need to be wooed. I want romance, I want fun, I want a man who is thoughtful. I want to feel like the man I am with wants me for me, not just as part of a comfortable life. I want to be with someone who recognizes all I have to offer and who wants to show me why he is the best man for me.

I need to be honest here--I am not sure that is who you are, or the type of man you are. I realized that I didn't feel those things from you or get those things with you before. I will not settle for anything less this time. If "we" can't have that in our relationship, then I am not interested in seeing where this goes because I know I will not be happy. When I love a man I am willing to give him my all, but I am not going to do it with ANY man who can't seem to give those things back. I now know that there are men out there who want to do those things for their women. I just am not sure that is who you are. I don't feel right now that I am willing to give much to you because of those reasons. This is nothing against you for being who you are and I know that you have things you need too, but I just wanted to be honest and not give any false hope here.

What do you think?

Pearl

[PeterV2]

Starsky - wow! Good advice. I'll need a full hazmat suit over my spew jacket.

I'm going to see my MC today at 6:30. I'll offer the slot to W again, or offer to go together, but if not I'll go myself.

[Starsky309]

. . . The reason I asked you that is because, as I've been posting to others recently, I do think it's very important to a betrayed spouse's own self-esteem for them to get their wayward spouse to at least deal with them from a basic position of honesty. The daily deceit can just EAT YOU UP inside, and it's no way to teach children, for example, how healthy families (even divorced, but successfully-co-parented ones) function. I think it's emotionally healthiest for you to get to a position where it's basically "Look, YOU know what you're doing, I know what you're doing, and YOU know that I know, and you also need to know that I'm CATEGORICALLY NOT OKAY WITH IT. I love you, and don't want to divorce, but you are an adult, and I can't control you. All I can tell you is the circumstances under which I'm willing to be married, and I cannot live in an open marriage, make no mistake."

Then, what they do with all that is up to them.

Puppy

[Starsky309]

My main concern with your approach is that I don't believe that most people can "hold out" for more than 6-12 months, and many can't hold out for more than 3-6. I am especially concerned about men, because it can be especially emasculating and humiliating for us, and many of them never recover fully.

For the record, my fast-track approach isn't "end it or else." That is an ultimatum, and it's controlling. I advocate that the betrayed spouse make it about THEM, and THEIR PERSONAL BOUNDARIES:

"I cannot live in an open marriage," (similar to Michelle's teachings about "I can no longer live in a sexless marriage") My approach with my wife was one of "I cannot control what you do; you are a grown adult woman, and you are free to make your own choices. All I can tell you is what I am willing to endure in my marriage, and this is a personal boundary with me. I love you, and I don't want a divorce, and I hope you'll end it very soon and come back and work on our marraige with me, at which point I think you will find me ready and willing to work on ANY AND ALL ISSUES. But please hurry, because my patience is not without its limits."

I do believe that DB teaches that a wayward spouse WILL be attracted back toward the marriage, when the betrayed spouse GALs and does some of the other techniques that MWD teaches. But MWD isn't anti-boundary, and she isn't pro-doormat or pro-cake-eating. And when a wayward spouse continues to get some of their emotional and physical needs met by their OM/OW, and some of their other physical, emotional and financial needs met by their spouse, with no boundaries and no consequences and no deadlines . . .

. . . then they have little, if any, reason to make a choice, in my experience.

Finally, I think there is an "added benefit" to this more aggressive approach, especially for men, in that it makes the betrayed husband more attractive to his wife. I believe that many of these women are WAITING for their husbands to fight for them, and for their marriages, and they lose respect for them every day that they don't (even as the wife pushes him away with her infidelity). Some formerly-wayward women have even come and posted as much on these very forums

Puppy

[PeterV2]

So W has stated boundaries that she needs to be involved in decisions about her business. I overstep those boundaries by hiring someone to replace me on the night shifts.

But I have boundaries that I won't be denied being in my own home and she overstepped that one.

I guess I could have waited until she got back from vacation and then discussed it, saying I have a solution to the night shifts and I want to move back home. She was most upset that I made the arrangements when she was away. Or maybe she's just saying that and really doesn't want me staking claim to the marital home.

[Starsky309]

And finally there's this, from a wise old poster named RobX. His approach is very different than mine, but IT WORKS, and I've highlighted the part about "controlling" here in case you just want to pull that part from it:


RobX’s approach:



Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes.

You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent.

You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent.

You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust.

For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point?

Don't ask for for full disclosure.

Do the opposite.

Tell her this:

"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.

I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.

From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.

If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.

If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.

I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."


No being mean, spiteful, vindictive, you let her go.
No more discussions, arguments, no more talks about lies, no more sneaking around behind your back, she can do what she wants but you are letting her go to do what she wants to do but at the same time, you are now allowing yourself to be free of this crappy limbo place you've been living in for so long.

Bro, if she wants to be with you, she'll be with you, no amount of a$$ kissing, sneaking, snooping, being mean, angry, standing tall, etc. is going to change that.

You be the best gosh darn example of a MAN for you and for you only. If she wants this great MAN that you are in her life, she'll pursue you and do what it takes to be a part of that.

You need to respect yourself first, that's the first step and letting go of your wife her untrustworthy ways to establish that your self-respect, dignity and integrity are the most important things in your life is what you NEED and WANT to do. You know what you're worth, go out and get what you're worth and let go of the things that are worthy of you - starting feeling your personal value, know it, resonate with it, live it. You are worth better than what she is giving you right now, if you don't set that boundary, you'll allow her to do this to you forever and who could respect that?

Otherwise continue playing this game and you'll be playing this chase & pursue game, pushing & pulling for the rest of your life.

Time to get off the merry go round, this ride isn't that fun anymore.

[Starsky309]

So W has stated boundaries that she needs to be involved in decisions about her business. I overstep those boundaries by hiring someone to replace me on the night shifts.

But I have boundaries that I won't be denied being in my own home and she overstepped that one.

I guess I could have waited until she got back from vacation and then discussed it, saying I have a solution to the night shifts and I want to move back home. She was most upset that I made the arrangements when she was away. Or maybe she's just saying that and really doesn't want me staking claim to the marital home.

It's most likely a "moving target" thing (where, if you fulfill her request, she'll only replace it with another request), but you should apologize and own it. "You're right, I should have consulted you on that. I will going forward."

[Starsky309]

One more, from a beautiful (inside and out!) poster named Greek, who sadly lost her beloved Coach to a heart attack a little over a year ago:


What Greek says Coach did to win her back:

I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.

It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.

Greek

[PeterV2]

It's most likely a "moving target" thing (where, if you fulfill her request, she'll only replace it with another request), but you should apologize and own it. "You're right, I should have consulted you on that. I will going forward."

Well this was one of the deal breakers for her a year and a half ago, that we would discuss something and make a decision and then when the time came I would change it. But the only incidents that I can recall of doing that involved details about a renovation where I changed the specs, one was a change based on not following the approved drawings and the other was that I didn't really listen to her opinion on a safety issue, but I corrected both. But at the time I was making these decisions she was already having an EA and even possibly a PA with OM, so I think it was overblown to justify her actions and now she harps on those issues saying I did it all the time.
I don't really want to go there and argue that it was only two times and ask her for other examples which I could probably explain away, but that's like pi$$ing in the wind. I won't get covered in pi$$ if I do a 180 and just turn away.
But she's using those past incidents to fuel her anger that my unilateral decision to hire staff to replace me at the RH just shows her that I haven't changed and I don't respect her.

[Starsky309]

You're probably right. But you still need to own it.