I'm just utterly gutted right now :(

[25yearsmlc]

What were the other problems that she would bring up that you swept under the rug? I understand you were afraid, but you can obviously see that didn't help.

It all centered around first her mom dying and me not being there. I have apologized for this 10000 times over the last few years. She has issues with forgiving and forgetting, she still brings up minute issues from 10+ years ago so that is always a huge impediment. She had a crappy childhood (parents divorced when she was like 3 and her dad pretty much disappeared) so i think that plays a lot into her forgiving/forgetting.

Frank, I'm so sorry you are in such pain. But it will help you A LOT MORE to dig deep and own the pieces of this that are yours and to do something radically different this time.

Apologizing to her wasn't wrong but it's not enough. You cannot just "SAY" you are sorry. She has to know that the same thing would not happen again.

That's a big, key difference. That means different behavior on your end.

How are you behaving any differently than before? I mean, seems to me that is what she was looking for since at least 2012, and didn't see enough change to make her believe things could be better/different.

Unless a WAS believes the marriage can be better/different than before,

chances are they won't return to a marriage they left.

The LBSer must demonstrate ways that this marriage can be better/different.

You do that by changing how You interact, how you behave, how you seem to be.


Aside from that, i haven't swept anything under the rug...just recurrent bouts of "unhappiness" and like i said it always would come during periods of other stress in her life and she would confront me about it but it was never from a position of "i'm unhappy, can you help?" it was always just very negative "i'm unhappy there's nothing you can do".

Read your first posts again. You mentioned several bouts of marriage problems, a few times she said she wanted a divorce, and you promised change. But it didn't happy. Evidently you both DID nothing new or different. Did you guys see a marriage counselor or did either of you begin counseling?

The inability to be there for her when she most needed you, (her mom's illness and death) was a huge deal to her, obviously. You have to know that times like childbirth, the death of a parent, or other loved one - are times when a spouse is most needed - and it's when your behavior and words are most noticed. For some, blowing it during those times is just unforgivable. I'm not defending that, I'm explaining.

I point this^^ out b/c you are forgetting the pieces to this that you may be able to do something about.

We have to ponder how you can reassure her that you'd never be "absent" or as you said "not handling it well", but I'm not sure what that means.

Did you withdraw from her or leave the area or what? And when you slept elsewhere for months, what did you DO to change her mind? Did things just fade and not get addressed, and

can you see that merely hoping things faded out, means they may have faded for you, but they were still hurting her?

I mention this b/c you seem unable to see that to HER, this has been dragging on for some time and to HER, she has been "trying" for years to be happy inside the marriage.

This time, you need to show that you can and will change and that things can and would be different and better, and last.



But then a day or two later we would act like nothing was wrong and that was just the dumbest thing we could have ever done. I just am conflict adverse, so it was easier to just let a few days pass and hope things eased back instead of confronting the issues head on.

Often this ^^ behavior is the kiss of death. Problems really do not "go away". Those who say they are "conflict averse" almost seem to think the rest of us like conflict, but that's SO not true.

We just know that without processing and resolving conflicts, they stay and poison our relationships and sabotage our chances of being happy together.

I realize i haven't been a great husband and i realize i have many short-comings but from my POV our marriage should have never gotten to this point.


In what ways were you "not great"? Identify the ways you feel you failed her and if you think they're real, figure out ways to change them asap. For real, for good.

As for how the marriage should never have gotten to this point, couldn't she feel the same way? It sounds as if she was always the one to say the marriage needed work and from your posts, you were the one who did nothing new or different and preferred hoping the issues would go away. Is that a reasonably fair assessment? It matters b/c you are suggesting this is "sudden" but I'm betting she's not seeing it that way at all.


If you know you have work to do, issues to work on, why not start there?

You are all you control in this situation (a much harder concept to accept, but its vital that you remember this at all times).

So your focus has to Stop being on HER - and only be on you.




From the outside looking in, i can't understand how someone can have a spouse that loves them so much, so unconditionally and just shut them off. It seems like anyone should want a partner like that, but she's just walled me out of her heart


Frank, It's easy to start feeling like a victim in this situation. But it does NOT HELP you.
Keep going back to your earliest most honest posts and see your role in this. She seems to have felt shut off from you, in the past.

If you don't see your own role in this, if you keep acting as if this came out of nowhere and just last week, you'll stay stuck.

You need to take action to move forward, demonstrate change, & become the man you always wanted to become (become a man only a fool would leave)


and be the guy she fell in love with. How do you think you can do some of that?




--

[Frank75]

What were the other problems that she would bring up that you swept under the rug? I understand you were afraid, but you can obviously see that didn't help.

Frank, I'm so sorry you are in such pain. But it will help you A LOT MORE to dig deep and own the pieces of this that are yours and to do something radically different this time.

Apologizing to her wasn't wrong but it's not enough. You cannot just "SAY" you are sorry. She has to know that the same thing would not happen again.

That's a big, key difference. That means different behavior on your end.

How are you behaving any differently than before? I mean, seems to me that is what she was looking for since at least 2012, and didn't see enough change to make her believe things could be better/different.

Unless a WAS believes the marriage can be better/different than before,

chances are they won't return to a marriage they left.

The LBSer must demonstrate ways that this marriage can be better/different.

You do that by changing how You interact, how you behave, how you seem to be.


Read your first posts again. You mentioned several bouts of marriage problems, a few times she said she wanted a divorce, and you promised change. But it didn't happy. Evidently you both DID nothing new or different. Did you guys see a marriage counselor or did either of you begin counseling?

The inability to be there for her when she most needed you, (her mom's illness and death) was a huge deal to her, obviously. You have to know that times like childbirth, the death of a parent, or other loved one - are times when a spouse is most needed - and it's when your behavior and words are most noticed. For some, blowing it during those times is just unforgivable. I'm not defending that, I'm explaining.

I point this^^ out b/c you are forgetting the pieces to this that you may be able to do something about.

We have to ponder how you can reassure her that you'd never be "absent" or as you said "not handling it well", but I'm not sure what that means.

Did you withdraw from her or leave the area or what? And when you slept elsewhere for months, what did you DO to change her mind? Did things just fade and not get addressed, and

can you see that merely hoping things faded out, means they may have faded for you, but they were still hurting her?

I mention this b/c you seem unable to see that to HER, this has been dragging on for some time and to HER, she has been "trying" for years to be happy inside the marriage.

This time, you need to show that you can and will change and that things can and would be different and better, and last.



Often this ^^ behavior is the kiss of death. Problems really do not "go away". Those who say they are "conflict averse" almost seem to think the rest of us like conflict, but that's SO not true.

We just know that without processing and resolving conflicts, they stay and poison our relationships and sabotage our chances of being happy together.


In what ways were you "not great"? Identify the ways you feel you failed her and if you think they're real, figure out ways to change them asap. For real, for good.

As for how the marriage should never have gotten to this point, couldn't she feel the same way? It sounds as if she was always the one to say the marriage needed work and from your posts, you were the one who did nothing new or different and preferred hoping the issues would go away. Is that a reasonably fair assessment? It matters b/c you are suggesting this is "sudden" but I'm betting she's not seeing it that way at all.


If you know you have work to do, issues to work on, why not start there?

You are all you control in this situation (a much harder concept to accept, but its vital that you remember this at all times).

So your focus has to Stop being on HER - and only be on you




From the outside looking in, i can't understand how someone can have a spouse that loves them so much, so unconditionally and just shut them off. It seems like anyone should want a partner like that, but she's just walled me out of her heart

Frank, It's easy to start feeling like a victim in this situation. But it does NOT HELP you.
Keep going back to your earliest most honest posts and see your role in this. She seems to have felt shut off from you, in the past.

If you don't see your own role in this, if you keep acting as if this came out of nowhere and just last week, you'll stay stuck.

You need to take action to move forward, demonstrate change, & become the man you always wanted to become (become a man only a fool would leave)


and be the guy she fell in love with. How do you think you can do some of that?


--

I am trying not to be mad or place blame on here, i really am. It's hard right now even though i know none of this was her fault. I've told her i don't hold it against her, we've had no anger between us this week just sadness. The only thing i can do at this point is try to get a stay of execution while i work on myself or just move out, work on myself and roll the dice that she will notice. Her mindset right now is for me to be out asap...probably because right now i'm only making matters worse by being depressed. I told her this morning that i'd go to a hotel tonight instead of her but she already made the reservations.

I really would do anything to make this work again and for her that isn't even a possibility right now. I just have to make the changes, identify the issues, and hope her heart is open to what i become in the future. I found this quote the other day and this identifies me to a T

It is said that people don’t change until they hit rock bottom and I can tell you first hand that the bottom doesn't get any lower than the earth beneath these men’s feet. The threat of divorce generates true soul-searching. These are the men who readily schedule appointments for therapy, sign up for marriage seminars, read every self-help book they can get their hands on, seek spiritual connection and even risk vulnerability by discussing the f-word (feelings) with friends and family. Gradually, they become the husbands these women have been wanting.

[susana4]

Thanks, i will try to make an appointment this week to see someone. I've been at the point of calling a crisis hotline a few times, i even had the number pulled up but then decided i was ok.

Good luck, hope you can get an appointment tomorrow. Like seeing the doctor, there's no shame in calling a crisis hotline. Depending on the hotline and their purpose (if they're available for talking about any issue), they may be happy just to talk to you for 10 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, whatever you need, just so you have some support. If you feel like it might benefit you, you should go ahead and call them.

[Frank75]

Good luck, hope you can get an appointment tomorrow. Like seeing the doctor, there's no shame in calling a crisis hotline. Depending on the hotline and their purpose (if they're available for talking about any issue), they may be happy just to talk to you for 10 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, whatever you need, just so you have some support. If you feel like it might benefit you, you should go ahead and call them.

Part of what i'm working on is talking about my issues instead of holding them in. I never really gave thought to a crisis hotline until this time last week, i always thought they were all suicide watch type things but it makes sense for people with no one else to talk to about any sort of crisis. I definitely will call if i approach that low level again. I've been reading a lot about techniques to use when i feel panic type feelings coming on and so far they seem to be helping as well. Deep breaths/positive thoughts/etc. Thanks for helping me through this, Susana.

[Frank75]

I think i've finally wrapped my head around the thought of at least being able to move out. Will it be tough and sad as hell? Yes. Will it possibly allow me to show my wife that I'm serious about our future? Yes.

Our situation is unique in that we live in a small house, i work from home, and there's NOTHING around us. So by moving here a few years ago I just think it put a laser focus on our issues and we still had no idea how to go about trying to fix them. I think by me moving out of the house, we can possibly try to reconnect with IMs and phone calls instead of both sitting here in silence (or in different rooms) and having the constant feeling of unhappiness hovering over us. Maybe even eventually convincing her to drive down to visit and go see a movie/get dinner and discuss life.

I also plan on joining a gym, possibly volunteering at an animal shelter in my off time, going back to church for the first time in 20+ years, and i'm sure some other things. The more I wrap my head around this whole thing, the more i'm realizing how much i lost myself over the last few years, i think i was depressed and didn't realize it, and all of my thoughts were being focused on how happy/unhappy my W was each day and having my life revolve around that.

Don't get me wrong, i'm still sadder than hell, but i'm trying to focus on positives and not get hung up on negatives. It's the only way i can make it through this....i guess the human brain has some sort of self-preservation built in.

[susana4]

Good luck, hope you can get an appointment tomorrow. Like seeing the doctor, there's no shame in calling a crisis hotline. Depending on the hotline and their purpose (if they're available for talking about any issue), they may be happy just to talk to you for 10 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, whatever you need, just so you have some support. If you feel like it might benefit you, you should go ahead and call them.

Part of what i'm working on is talking about my issues instead of holding them in. I never really gave thought to a crisis hotline until this time last week, i always thought they were all suicide watch type things but it makes sense for people with no one else to talk to about any sort of crisis. I definitely will call if i approach that low level again. I've been reading a lot about techniques to use when i feel panic type feelings coming on and so far they seem to be helping as well. Deep breaths/positive thoughts/etc. Thanks for helping me through this, Susana.

Of course, Frank, happy to support. This forum has really been an invaluable source of support for me so far! I think the crisis hotlines are great, in fact I think I may make a donation to my local one, they were so kind and they even offered to phone me later that week after our marriage counselling so I could talk to someone about how it went. It's also completely different to talking to a friend or family because they won't judge and they won't tell you what to do. I think talking more about your feelings sounds like a good idea and like a good 180 too.

I just saw your last post, your attitude sounds really good frank! And your plans for getting out and volunteering etc sound good. Do bear in mind you shouldn't push or convince your wife to come spend time with you but she may well find she misses you, or is curious enough if you make a lot of changes to your lifestyle and your overall level of happiness, that she is curious and wants to know what's going on. Good luck and hugs to you.

[Frank75]

Of course, Frank, happy to support. This forum has really been an invaluable source of support for me so far! I think the crisis hotlines are great, in fact I think I may make a donation to my local one, they were so kind and they even offered to phone me later that week after our marriage counselling so I could talk to someone about how it went. It's also completely different to talking to a friend or family because they won't judge and they won't tell you what to do. I think talking more about your feelings sounds like a good idea and like a good 180 too.

I just saw your last post, your attitude sounds really good frank! And your plans for getting out and volunteering etc sound good. Do bear in mind you shouldn't push or convince your wife to come spend time with you but she may well find she misses you, or is curious enough if you make a lot of changes to your lifestyle and your overall level of happiness, that she is curious and wants to know what's going on. Good luck and hugs to you.

It's definitely been a huge help and support to me too. It's nice having people experiencing the same thing being here to help. I also really appreciate the "tough love" that caused me to have a lot of introspection. I think i'm going to try and see if there's any counselors in town. I've never been before and right now is probably the right time to see one while my emotions are raw but i'm more open than i've ever been in my life.

Thanks I guess 'convince' was the wrong word. She loves going out and i think besides me, one of her major sources of unhappiness was moving where we did and not realizing how tough it is with NOTHING to do unless it involves the outdoors. And just to note, i definitely offered many times to move but she didn't want to even though she was unhappy My only issue now is to try and balance on that line between trying to get her to see changes and not overdoing it and pushing her away.

[25yearsmlc]

It's definitely been a huge help and support to me too. It's nice having people experiencing the same thing being here to help. I also really appreciate the "tough love" that caused me to have a lot of introspection. I think i'm going to try and see if there's any counselors in town. I've never been before and right now is probably the right time to see one while my emotions are raw but i'm more open than i've ever been in my life.

You sound wonderfully ripe for change. That's a great time for going. Besides, If not now, when?

Did you check out that personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience"? (Sorry but now I'm not even sure if I told you specifically about it but), it's in Philadelphia. It's also called "EE" for short.

It is for individuals to work on their issues, whether from work related problems or childhood issues resurfacing, alcohol, temper, or just some obstacles to overcome or goals to clarify, "EE" is excellent for it.

For me, therapy was usually very helpful. But some times it was "fragmented" B/c right after I had an insight or breakthrough, I'd have to go back to work or pick up the kids. Therapy was only an hour. The next week I'd have to regroup and start over.

So at times, for me, a long weekend workshop like EE was more effective at creating change and sticking to it. Definitely the most profound workshop I've attended, and since then I've gone back a few times to do "team", which is like a free refresher course.

You would get A LOT out of it, I think. Anyhow, just check out their website.

Then in time, if your w is amenable, attending Retrovaille is also a great idea. But it's for couples, not individuals. We went to that when we began piecing, which was a lot harder than I expected, and it was just what we needed then.

But that's down the road. For now, start with a good counselor. If you don't connect well enough with them after a few meetings (very few, imo) then find another one.

You want to have a good fit, so you trust them, and so you believe you will dig deeply enough (or they'll help you with that) and of course you want to feel supported and not judged.




Thanks I guess 'convince' was the wrong word. She loves going out and i think besides me, one of her major sources of unhappiness was moving where we did and not realizing how tough it is with NOTHING to do unless it involves the outdoors. And just to note, i definitely offered many times to move but she didn't want to even though she was unhappy My only issue now is to try and balance on that line between trying to get her to see changes and not overdoing it and pushing her away.

My gut feeling is that you have a ways before getting to that point. (So maybe Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow...?).

Hang in there! GOOD LUCK, keep on keeping on.

[susana4]

It's definitely been a huge help and support to me too. It's nice having people experiencing the same thing being here to help. I also really appreciate the "tough love" that caused me to have a lot of introspection. I think i'm going to try and see if there's any counselors in town. I've never been before and right now is probably the right time to see one while my emotions are raw but i'm more open than i've ever been in my life.

Frank, I agree with what 25years said here, now is definitely a good time for counselling. As awful as this whole experience is, it is a good chance for some reflection, opening up, and making some real changes - that will benefit you for the rest of your life, regardless of what happens with your M. When choosing a counselor, you might want to try out a few, like 25years says, until you find one you get on with. How much you benefit will really depend on how well you get on with the counsellor and how much you can open up to them, plus there are different types of counseling so you might like some styles better than others.

[susana4]

Did you check out that personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience"? (Sorry but now I'm not even sure if I told you specifically about it but), it's in Philadelphia. It's also called "EE" for short.

It is for individuals to work on their issues, whether from work related problems or childhood issues resurfacing, alcohol, temper, or just some obstacles to overcome or goals to clarify, "EE" is excellent for it.

I think I might be the one you told about EE. At least I know you definitely told me about it recently (it sounds great, really wish I could go).