This can't be the end! #2

[Barry]

Hello Toots, RD, Lisa, and Mozza.

Thank you all for your continued kind words of support and encouragement.

Toots.
Today has been a slightly more "up" day for me. I've decided to try to post only on those days as the down days for me are awful (as I'm sure they are for everyone), but looking back through my threads, I communicate less effectively when I'm upset. I'm also using this knowledge to pick the times when I have contact with my W as best I can. As we all know, the ups and downs come frequently, I'm sure particularly during the first few months.

Our sitches don't determine our lives going forwards, we do that for ourselves.

I try to remind myself of this every morning when I'm at my lowest.

RD
As I've said to you before, I find certain similarities in our sitches. The main one being the length of time we have been M and T with our W's. I also feel your pain. It's a very long time to have invested in something for it to be thrown on the fire by your partner.

This woman was my best friend for /25 years and I trusted her with my life. I long for her to come home and join the family but that's not on the cards at the moment

Although that it's me that moved out for financial and logistical reasons mainly, and it's my W that is in the marital home with my children, I too wish she would emotionally rejoin our family, but like your sitch, that doesn't look likely right now. As I say, I don't have an OM in the picture (yet) so I do feel for you that there is one in yours. I really do hope things improve for you at some point.
I do try to look at the positives in my life, but aside from my 4 lovely children (which is positive enough I must say), who love me very much, the rest are limited as they tie in some way to my M. I'm working on creating new positives that aren't though!

Lisa
I do understand your (and everyone's) feedback and comments regarding the sadness bit. In regard to not taking stock in WAS's absolutes etc, it was good of you to give examples in your sitch (which I'm not up to date with yet) where this is the case. My W's current outlook does seem fairly bleak, but I do appreciate that she, like everyone, does not know the future.

That being said, If she says something specific about the relationship that she didn't like, take it and put it in your pocket to work on. That's a 180 for you

Regarding this, I tried to ask her (at BD) where it is in our relationship that she feels that I/we have failed. All she has and will say is that we are "not good for each other any more" I understand what she is saying there as we certainly had a rough 2014, but I personally don't feel it's anything insurmountable.

I do have a question relating to this: Should I ask her to make a list (however brutal) of these things? I was thinking of asking her to, and saying that it was not something that I could agree to change everything on (to win her back), more from a viewpoint that I need to know for any future relationship I have, be that with her (hopefully) or another. Thoughts on this anyone?

Mozza
I'm sorry to hear that you've had a tough day today. I know you are much better placed to heed your own advice rather than me give you any, but as you rightly say, the next up day is just around the corner so hang in there.
I, like you, can see me being upset every say for many months to come, even if no physical tears are shed. I'm glad that you continue to follow and post on my sitch.

On a lighter note, my very kind boss gave me half a day off for free today. He knows my sitch and it was his way of telling me "well done" for getting through the days without letting all this interfere with my work. I work in a fairly stressful role so he did give me a figurative pat on the back today. He's a good guy.
Anyway, I got home and as it was a nice sunny afternoon, went on a 10 mile run in the local countryside. It did me good to be out in the fresh air (I usually train in the gym) and I felt much better on getting home.
I'm looking forward to tomorrow's meet with my D15 and boyfriend, and my clothes shopping. The shopping is (as silly as it sounds) a bit of a 180 for me as I could never tolerate browsing many shops for anything. My usual opinion would be "get in, buy, get out" as is the case for many men I presume. I intend to take a bit more time and get some well fitting items to help my PMA.

Sorry for the long post, and take care everyone.

Barry.

[Mozza]

Sorry for the long post

Do you know why you say that? Do you think we will be offended or bothered?

I suspect that your reaction will be "Oh, I shouldn't say that anymore", but the goal of my intervention is not to "teach" you how to write on these boards, which seems to be how you've taken some of the advice you've received (it does not surprise me). It's about making you think about your personality traits and ultimately how it got you where you are today. Most likely, it feels so natural to you that you're not aware of it. It has worked with you so far and it has become your nature.

Here's a little joke that I heard from David Foster Wallace:

"There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?""

See what I mean about your communication? They are a reflection of how you think, of how you wish to interact with others, how you want others to react to you. It tells me that you try to appear as a very nice guy, one who doesn't want to be a bother, who's polite and a quick study. You probably read this sentence and think: "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" I wish you'd get started on NMMNG right away.

Sorry, I forgot (following too many people): are you seeing a therapist?

[LisaB]

Hey Barry,

In my opinion NO do not ask her for a list. In my opinion at this time you need to back off, don't ask her anything, don't talk about the relationship or anything like that. That is a big huge DB no-no.

Eventually you may be able to have that talk and figure out how things went wrong but at this point you need to look inside yourself and figure out how Barry wants to improve Barry. What are some things you would like to change about yourself to make yourself smarter, stronger, better, funner?
(nice english huh?)

Hope your day is going well!

[Barry]

Hi Mozza, there's quite a lot in your post to respond to..

Sorry for the long post

Do you know why you say that? Do you think we will be offended or bothered?

No - I'm just appreciative of people's time taken to read and keep up with my posts, particularly when I think they're long.

I suspect that your reaction will be "Oh, I shouldn't say that anymore"

No, I will continue to put that if I feel it appropriate.

The goal of my intervention is not to "teach" you how to write on these boards, which seems to be how you've taken some of the advice you've received (it does not surprise me)

I know it's not. I'm just trying to get my point across better in my posts.

It's about making you think about your personality traits and ultimately how it got you where you are today.

I know, and I am thinking about that...a lot.

Most likely, it feels so natural to you that you're not aware of it. It has worked with you so far and it has become your nature.

By definition, doesn't one's nature feel natural?

Here's a little joke that I heard from David Foster Wallace:
"There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?""

That's a very thought provoking story Mozza, one which I need to think more about before I give my reaction on it. What I can say right now is that I'm not in a good enough place to reflect on if the reality I see is actually the true reality. This is not The Matrix.
I, like most people see the world through the lens of self in general terms but I am also very concious of the world at large and the people in it. I do think of other people's reactions to my interactions, and of course I want people to see me in a good light, why would I not??

See what I mean about your communication? They are a reflection of how you think, of how you wish to interact with others, how you want others to react to you. It tells me that you try to appear as a very nice guy, one who doesn't want to be a bother, who's polite and a quick study. You probably read this sentence and think: "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" I wish you'd get started on NMMNG right away.

You're 100% correct, I DON'T see what's wrong with that. I AM a nice guy, I AM polite, I AM thoughtful of others feelings etc. I can't really comment at this stage (without reading NMMNG) as to how or why I would want to change that in any way. My W doesn't want to end our M because I'm a nice guy?

Sorry, I forgot (following too many people): are you seeing a therapist?

Not yet, I start seeing an IC very soon. I'm just waiting for confirmation of the first appointment.

Barry.

[Barry]

Thanks for responding Lisa,

In my opinion NO do not ask her for a list. In my opinion at this time you need to back off, don't ask her anything, don't talk about the relationship or anything like that. That is a big huge DB no-no.

I kind of knew that was the case as it means focusing on the past rather than the present or future to try and solve my/our problems in the M. I've obviously thought about this A LOT myself, and I've actually filled an A4 notebook with thoughts. These include my perception on my part in the M breakdown, and I have included my thoughts on what I thought my W's part in my feeling that way was too. It's interesting reading and I'm sure a therapist would have a field day with it.
There are lots of areas where there is scope for 180's for sure.

Eventually you may be able to have that talk and figure out how things went wrong but at this point you need to look inside yourself and figure out how Barry wants to improve Barry. What are some things you would like to change about yourself to make yourself smarter, stronger, better, funner?
(nice english huh?)

More fun lol! I know I need to work on myself, and yes, I know...for me. Because I'm in such emotional turmoil at the moment, some of the things I plan to do need to put on hold a little, I'm just not in the right place to be able to concentrate on some of it. I'm really trying to focus on my mental state right now as that's my biggest issue. I am on anti-depressants, I'm arranging to see an IC, and am attending an Emotional Wellbeing course at a local college which starts in a couple of weeks. I'm also working on my physical appearance. I'm not hugely overweight but I do need to lose a bit of weight and gain some muscle to get back to where I was when I felt good about myself. It helps with a PMA, and it's also helping me sleep. A longer term goal as part of this is to cycle the length of Britain (1000 miles) either later this year or more likely early 2016. I have been increasing my social circle and GALing as much as I can too.

Hope your day is going well!

I did buy a couple of items of clothing, but it was more to look at styles today as I don't want to spend too much on new clothes when I'm losing weight. My D15 and boyfriend coffee meet didn't happen, she asked me if we could do it another day, which is fine although I was looking forward to it. I'm about to have a fine steak dinner with my parents, and then I'm out to visit my sister and her family this evening. My W is out on the town tonight which although shouldn't be a concern to me, does prey on my mind so I'm off out to take my mind off it.

Spin cycling class at 9am tomorrow morning so won't be a late night for me. Still hoping to meet a friend for dinner tomorrow, and may well finish DB by Monday so most of my GAL activities should be able to be ticked off.
I am missing my two niece's joint birthday party tomorrow (my W's sister's children, who I haven't seen since around October) although I have sent cards and some money for each of them. It's those things that I miss, as well as my own family, wife, and home.

Barry.

[Mozza]

Hello Barry,

Thanks for the detailed response.

The fish story was not about questioning whether you're seeing the true reality, it's not a Matrix kind of question. It's about seeing for the first time what is so familiar to you that it becomes invisible. Another quote, from George Orwell, is: "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."

In passing I note in your answers that when you're appreciative, you say "sorry" and that you think being a "nice guy" is not a reason to be dumped. Let's just table that for now. I don't mean to argue about it and at this point I think it's best that you take some time to finish DR, then go on to No More Mr. Nice Guy and see your new therapist. These are all tools that will help you see better what is water. My IC especially has turned around a lot of things I thought I knew about my M and myself.

PS: Rzrback just reflected on his past life as a nice guy and what that brought him. It could be good food for thought.

[Barry]

I've had such a bad weekend guys. I need to tell you about it, but so much of it goes against every DB rule though.
I'm so disappointed with myself and am in such a bad place right now.

I had some text exchange with W on Saturday morning. We said hi, both asked how the other was (that's a first since BD for her), I said have a good night out with her workmates, and enjoy niece's birthday party on Sunday, she said thanks, and told me to have a good w/e too. All very friendly so I left it there.

I know the workmates, in fact ive known them since they were kids, they're all at least 10 years younger than her. One of them, I had a feeling would post pics on FB and stupidly I looked around 10:30pm. There were some from the friends house and some when out. One of the ones in the house got to me a bit. It was with her friend and it was the way her make-up was done (sparkly eye liner, smoky eyes, all very sexy), she looked amazing. She had a small vest top on (bearing in mind it's about -3 outside at the moment), which shows off her recent tattoos. New jewellery (no w ring), hair dyed and preened. She looked transformed. She also had her tounge seductivly poking out of the side of her mouth, but it was the look in her eyes that worries me the most, a real "come and get me" look. My description doesn't do the photo justice in how different & vibrant W looked.

I was at my sisters at the time, and she saw me looking at that pic, and asked to see it. She could guess what I was thinking about it too. I said to Sis that I was worried about it, as she was going to be out on the town, 3 o clock in the morning, at a club, looking like that, drunk, with people 10 years younger than her, separated, no wedding ring on, not in love with her husband, feeling free and liberated, no sex in 10 weeks, and with that "come get me" look on her face. Yes, I was worried.

I'm not saying for one moment that my W has turned into someone who would sleep with someone on a first date, or that she would do anything other than have a night out, and of course she's going to dress nice, we all do, and her friends were too. She may not even kiss anyone, it's more that with the male attention she will get (trust me, she's a really attractive woman), it opens the door to her meeting an OM, who is NOT her (route of all her problems) husband, feeling flattered of the attention, even if it's an exchange of number, it's a slippery slope.

I know what I should have done is tried not to think about it, but I find that difficult to do, as I said recently, I'm really having a problem in detaching.

I sent W a message saying that I knew was only out with her friends but to be careful, because she looked amazing tonight and would obviously be getting attention. I said to remember that we're married, sent her the photo, and even said that she did have a real "come get me look" on her face, and that I was worried about us. I sent this on something where you can see when the messages are delivered and read. It was all delivered.

I called my S20 to see if he was staying at out house (he sometimes does on a Saturday) and no he wasn't. He asked why and I basically told him all of the above. He said not to worry etc, but I told him I couldn't help it. He said to text my S18 (who lives at home but often stays with friends on a Saturday) to see if he was home. I did, and he was staying out too, he also said that my S13 was staying at a friends too. That just leaves my D15.

Anyway, I was in such a mess with all these thoughts of her doing something stupid, or potentially taking an OM home that I walked round and hid where I would be able to see and hear when she came home. This was at 1am. I know, this makes me sound crazy, and I think I might be, or having a breakdown or something.

As it turned out, my S18 did come home in the end. He text'd me to say he was back (I had my phone on silent as where I was, he would have heard it go off inside the house), and I asked him to let me know if he heard from his Mum. He said he would but why was I asking, so I told him too. I know I shouldn't have said this to either of my sons, but I was in such a state.

Anyway, I stood there for the next 2 hours until she came home, by taxi with the girls. She still hadn't seen my messages, but looked at them as she was staggering up to the front door, really drunk. She didn't reply. She went in and was talking to my S18, and which I could hear every single word of from outside the window.

She asked him if I had been texting him, and that she's had messages off me saying that she was basically "out on the pull" for an OM, and she said that she wasn't or hadn't done anything at all. She started to tell my S that she was so sorry that she was doing this to our family, but my S doesn't want to talk about it with her as it upsets him. He feels like she's always just trying to justify it to him and convince him it's all for the best. None of us think that though.

He text'd me to say she was home, and that she hadn't done anything and to go to sleep and not worry. I said thanks and then text'd my W to tell her I didn't mean that she would have done anything, it was just that I was worried about her meeting someone. I could hear her reading my messages aloud as I'm stood not 3 feet away on the other side of the window!! She said she was home fine and that she wasn't trying to be horrible to me. I said I knew that, and that I didn't think she was horrible and that I love and miss her.

She was talking to my S18 for a while, very very drunk, and saying how horrible she was to be doing all this etc. She had planned on net getting too drunk as she had to drive some distance on Sunday to niece's birthday party. She was running through all the drinks that she'd had to my S18, it was a lot, and she was saying that her "friends" had been encouraging her.

She was asking my S18 to try to help her sober up, so he was making her drink lots of water, then at 03.45am, she asked him to go and get her a burger and chips. Being a doting son, he agreed to go for her bless him. As soon as he went out the door, she was on the phone to the friends she's been out with, running me down into the ground about the messages I'd sent her (there was no sound of the person she'd just been when talking to my S18). I could hear part of the other persons half of the call too as she had them on speakerphone but the tv was quite loud so I couldn't catch it all. The tone of voice said enough for me though, they were all running me down about these messages.

Anyway, my S18 gets home with the food, and I wait to listen if anything else is said. It wasn't and she soon after went to bed. I waited until she was in bed before going home at 05.00am. I was distraught that I'd allowed myself to work myself into such a state that I was standing around in sub-zero temperatures, stalking my W, and messaging her in the middle of the night with things like I miss you, I love you, everything I shouldn't be doing....all based on one picture of her on FB. What a mess.

So anyway, Sunday morning, I didn't really know what to do as I knew that she was going to be hung-over, and had to drive a long way on the motorway. I messaged her again, saying sorry about the texts last night, I shouldn't have done that and that I was just so worried about the whole situation. I said to make sure that she was safe to drive, even if that meant leaving a lot later.

My Mum came into my room with a drink for me, and I totally broke down to her, and told her all of the above. She's so worried about me, because she can see the torment and anguish that I'm going through. She asked me if I wanted her to try and speak with my W (without saying that I knew she was), but I said not to. I tried to sleep again as I hadn't had much.

Regarding the sleeping, I've really had problems with it lately, and even when I do manage to sleep, in my dreams we're still together and then I wake up in my tiny room, in a single bed, and it all comes crashing down on me again and again that my life is in tatters. Mornings are a bad time for me.

After a while, I decided to go out on a run. I started out on my usual route which takes me out into the countryside, but which also goes past the bottom of our street (not past my house). I could see that W's car was gone but my S18's was there. I text'd him and he was on his own so I went round to see him. I apologised for texting him so much the night before (obviously didn't mention that I'd been 3 feet away at the time), and said that it was out of worry for the situation. He said it was fine. Even though I know I'm putting him in a position by the asking the next things, I couldn't help myself.
I asked him not to say that I'd been round to my W, which he said he wouldn't (and I do trust him not to), and I said that if I went to look in the bedroom, would he not think ill of me. He said he wouldn't and that he understood why I was being like this, he could see the worry in my eyes. I looked around and there was nothing out of the "ordinary". Whe I went downstairs, my S18 asked me if I wanted to check the Internet history etc on our home PC to see what she'd been looking at. He's worried about it all too. Anyway, I checked it right back to the day I left, and there was no dating sites, lawyers, nothing to say that she was looking to sell the house etc. There were a few things which she'd been looking at to do with marital problems, but all were geared towards the husband treating the wife badly. I read the sites, and I can honestly say that I didn't do most of the things that were on them - hopefully she realised this when she read it too!

The only thing that really concerned me was visits to websites regarding cosmetic surgery.
I have to say right from the outset that my W is extremly beautiful and I wouldn't change anything about here. Having had 4 children though, my W has quite a lot of stretch marks on her stomach, and a "pouch". It's never bothered me in the slightest but it has her (I can understand this to be fair). We used to play the lottery, and that was one of the things that she always said she would do first should we come into big money. She also has very nice breasts but again she has never been happy with the shape so has said about a "boob job". The talk of that increased when her best friend had one done and (hers were very small before) and it really boosted her friends confidence. They do look good too I have to say, but I much prefer natural to fake. She's recently being going on about having Botox injections too, which she doesn't need at all. She's obviously feeling her age (which at almnost 38, is not old at all!!), and she was very concerned about her hair being dyed every other week, and losing weight etc. You get the picture.
Please tell me it's not just me thinking that all of this, coupled with the new car and recent multiple tattoos, smacks of a MLC??? The problem is, she's feeling great about herself and this new life she's wanting to start...it's not a "crisis" to her.

Anyway, there was a few visits to the websites regarding surgery over the past few weeks, so I started to think then that maybe this is what she's thinking now. Get rid of me, sell our home and she'll have a tidy sum of money to be able to do all of it, with enough left over to start a nice little life off for herself. I'm sure that the lure of that in her current thinking is almost irresistable and it far outweighs any kind of reconciliation with me. Maybe she was just curious about it, but it all seems a bit too coincidental to me.

I thanked my S18 for his understanding and said I would see him today (we are meeting up for dinner this evening). I went "home".
I noticed that my W hadn't read my messages from that morning, so I text'd her asking her to please look at my other messages. She just said "what about them, i've read them". I asked her to call me later (yesterday evening), and she just replied "no".

It got to around 7.30pm, and I was in such a state that I went round to see her and broke down in front of her (again). She did hug me just to console me, I was really in a bad way. I asked her to talk to me about how she is feeling and if anything has changed in regards to R. I explained my worries over the photo and the circumstances she was going to be in whilst out and she understood what I was saying, although she wasn't going to explain herself to me or anyone.

I did manage to calm down a little and tried to tell her that I understand how we got here, I really do. As I was reading DB, one of the biggest things that struck me was the part about the "usual" issue in a breakdown of a M was the man feeling that he wanted more independance, and the woman wanting more intimacy. In our marriage, these roles have been reversed for some time. I read back the section in DB about it and swapped the "He's and She's" around and that passage was about us. It's not that I'm feminine by nature but I do wear my heart on my sleeve, I always have, and I don't mind talking about my emotions especially with my W. What had happened over a long period is that I'd turned into the nagging wife!!

Although we both work hard, I was coming home and not seeing her much, doing the cooking, cleaning etc. When she would get home, I would complain that "we never do anything or spend enough time together"...nagging wife if ever I've heard one! The thing is all of this, and me resenting her friendship with her best friend (the third wheel in our M), made me miserable. Once she started getting all these feelings of independance and confidence from working, coupled with the onset of a MLC (which I'm sure she is having), it made it worse and worse.

I told her that I am trying to get help with my mental health (she knows already) and I'm trying to be more sociable with friends etc, and it is for my own benefit but I can't cope with the thoughts that me and her aren't going to make it. I actually said a few things like that, I can't cope, I can't take it etc. She said to me that I had to stop talking this way (suicidal). I told her that I wasn't at "home" knotting a noose but that I was at complete rock bottom and I had had those thoughts many times recently. This is completly true, I have. It's not that I'm going to (I couldn't do that to my kids or family anyway), but to know that you're even thinking about that sort of thing is very very upsetting.

I told her that I wish I could hate her, and just say f*** you to the whole situation, but that I can't. I don't want to see my life, our childrens lives, her life even, torn to pieces and thrown on the fire. I don't deserve it and neither do our kids.
I just asked her to please try and think about the things that I've said in our last couple of meet-ups and everything I'd said yesterday evening, and to let us try one more time. I told her that if it didn't work, I would let her go, and I meant it.

She said she would think about what I'd said, we talked about some other small matters and that was that. She hugged me when I left and said that she does care for me and cares what happens to me (I should hope so after 22 years together). I can see that she's worried about me, in fact, I can see that everyone around me is. I look terrible, and I feel worse.

I just wanted you all to know that I've probably blown everything now, all because I looked at a photo and went batsh*t crazy.
I've broken pretty much every rule in DB'ing. I'm not sure if the meds I have are either not working or if all this is just too big for them to fix. I'm at the doctors on Friday and I tried unsuccesfully to get a sooner appointment today.

I feel so broken guys.

Barry.

[Tarheel]

Barry, the lesson you need to learn from all of that is to stay in your own sandbox. You can only control you. Trust me- I've been in your shoes. Early on, I recall sitting in my car in a parking lot outside of OM's neighborhood to see if W would go there. I even cruised by his house several times to see if W's car was there. It's only lately that I really started to realize (and accept) that we only control ourselves. You have to leave W to make her own decisions (good and bad).

[Mozza]

Oh Barry... A lot of us men on these boards can relate to you. I cringed as I read your entire story because I've been there too. Since you've read my sitch, you probably know about the Halloween episode where my WAW was out on the town dressed in some S&M cop costume getting drunk on jello shots surrounded by men in their 20s. The difference is that the craziest thing I've ever done was to try in vain a few passwords to get into her iPad...

You're so early in your stich. It won't be this painful all the time. It will remain painful, but it will not be that bad. I'm concerned however that you will become one of these LBS that mess up in real life and then come here to confess, as if it cancelled anything.

Yes, you've done a lot of awful things this week-end and you really need to get a hold of yourself, for your own good. You're not saving your M, you're not heading towards R this way. If I told you: your M will be saved if you stand on your head for 5 hours while holding a snake in your mouth -- would you do it? I bet you would. So now, I'm telling you: if you want a shot at your M, you need to follow the DB principles.

What are the lessons of the weekend for you? What will you do differently now?

We're there with you.

[Georgiabelle]

Barry,

Your post was literally heart breaking. I am so very sorry you find yourself here. You have received some very wise advice and I will be brief.

Please, for your own sanity, stop. You cannot stop W from doing anything. Let her make her own decisions-good and bad. Focus on yourself as the only thing you control is you. Please don't allow yourself to obsess over what she is doing. Why? Because you cannot control it.

Hang in there. It does get better:) Be kind to yourself.