I thought everything was okay.....(Part 3)

[MCS]

Throw some thing out there. What are some of things you think you need right off the top of your head?

So, idk, but hers things that are what upsets me the most, in no particular order....

- I had no chance to work on the R, W was deceptive for a long time and lulled MCS into thinking things were okay

- I'm angry that things that W blamed about our M and me over the last year were things that were actual the things causing her A to be more difficult.

I asked her to not be in the phone as much (MCS controlling) I suggested she go into work on her days off, if she was overwhelmed with stuff to do (MCS not respecting her Indiv. Time) she told me I tracked her on the find my iPhone (MCS controlling) Upset she only went out with her friends by herself 2-3x per month (MCS controlling)

-I feel I've let my kids down in keeping our M together

-I'm hurt that she didn't feel she could tell me about any of her struggles

- I don't trust her about most stuff right now

- She's lied and deceived me for over a year

- she used me to justify her A, saying I pushed her into it

- she used me to justify her Internet chats, saying I commented to her around that time that our intimacy had improved

- I feel hurt that she is shunning the people that love her and replacing them with people that are using her

- I'm angry she's identified it, yet still continues to harm another family

[MCS]

So, I'm all over the place right now. Not sure if I detaching or just done. I never replied back to that email since both MC and IC figured out I wasn't being honest with myself. My IC asked why, I flipped back to catering to her and apologizing? I know it's because I'm still fearful of I say how I feel it will push her farther away to just not talking about the kids at all.

I still love her and want to make this work out, but I'm just getting so frustrated with her behavior.

when she asked about what I needed for closure, it was the first time that I saw that she actually was looking outside herself at my feelings. So, I thought she got out of her fog and this was actually a thought through question. Then I found out that she called the MC (mediation) and tried to cancel, and that question was him telling her to do that (like when he told her to apologize to me.).so then that knocked me into thinking she's still in the fog, especially since I now see whatever is going on with OM is not finished.

I guess if I recognized my old W and she still was telling me this is what she wanted, it would be one thing. But what I see is totally different and not seeming to handle any emotionally challenges or conflict at all. At least not in front of me. That's why I'm confused.

She dropped off kids for today and as soon as they came in, they pretty much ignored her. She tried to get their attention and they just didn't seem interested. D4 gave her a quick hug when she asked, but turned right back around and they were talking with me about my trip. W had a box of stuff of mine and just kind of put it down, paused for a second that seemed like she was going to try and get the kids attention again and turned around and left. None of us really even acknowledged she was walking out the door. If I were in her shoes, that would have been pretty tough.

[Mozza]

I still love her and want to make this work out, but I'm just getting so frustrated with her behavior.

I really, really wish you would let go of your expectations regarding your W's behavior. To me, and I'm no therapist nor vet, it is the center of your problem. You keep expecting her to behave a certain way and then you get upset when she doesn't. You give her all that power over you.

I don't know how to tell it to you so that it gets through. Let's try a metaphor. You married a dog and she turned into a cat. She's a cat now. She doesn't come when you whistle, she's not jumping up and down when you open the door and she doesn't fetch a stick. Stop expecting her to do all these things, accept that she's turned into a cat.

You come here and say: "I threw a stick and she didn't fetch it!" We could all tell you: of course she won't, she's a cat now. So your WAW is not going to feel guilty, she's not going to care about your emotions, she's not going to parent like before, seek happiness with you, etc. None of the WAW do. You need to shrug it off.

Or perhaps you need to think of it as a mental illness. Or an accident. If she had a car accident and was in a coma, would you get all upset that she doesn't reply to your questions? Even if she was replying to your questions just the day before?

You give an impression of entitlement, like she owes you something. She doesn't anymore and you don't owe her anymore. Every contract in the world can be broken. Your W has broken the contract. Yes, it's unfair. It's mean. It's illogical. BUT SHE'S BROKEN IT. She's not a dog anymore, she's a cat. You alone are in this M with the known set of rules. She checked out. She doesn't react like a W anymore.

This is barely above beer banter, but I think as an engineer you're used to the laws of physics. You can rely on them. You're used to a predictable world. Now this is the most unexpected thing and it's touching your very core. It's very hard to accept that things can change so radically, especially for bad, arbitrary reasons. When you argue with colleagues over a technical solutions, you can use the laws of physics to win your case and crush their illogical arguments. In your sitch, you kick and scream for her to re-apply the well-known reasons for which you committed to her. You apply the laws of M. But she doesn't abide by them and, the sad fact is, she can.

The good news, perhaps, is that she won't escape the laws of human nature. She'll feel the sting of her bad decisions sooner or later. Hopefully, it won't come from you otherwise she'll blame you. But life will teach her a few lessons sooner or later. Get out of the way.

[MCS]

I really, really wish you would let go of your expectations regarding your W's behavior........You give her all that power over you.

Yeah, I'm starting to see that this is the core of my problem and its causing me to get angry. I don't know how to drop these expectations totally. I think if I do, I'll see this person in her that I really don't like. I think I use my expectations to trick my mind into not dealing with reality, of what she's doing to me and my family. I 'expect' her to act a certain way, because in my mind it gives me comfort that my W is still inside this shell of whatever she's doing right now.

However, when the expectation isn't being met, I get angry. Fact of the matter is you guys see that anger, my friends see that anger, but then I fear to show her that anger, because I feel it will push her away. I changed that this week and it did push her away. I can't hold this stuff in anymore, its eating me alive. Its changing me to a place I don't want to go.

I need to fight the cause and not the symptom. Problem is, I can see if I do that, I fear it will be my point that I'm done in all of this. Maybe that's what I'm fighting, that I don't want her.....and I won't admit it to myself.

You give an impression of entitlement, like she owes you something. She doesn't anymore and you don't owe her anymore. Every contract in the world can be broken. Your W has broken the contract. Yes, it's unfair. It's mean. It's illogical. BUT SHE'S BROKEN IT.

Yes, you're right. I do feel entitled. I feel entitled, it was called marriage. In a marriage, she owes me and my family the opportunity to work through this, she owes us the truth, she owes us to be freaking nice and friendly in a time that everyone is hurting because of decisions she made.

Mozza, I'm typing this and just don't know why I'm still in this.

I'm a religious person and marriage is not a contract for me, its a commitment and a covenant. She's treating it like a contract. If it was a contract and I saw her for who she is right now, and I didn't 'expect' her to change or snap out of it, I would cancel the contract. Even the covenant of marriage, I have due cause, but I've been holding onto the fact that I still love her as the reason that I'm still here. Its just right now, I don't think she loves herself. If you can't love yourself, you won't let others in to love you. You asked me about empathy, that's where it is for her right now.

She doesn't love herself and she's trying to find how to get it. If I keep that in my mind, it keeps me going.

Man, I'm all over the place....I feel the last week or so that I'm at the crossroads.

This is barely above beer banter, but I think as an engineer you're used to the laws of physics. You can rely on them. You're used to a predictable world. Now this is the most unexpected thing and it's touching your very core. It's very hard to accept that things can change so radically, especially for bad, arbitrary reasons. When you argue with colleagues over a technical solutions, you can use the laws of physics to win your case and crush their illogical arguments. In your sitch, you kick and scream for her to re-apply the well-known reasons for which you committed to her. You apply the laws of M. But she doesn't abide by them and, the sad fact is, she can.

This is very true, I will be coming back to this paragraph a lot.

[MCS]

So, Mozza will be mad at me on this; but I can see that I messed up DB today.

She came and picked up the kids. D4 and I were in the middle of putting Lego's together. W came to the door and walks two steps in, like normal. D4 ran over to her to say hi and then this conversation started between her and D4

D4: "Mommy, come look at what Daddy and I are building"
W "No D4, I'm fine here"
D4 "Mommy please come look" (starts pulling her by the hand)
W "No, I'm not going. I'll have to see later"
D4 "Come on mommy" (now D4 is on the ground with her feet up against the wall trying to make W move)

At that point, I had enough. I said:

"W, just go in and see the Lego's. She just wants to show you"

So W looked at me and walked in to see it. It wasn't my place to say anything, but this is part of my frustration when she's doing it to the kids.

So, then we were getting their shoes on them and D4 comes up to me and gives me a hug and says "Daddy, I don't want to go to Mommy's; I want to stay with you"

I just said, "No, D4 you need to go to Mommys, I love you very much"

Uggh.....Why can't I just ignore this stuff???

[TLEE86]

I really, really wish you would let go of your expectations regarding your W's behavior........You give her all that power over you.

I 'expect' her to act a certain way, because in my mind it gives me comfort that my W is still inside this shell of whatever she's doing right now.

Im curious MCS, save your W telling you she loves you and wants to make the M work, how do you want your W to act? What would you like her to do? Just be friendly around the kids?

Maybe that's what I'm fighting, that I don't want her.....and I won't admit it to myself.

Do you really not want her or are you just saying this? Ive said sometimes I just wish we would just figure this out and if its a D, then its a D. But in reality, thats really not what I want at all. Don't say stuff you really don't mean.

I'm a religious person and marriage is not a contract for me, its a commitment and a covenant. She's treating it like a contract. If it was a contract and I saw her for who she is right now, and I didn't 'expect' her to change or snap out of it, I would cancel the contract. Even the covenant of marriage, I have due cause, but I've been holding onto the fact that I still love her as the reason that I'm still here.

Kinda along the same lines, but are you just in it because you're religious and you don't feel like you should break this covenant? Or are you in it because you really love your W, would do anything to make this work, and are working on yourself for you?

She doesn't love herself and she's trying to find how to get it. If I keep that in my mind, it keeps me going.

So keep this in your mind, and keep working on yourself. Continue that PMA. Have your goal in mind and work towards it.

Keep your head up MCS, here for you!

[MCS]

Everyone,

Sorry that my posts are all over the place recently. I'm not sure if I'm 'done' or just detaching. Any help with that would be appreciated

I do know I'm feeling things (that are polar opposites) that I haven't felt since the sitch started: anger then opportunity, resentment then confidence. I've been thinking about what type of person would be compatible with me, started thinking about how to look at core values of other people. The overall sorrow and depression is going away. I'm still upset, but not sure if its because I want to hold onto my marriage or because I'm scared of the uncertainty of not being married.

Like I said, I'm all over the place.

Im curious MCS, save your W telling you she loves you and wants to make the M work, how do you want your W to act? What would you like her to do? Just be friendly around the kids?

I would just like her to act similarly to how she has been for the last 15 years. Not in the respect of being married to me, but just as a person in general. Its hard to explain, but it truly is like she has 180'd from the person she was, in just about every aspect. Its not just me that sees this, my SIL told me that W is totally different.

When I talk to her, she won't even look up at me or the counselor most of the session. Avoids making eye contact. She's shut out nearly all of her friends, her family, etc.

It really seems like she is a wreck inside, but is trying everything possible not to address it which is changing how she acts. Its mind reading and cliche', I know, but both times that counseling got really tough emotionally over the last few months that he talked to us individually, when I got back in there; I saw the person I knew in her eyes. Then when we started to talk, it was like she put the game face back on.

Do you really not want her or are you just saying this?

And this is where I'm all over the place.....I know I don't want the person she is today. I have absolutely nothing in common with this person.

I do want the person that I hope is still inside, trying to get out. I saw that person when I confronted her about OM for a few hours. She said stuff about herself that she needed to work on with an IC that was spot on. But then a couple days later was back to how she's been the last couple months. Other than that, like I said above, I see it in her eyes when something emotional comes into play, but then its shut back down.

I just don't know who 'she' wants to be, I'm not sure if she does either. So its weird and pretty derogatory to say, but my MIL used to say that when W and I started dating, I totally changed her. She was happy and content. But before MCS she was selfish, mean and angry.

I never gave this much thought, I know she had a rough couple years before she met me. But, during BD she said she has become someone that she's not. Blamed me for it, but I wonder if maybe she was chasing something all these years and never was content with what she had become. IDK, that's what causes me concern.

The whole marriage thing is where this comes into play. I'm not staying married because I'm religious; but I am still in it because this is the 'worse' of better or worse. That's where my patience comes into play. I know Sandi2 says that they start getting out of the fog when they start acting similar to the person before. Also, she told me OM was 'over' so that was moving me into this is how she's going to be from here on out, but now I see that R is not really over, I think this may still be fog/fantasy. I'm just at the point that I don't know where she's at. Still in the fog or this is the 'new' her?

I really do love my wife and pray that she is lost right now.

I'm trying to work on myself through all of this. Its actually that I see that the Mr. Nice Guy is what is being worked on. I've always been confident, but been a sucker for adapting my personality to whatever the 'status quo' is for the situation. Like Mozza said in his post, to avoid conflict. That's part of the difficulty I've had over the last couple months. I had to stop going in and just apologizing.

[Vanilla]

- I had no chance to work on the R, W was deceptive for a long time and lulled MCS into thinking things were okay

of ourse you had a chance to work on the R, throughout the whole R you had a chance! We work on R throughout the R not just when times are rocky. You had not DB then, you know better now, that an R needs work even in the good times. MCS own the fact that you were happy lulled into thinking things were ok.

- I'm angry that things that W blamed about our M and me over the last year were things that were actual the things causing her A to be more difficult.

You can be angry about the A, but seems to me anger is not useful. You will keep tripping over your anger, and it prevents growth. Detaching will move you from anger.

I asked her to not be in the phone as much (MCS controlling)

did you ask or did you order? w when you spend key time on the phone then I feel upset, I would like you to spend x, y and z time with me and the kids.

I suggested she go into work on her days off, if she was overwhelmed with stuff to do (MCS not respecting her Indiv. Time)

As long as you did not order her to work then she could have offered the two finger gesture. W choice. As far as it is then validation is better, W, you are overwhelmed at work do you want to talk about it? Yes, I see, hear etc, what would you W like to do about it?

she told me I tracked her on the find my iPhone (MCS controlling)

Did you? If you did then that's prying snooping and not good. If you snoop you get poop. I know others believe otherwise but snooping is not good as a way of life.


Upset she only went out with her friends by herself 2-3x per month (MCS controlling)

her choice! Unless you physically stopped her or made a barrier for her going out. GAL is important to all of us.

-I feel I've let my kids down in keeping our M together

an illogical feeling, and controlling MCS, who says it is up to you alone to keep the M together? Are you in control of W, you know the answer.

-I'm hurt that she didn't feel she could tell me about any of her struggles

her choice!

- I don't trust her about most stuff right now

- She's lied and deceived me for over a year

- she used me to justify her A, saying I pushed her into it

yes, however it was her choice to go to an A! Ridiculous suggestion and I know you understand that wayward behaviour is completely inexcusable

- she used me to justify her Internet chats, saying I commented to her around that time that our intimacy had improved

this makes no sense to me in any way I read it.

- I feel hurt that she is shunning the people that love her and replacing them with people that are using her

your feelings not hers! You have no say and no entitlement to any say in this

- I'm angry she's identified it, yet still continues to harm another family

again your feelings, anger, not your sitch, not your place to judge or comment. Her conscience will judge her in the end, not your anger. You have better things to do that be angry MCS. Deal with your own sitch.

MCS, I can understand why you are trying to change your sitch. A number of the feelings you own are for others to own. Let go, detach. Righteous anger is an entitlement only for the self.

Be forgiving, move from a place of understanding and love, take that stance for your children. Please use the love of your children as a bridge between you and W and not as a barrier. Children come first ok? You and W are of lesser importance. Tap into that obvious love and joy as a father to extend warmth to their mother, especially in the presence of your children. In no way should children prefer mum to dad or visa versa, let go of this anger and move to peace. Resentment will eat your soul, it will erode your spirit and prevent you from becoming a man only a fool would leave.

MCS, you can do this. Lighten up, let go of the resentment and detach. You do not have to forget the harm nor an infringement of your barrier. If you and W ever reconcile or co-parent this will impede your progress.

Dearest MCS, be more at peace, enjoy your children and let go.
Stillness
Vanilla

[Vanilla]

Yeah, I'm starting to see that this is the core of my problem and its causing me to get angry. I don't know how to drop these expectations totally. I think if I do, I'll see this person in her that I really don't like.

your choice not to like W, but you need to find things in W that are positive, she is the mother of your children!

I think I use my expectations to trick my mind into not dealing with reality, of what she's doing to me and my family.

MCS! It is your mind and your expectations, change it. Have no expectations. W is doing what W needs to do for W, your family is also her family too?

I 'expect' her to act a certain way, because in my mind it gives me comfort that my W is still inside this shell of whatever she's doing right now.

Your expectation, your comfort. You have control over this adjust and adapt.

However, when the expectation isn't being met, I get angry.

Your expectation, W has no requirement to meet your expectation. Is anger serving you here? W is who W is.

Fact of the matter is you guys see that anger, my friends see that anger, but then I fear to show her that anger, because I feel it will push her away.

You are right that you feel this in my opinion but it is her choice to withdraw.

I changed that this week and it did push her away.

Self fulfilling prophecy then. It's your anger for you to get help with. I have observed that anger originates from fear so generally that needs help. MCS have some help for your anger. If I were W then I would not want to be near an angry person, no matter how justified they or I believe that anger is.

I can't hold this stuff in anymore, its eating me alive. Its changing me to a place I don't want to go.

Urgent practical help is needed. And anger management, this is not good for your physical and mental health. Exercise may assist you as an emergency measure.

I need to fight the cause and not the symptom. Problem is, I can see if I do that, I fear it will be my point that I'm done in all of this. Maybe that's what I'm fighting, that I don't want her.....and I won't admit it to myself.

To my mind there is little point in making any decisions until you are calm and in control

You give an impression of entitlement, like she owes you something. She doesn't anymore and you don't owe her anymore. Every contract in the world can be broken. Your W has broken the contract. Yes, it's unfair. It's mean. It's illogical. BUT SHE'S BROKEN IT.

Mza I so agree with this

Yes, you're right. I do feel entitled. I feel entitled, it was called marriage.

I could write a whole thread on this! Why should W fulfil your entitlements in M?

In a marriage, she owes me and my family the opportunity to work through this, she owes us the truth, she owes us to be freaking nice and friendly in a time that everyone is hurting because of decisions she made.

No! And it is W family too, and inclusively not exclusively. MCS, excluding W will backfire on you. W is the children's mother work on inclusivity in that area.

Mozza, I'm typing this and just don't know why I'm still in this.

I'm a religious person and marriage is not a contract for me, its a commitment and a covenant. She's treating it like a contract. If it was a contract and I saw her for who she is right now, and I didn't 'expect' her to change or snap out of it, I would cancel the contract. Even the covenant of marriage, I have due cause, but I've been holding onto the fact that I still love her as the reason that I'm still here. Its just right now, I don't think she loves herself. If you can't love yourself, you won't let others in to love you. You asked me about empathy, that's where it is for her right now.

Mind reading MCS. Let yourself co-parent with W. W is not in tune with you and if you love W as I expect you do then get MCS help for this anger

She doesn't love herself and she's trying to find how to get it. If I keep that in my mind, it keeps me going.

Mind reading MCS. W seems to love herself well enough, I hope so as then she can love her children.

MCS apologies for two posts and not one, fat finger again.
Please get help for your anger issues, this is important as you move forward to co-parent your children. This is something that will connect you and W for life, yes I understand that you may be angry and that you feel justified in it. It is over running everything including detachment.

Vanilla

[MCS]

Vanilla, Mozza, TLEE,

Thanks a lot for commenting on here. As you can see, its a interesting time for me. I think I need to get over this to fully detach, I'm feeling like the detachment is here, but I think I'm fearful to let it take hold, because I'm worried if I'll be able to go back to her if I do. Its pretty much, I fear if I detach then I won't be able to love her. The anger is coming because I'm trying to hold onto those last little pieces of "how" our former relationship (kids) was conducted and refuse for myself to acknowledge that even that part of our relationship needs to change. Does that make sense?

I post here much more negative stuff than actually is going on, so it probably clouds things because I'm usually on here when I'm feeling down about the sitch and myself. I look at this anger and how I'm writing it down here and its quite the opposite from others that I interact with, most see me and wonder how I'm taking this so well. That's really because of these boards are truly my sanctuary and you guys tell me what I need to hear and not what I want to hear and I appreciate that.

So, thanks....

Here's my struggle with anger....you guys see it more than others and I'm using you all to figure out how to work this out in myself before it starts to take hold with others. So don't fret too much, I'm not in a bad place; there's no holes in the walls or things broken, I've been cordial to my W. Its just I'm pushing the envelope a little based on how things have went over the last 5 months and how I'd like to see our co-parenting go for the future. That's the big struggle here, we both are trying to establish that relationship as parents, yet neither of us are willing to compromise right now.....

A couple things on my anger.....

As I was going through this a couple months ago, my IC said she was concerned about how I was dealing with S, OM, W leaving, House, etc. I asked her why. IC said because she saw no anger in me, I keep justifying her behavior away and just had empathy for her. She said she wasn't sure if I was just burying it down because I was holding onto the fact that I wanted this to work out.

She said to me, you are a heckuva nice guy, genuinely concerned with others before yourself and are trying to do everything possible to save your M. But these are W's decisions and you can't take accountability for them.

Then I see how my transition away from this approach of not dealing with her decisions (that affected me or the kids) at all was to utilize my expectations on her to try and control the anger that I was suppressing. Its funny, the last couple weeks my IC said I'm growing and she's glad I'm finally expressing my anger and everyone on here is saying its preventing my growth. No one is right or wrong, its just I think the objectives are different.

I guess the difference is not whether I'm angry or not right now, but how its affecting my interactions with others. Unfortunately for you, this board is my release of it. Most everyone else is not seeing it at all.

My issue last week was that when the MC saw that she was retreating, I didn't stop. Also, I had I dropped that OM's GF still didn't know what was going on, so W lied to me, so sensitivity of that overshadowed the two things I was trying to discuss with her. How she 'expects' me to communicate with her about kids and how we are going to address the kids emotions.