Hello Lisa. Thank you for your advice. I do believe you are right about calling her on her inconsistency and inconsideration.
Even so, I think you are also right about being very very loving to her while I do so.
I sent her a text just now apologizing for my reaction to her travel and wishing her well on her trip.
When she offers to do something, I just expect it may not get done. No surprises when it doesn't. No surprises when she's inconsiderate. Doesn't matter.
She right though... if I don't trust her, it's my problem. I can't keep putting myself where the matter of trusting her matters to me. It doesn't matter where she goes or what explanation she offers.
I can't turn this around with her. I can only act like a better me. I don't get mad, I don't ask questions, I don't make demands. Like you said, when she doesn't do something, just let her know nicely what I expect next time and keep going.
Sandi you are right I deserve better and I must act like someone who really does.
I can do this.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Hello Sandi. Thank you for your thoughts. I believe you would say I'm being ridiculous and there nothing else I can do at this point except move away from her. I can't be the one who listens to her right now. I can't allow her to lean on me emotionally.
No, not exactly. This what you said:
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Quote: I guess by cutting her off so extremely, I'm showing her what she expected... that I don't love her and think little of her. She wants someone of high value to value her and hear her.
What I see in this statement is HP blaming and putting himself down, while making excuses for her. IMHO, that is a backslide when your thoughts start going back there. You are still having a lot of trouble balancing. You go too far when you are thinking of "keeping the road paved smoothly" and then turn and go too far the other direction when you are thinking of "boundaries and detaching" I don't like to hear that you are showing her what she expected.......which, according to you, would be that you don't love her or value her. I am going to say something that you won't like to hear b/c she is still your W and the mother of your child. If you could look at her objectively and without your attachment, you would see her as an adulteress and a liar, who has selfishly broken her home b/c she would not end her wayward lifestyle. She makes choices that constantly puts her son on the back burner and keeps him upset. She totally disrespects and takes advantage of you, not to mention her threats and manipulation. You have said as much yourself, but b/c you have feelings for her it probably angers you for another person to say it. That's totally normal and I mean no disrespect toward you, HP, and please do not be offended by my attempt to get you to understand what I want you to see. How do you love and value this kind of person? Yet you get down on yourself b/c you have a problem with it? I think you love who and what she use to be, and you are hoping she will find that person again. (I really hope she does, too. And I believe it "is" possible.)
It may sound that I am contradicting what someone else may have told you. However, I am of the belief that a person has to have a value system they live by, before they can expect others to actually show them they are valued. Do you see what I mean? I have no doubt she wants you to give her top priority, letting her chew your ears off and monopolizing your time while you are always reassuring her how valuable she is. I just don't happen to believe that is what you need to do at this point & time. I don't believe it works with a wayward.
For the record, I am not saying to turn your back on her. However, on second thought, perhaps that is how you may interpret it if you were truly detached from her and stopped her game playing.
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Even so, sometimes I want to reach out to her and just talk. Every contact she makes she asks to talk. She gives me opportunities to talk everyday. She still complains I don't answer the phone even after I've told her I won't.
As I recall, that describes the biggest part of how the MR went every evening at home. You both engaged in conversation. She not only has a need for it, but DEMANDS it from you. She has begged, pouted, insisted, and got very angry over wanting you to talk with her (which in reality means she wants you to listen to her talk). Of course you miss talking with her. That was all that was going on in the MR. You are lonely and suffering for adult company, and you miss having a family with her. More reason to GAL and be around other adults. I know it doesn't replace what you desire for your M, but I think it would help you stay a little more balanced in these areas.
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I understand Sandi. When my W is happy she is a wonderful and caring person. Over the years she has shown herself to be high strung and anxious and she stresses about not having enough money. The life she wants a man to give her now is low on all those things
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She may get better, or she may continue to get worse. Most of us are wonderful people when we are happy. However, I direct you back to what I said in my previous post. Are you wanting (and missing) the woman she use to be, or the woman she currently is? That point is why you need to stay balanced and objective in your thinking/actions.
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She won't give me what I deserve right now. Maybe she never will no matter how I treat her now.
Very true, however, it is YOUR choice how to deal with this stitch. IMO, you can detach and have a life without her ruling every aspect of it. Frankly, I don't know if there is hope for her or for the M to survive, b/c she had several of these tendencies before getting involved with OM. I still go back to what I have said in the past, that you have to save yourself before saving the M. How you do it is your choice. We are here to help, if we can. That is what I am trying to point out so you will find your balance in all of this.
You say your firm boundaries suck. Actually HP, you need to have tougher ones. Not to be mean to her, but to get control of your life. No, you don't like having to refuse things and/or hear her cry. (Not to be hateful, but sometimes it seems she cries whenever backed into a corner or she can't come back with an answer.). So about boundaries, you can stop her from threatening to call the police or get a lawyer, etc. You surely aren't worried if she did! In most cases, if you tell the person to do whatever they think is best.......or to have at it, they cool their heels pretty quickly. She knows she doesn't have a leg to stand on! She is trying to bully you.
So, after the latest episode, what type of boundary do you need? A court appointed child visitation schedule? A legal separation? She's still abusing the joint account, why haven't you closed all joint accounts and bills? Set the tuition up to billed separately. Don't cover for her, and let her deal with those she owes. How does it work for "you" to say you don't have the money this month? Why are you sharing a storage facility? (Which probably is not that serious, except she takes advantage in every way she can.). She rules your life b/c you allow it. You can stop when you've had enough, but it won't be pleasant at first. She is in a power struggle with you, and she's winning. How? B/c of not firmer boundaries. Therefore, she will not respect you as long as she can control you.
When she learns she cannot bully you, and she begins to respect you and gets her sh't together, THEN the M will stand a chance.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I sent her a text just now apologizing for my reaction to her travel and wishing her well on her trip.
Are you serious?
Hello Sandi. Yes in the scrum of things last night I thought she said she was flying out with her boss. I listened to her VM again and she did not say that. I reacted to that miscommunication as her lying again so I apologized for my misunderstanding and my reaction. I was wrong.
She still understands she was wrong about not letting me know about the trip. I took it as a chance to admit my mistake and better communication.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
I really liked what Sandi said about the WAS has to change too in Order for the M. To work.
HP when you go see your IC try role playing examples of texts and interactions with your W. I did that many yrs ago when I went through my first divorce. It helped me tremendously. I learned to have a voice and know where my boundaries were without falling back into old patterns.
I say this today and will post it too on my thread.
There is a difference between giving up and knowing when you've had enough
I thought it was a good one to remember for all of us
Me 52 H 44 T9 M 5 BD 12/11 H split 8/12 OW moved in 12/12 OW gone for good 6/14 We get closer again 9/14 SD 13 Me 4 Grown
Accept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will be.
HP, I'm not sure how this will be received, but I urge you to really listen to sandi and start exercising tough love for your own sanity. I do realize that despite all the crap you have been through that you love her still, and at the same time one of the greatest acts of love you can do right now is to let her experience her choice to the fullest. Sandi already laid out the details, so I won't repeat them here.
M: 8.5 T:10 Me:37 W:34 S:6
Retrouvaille and W moves back- 7/31/15 Piecing - 7/4/15 to present
Hello Sandi. First, thank you so much again for sticking with me. I value your experience very much and keep it in mind every time I interact with W.
You are very kind to say you will say something I do not want to hear. Thing is, I know exactly what you are saying about my W. She is an adulteress and a liar and I know this. I am not offended by your saying the truth.
Thing is... what you say is part what I am working to reconcile...
The fact as 25 and others have said that W has not been completely happy in our M and now sees hope that her life can change so she is acting the way she is towards me. The fact that I have always wanted our lives to change and now is the best chance we've ever had to see that happen. The fact that I bear my own responsibility in this and I have not given our M enough. The fact that I can have a much better life without her right now being the way she is with me right now. The fact that we, or me with someone else, could have an amazing life together when I get my life where I want it to be for myself.
I know I have to work to detach and really walk away from her.... really not allow her to feel like she can bully me or threaten me at any point. I thought I was doing that today but like you said went to far to one side and then felt bad and went all the way to the other side.
Even so, I have no fear now of enforcing boundaries. I want to get the balance right when I do to make enough chance to make space for an R. I am committed to this year to allow this to happen. I want to do it right.
My IC also suggested I just go and get a mediated or legal separation agreement. Make it very real for her. Everything she has threatened I was the one to actually do. She threatened a legal S and I understand I may have to do that though I don't want to pay for it.
Funny... in our texting today I missed this... she blamed her inability to keep S12 and do what she wanted to do during this "transition" on me making her "homeless." That again I'm the one making this hard and all the difficultly is my fault because I physically left her. That I was wrong b/c I left her b/c she was being an adulteress and a liar. She even said during our last R talk that, if I had given her the benefit of the doubt at the beginning, maybe all this would be different. How can I deal with someone who says this? She has an A and I find out and I made her homeless? I'm the one hurting S12? She keeps saying this.
That is the kind of thing she says when she is cornered. I want to be empathetic and stand as others have but I face her blaming me consistently while she says she owns destroying the trust between us. She asked me just today why I don't believe what she says. Really? Instead of threatening D... she threatens legal S. Yes I'm still on her roller coaster.
If I'm not empathetic towards W... If I'm only objective... then likely I don't want to give her a chance. I file for D getting the maximum for myself and S12 and I find an easy going, curvy, beach loving young woman from the Caribbean and a sweet life on the ocean with her and my boy.
But Sandi, I really believe in almost 20 years with my W. I want to really try. I want to be a man only a fool would leave. I recognize my deficiencies.
I admit I got a bottle of rum to enjoy for the Super Bowl so I'm not all here. I am reading your post over and over b/c I really want to get this right Sandi. My W is acting just like she described herself as a college girl. She's tired of being a boring W just like I am tired of being a boring H.
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When she learns she cannot bully you, and she begins to respect you and gets her sh't together, THEN the M will stand a chance.
This is where I want to go. I have nothing to lose Sandi. I am very serious here.
I want to get this right. For myself. Finally.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
I want this to be clear to you, HP, and anyone reading this thread. I am not telling you to D your W. I hope it doesn't come to that point, but it may. You can "stand" for your M, if you want to, but I see standing with a different viewpoint than some others may have.
I know how crazy a wayward can be. This is not some nice, sweet woman who did what she did b/c she was badly mistreated. Yes, She wasn't happy, and you could have done better. However, you are trying to take full responsibility for all her actions leading up to the A. and now, she can guilt you for her current condition. She has entered the world of waywardness, which is horrible for any family member who is emotionally attached to the person.
I see a difference in the person who leaves the M who is still sane and thinks and act logically. The wayward W doesn't. The woman who is not wayward may still be who she always was and has not "lost" herself. She still lives by her standard of values. There is a difference in dealing with sanity and insanity. Know what I mean? You kind of have to see waywardness almost as a state of temporary insanity. (Hopefully, it will be temporary.).
When things are this bad, as in your stitch, I believe a period of separation is needed. And I really don't believe in-house separation works b/c they really aren't apart. Anyway, this period is for the LBH to regroup and recover from the trauma his WW has brought into jis life. It is for him to find the man he wants to be and work on it without the constant distractions from his WW. It is for him to detach and regain his confidence and happiness apart from his connection to her and the MR. I could add more, but you get what I am saying.
The separation period is vital for the WW. B/c she needs to be hit by the realities she has made for herself, due to her waywardness. Oh, she will balk about most things, mostly finances. She wants everything on her terms, which are subject to change without notice. Basically, she will turn the tables to make the LBH believe all her troubles she's currently having is his fault and he owes her.
So yes, I believe in tough love when it is necessary, and I believe it is necessary with waywards. Some have to get tougher than others. When the WW comes to her senses and begins working to get herself straightened out and her life in order.........THEN there is hope for the M to be reconciled. The LBH will be stable, healthy, strong, and confident to step into the position of husband once again. His W will be ready and willing to do whatever it takes to make the M work.
To me, keeping the road paved smooth, means what you do or don't during the time you are apart from her. For an example, having a major falling out with her family could cause bumps in the road. Getting on FB and publicly slandering her could cause worse bumps. Getting engaged to another woman would definitely cause some serious holes in the road. Having a child with another woman might cause some barriers in the road. Standing for your M means you don't do things like that, if you are not divorced from her. But it doesn't mean you can't pull away and have a life while she is on her journey in crazy land. (I talk about the craziness b/c I was there, and it was nothing compared to your W.).
I hope I have clarified my position, in case anyone misunderstood where I stand about saving the M.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Interesting to read that Sandi regarding how you belive you need to sepearte for WAW to see her decisions in full view. That is the point im at at the moment. My wife is still twiddling me around her little finger because she knows she can. My wife is not thinknig logically or rationally. Currently living in a fantasy world where she has complete adulation from 2 men and she is milking it for all its worth. As tough as it is i cant wait to get out on my own. I need to find myself. Make some informed decisions about what i want to do. It is impossible while my wife keeps throwing me the litte bones of hope and i keep chasing after them. Keep posting HP. I watch your situation closly. Your are much further down the line from me but a fighter for your family. Sandi your advice as always is spot on.
Me:40 W:35 D:8 T:13 M:10 WAW: 7/14 PA Discovered: 1/15 at least 6 months Moved out and moved on
