Requesting support and direction

[25yearsmlc]

Last night my W clearly decided to push against the boundaries I had set up. I had asked her to keep it down if she was going to choose to talk to the OM

She pushed......and what did you do?

How exactly did you state it to her?

IDK, Andy, I realize you are learning about boundaries, but that sounds a little weak. When you set a boundary, you have to be prepared to know what YOU will do if that boundary is not honored. To me, what you told her was like saying, "When you and OM have phone sex or Internet sex (whichever it is), will you just try not to get so loud, please?"


2 things about this^^^, stick out to me.

One is what Sandi just said. It sounds weak & vague b/c you said nothing about what YOU would do IF she failed to comply (and yes, I hate that wording "comply" as if you gave her an order, but it is what it is).

It was if you were making a request of her, which is NOT setting a boundary.

NOTE: You must not set ANY boundary, if you cannot or will not follow through with the consequence you assert will follow...do you understand that??

And secondly, you have NOT let go. You are still trying to control her - instead of setting a boundary. There's a difference.

"CONTROLLING Her" is when you tell her what she can or cannot do (which is what you tried to do).

VERSUS

Setting a boundary, which is telling her what YOU will do, "if X" happens. See the difference? It may seem small - but it's a vital distinction.


So, she obviously didn't care if you or her children heard her. If D8 interrupting her phone/Internet sex had no influence, I doubt you "asking" her to keep it down will. Besides, have you thought about what you will do if she doesn't? B/c she didn't, and you can't keep "asking" her b/c every time you state a boundary it weakens it. And you really didn't state it, you asked.

THIS^^^....

You have to know what you can control and what you can't. You can't control her, so that means if she doesn't honor your stated boundary, then the action has to come from you.

and THIS^^^

How will you protect yourself (or your children) when a boundary is broken? That is what you have to think about before you spout off something and label it a "boundary".

If you are going to tolerate her living in the same house with you and the children while she conducts her A under the same roof, then you have to come up with a better plan to at least shield your children from her waywardness. She has no sense of sexual morals right now, and I'm sure you do not want your children exposed to what their mother is doing down in the basement. So, you have to think it through and decide what you can and can't do about it.

Your W is a serial cheater. You've had one A. This relationship is very damaged and if the two of you ever decide to try to work it out again, you better get the top professional to help and not just "look past it". That does not work.

I'll go back thru your thread again, to see what insights you have shared about what YOU learned from the A you had.

But 2+ affairs in a marriage, on both sides, puts you in a fragile place.

Also, how did SHE forgive you for your A, OR DID SHE? I think that may be an important thing to consider.

Did you ever wonder if there was a "tit for tat" element involved in any of this?

And finally, though this is not something your marriage can handle now and may not ever be able to,

I just want to say one thing about female male friendships.

I'm a veteran of the Army JAG Corps. When I was active duty, 85% of the JAG Corps was male. My last assignment had zero women in the office or around.

There was no way to have any friends if they were not going to be male. And no, I did not have an A.

I always invited my h to join us but he was in his medical residency and had unrelentingly long hours. In fact, during his 4 years of internship and residency,
and 3 years as a staff physician in the burn unit, we were able to have lunch ONCE...literally.

My point is, some people can manage this. I feel like I'm one of them. Maybe it's b/c I have 5 brothers, so I am used to being around men and NOT feeling sexual about them...the one time I really was tempted to have an A, it was not with a man I worked with, and I visited a chaplain and shrink to ask what the heck I was doing, b/c I was lost. Neglected, lonely, etc....my feelings were valid b/c hey, h did neglect me. I was lonely! Acting on those feelings was what I had to avoid, and did. So back to you...

However, if I or my h had a history of A's, then no, the "private friendships" would NOT be alright. Why couldn't she invite you to go along?

And btw, the men I'd occasionally do lunch with on occasion or do physical training with (we HAD to do that, by regulation)

were usually not the most handsome. Why?

Because I'm no fool. If Brad Pitt or Kevin Costner had been around then, I'd have made sure he was NOT the guy I hung with privately.

(You don't open a bottle of wine in a hotel room, with someone you KNOW you have chemistry with, b/c it's stupidly risky to put yourself in that situation).

Now, back to your thread...

[Andy125]

Thank you Sandi and 25yearsmlc for the responses, it certainly gave me a lot to think about. A couple of things that I think that I should clarify, hopefully this won’t come off as sounding defensive. I can absolutely see what you guys are saying about boundaries. Certainly what I said and thought that I set as a boundary a week ago wasn’t. I think at the time I was taking the first step to saying something anything, that wasn’t just silence and being walked all over. But I can see how simply telling her that “she has the right to talk to whoever she wants, but that she needs to keep it down because I can, and more than likely the kids can hear her” is not a boundary it was more of a I know what you were/are doing. I also agree that that statement is more about control then anything… keep in mind that I made it before having that realization that trying to control everything is a problem.

As for last night’s conversation I’m not too sure what was going on. I certainly agree that I do not want my kids walking in on anything, or hearing anything that she might be doing. I believe that last night it was simply conversation… but I know that all of you will say “how do you know?” and honestly I don’t. How do I approach this problem? I have no idea… again still working on figuring out boundaries. The biggest problem is consequences, what is effective what is fair, what embodies change vs the same old bs. Again work in progress, and thank you for the input, it helps clarify things.

As for has she forgiven me? Well the night that she dropped the bomb on me she stated that “she truly has forgiven me for the things that I have done but that she can’t forgive herself for the things that she has said and done”. If I take that at face value then I would say that yes she has… but I’m not completely convinced. I also think that there might be an element to tit for tat going on here. I have seen that behavior before from both of us; I’ve chosen to not do it anymore.

I also agree with the stance on working with the opposite sex. I work in an ER where 95% of the people I work with are women. It makes for a delicate situation to navigate, and I completely agree with being very careful how that all plays out. I guess in the beginning that is what allowed me to have a little bit of understanding in her wanting to be there for a friend. Obviously that didn’t last long, and I probably needed to say in the beginning that it didn’t make me feel very comfortable. Again I handled that completely the wrong way, one of the many lessons that I have learned in the last year and a half.

Certainly I can appreciate the severity of how fractured my marriage is right now. I guess that is why in some of the earlier posts I have asked if this is even possible. I know that for now the most important things for me to do is work on myself, focus on detaching, and be the best dad I can be for my little girls. I really thank you for asking the hard questions as well as helping to steer me in the right direction. Your feedback really helps me reflect and also evaluate what I can be doing differently. I can only hope that as I grow and develop… and maybe one day move to fixing my marriage that I will be one of the old wise people here.

[Andy125]

So yesterday I came home after a very long and busy day at work I came home to find a list on the counter. It was titled "things that I want to take with me". Honestly I took a quick look at it and left it right where it was. About 20 min later the W came up stairs and said she was going to the gym if that was ok. I said sure, and she asked how work was. I remained pleasant, found it odd she was going to the gym at 10pm but didn't pay it much more attention. She made a passing comment about seriou when I get back if your up. I just let that one roll off my back. Once she was gone I noticed that some of the books were missing on the shelf, along with some cups in the cupboard. So I guess this is happening she is moving out... I'm actually doing pretty good with it. Don't really know where this falls into things but hey if I'm going to learn to let go of control then I need to not worry. Anyways just a little update. Hey you reading this! Have a great day and smile it could be worse!!!

[Andy125]

Today has been one of those all over the board kind of days. I did my best today to dodge many attempts by my W to keep tabs on me today. Really tried to practice being more mysterious, and showing happiness. Had a very good personal counseling session today. We are going to start some good work on "control". Unfortunately when I got home more books packed up, and more behavior by my W to get a rise out of me. I am becoming increasingly convinced that her moving out is probably a good thing at this point. I'm curious to hear what people have to say on this. I also know that at this point it's really out of my control.... She will it won't move out based on she decides and not on what I do or don't do.

She also threw a little fit tonight about coming to my D's hockey practice. D8 plays hockey and we were all going to go to practice. She had made some passing comment about not going so she could nap before work. Historically this has not been a nap but another session with the OM. But D5 wanted to go, so she tried her best to convince D5 not to go. It worked, but then D5 changed her mind. W got really snarky, and I just said "fine I'll just take both girls, this isn't worth all this drama". In attempts to let go I'm trying my best to not think this has to do with OM. But I'm struggling with it.... I know detach detach.... I'm trying my friends I'm trying...

[MrBond]

"I did my best today to dodge many attempts by my W to keep tabs on me today."

I don't get why you're doing this. You shouldn't have to "dodge" anything. Just do what you want to do. You are right that you don't have control over your W, but you can continue to do what you want to do for you.

[Andy125]

What I actualy meant by this is when she would ask what I was up to i wasn't super specific. Just told her the basic info and that was it. She wanted to know when and where I was going to be and tried to get me to lay out my whole day. She tried a couple of times to get more detail on what I was up to. She simply just didn't need to know. That has been the advice given here... Let me know if I have misinterpreted it. I wasn't cold or angry.

[sandi2]

I have no idea… again still working on figuring out boundaries. The biggest problem is consequences, what is effective what is fair, what embodies change vs the same old bs. Again work in progress, and thank you for the input, it helps clarify things.

The purpose is not for you to assign consequences for her. She may feel a certain amount, or she may not....but that is not the focus behind boundaries. I made the mistake one time of not explaining that point very well to a newcomer, so I want you to understand it is not to punish her or control her. That is not your job. If she's smart, she'll figure out it is due to her actions, but she may not care. So, be wise in what you say & do.

It's like when you put a fence around your property. It is for protection. You decide what comes in and what doesn't. You can't control what goes on outside the fence, but it becomes your business when it tries to cross that barrier. Personal boundaries are like invisible fences. It is up to you what is allowed inside that boundary, and if it is something you won't live with....then you figure out what to do. Most of us respect personal, religious, ethical, moral and relationship boundaries. But some do not, and then it is up to us to protect ourselves. For example, does having an open marriage go against what you believe? Would you stay in a M with a S who brought a third person into the M?

Ask yourself if you would allow anyone to openly and knowingly disrespect you? Would you let someone come in your home and harm your children? Would sit by and watch someone burn down your house, or steal from your family? Will you tolerate lies, betrayal, disloyalty, berating, etc. inside your personal boundary/fence? If not, then you have to decide what you can do to protect yourself, your kids, your property, etc. You don't do it by appointing yourself as the punisher for the person who does those things, but you respond in a mature, effective, (and legal) manner, without you inflicting violence or injury to the other person.

Have you ever had anyone (beside your W) to disrespect you, lie, betray you, or destroy something that belonged to you? Everyone needs personal boundaries to know what they will not live without.....and what they won't tolerate.

Say you had a buddy you thought was a pretty good friend. But then you discover he has told a bunch of destructive lies and it caused you to lose your job and the respect of several people. You probably would end that friendship b/c you won't be pals with anyone who treats you in that way. That is a boundary. You don't have to necessarily do something "to" him, but you stop being any sort of pal of his. You do not include him in your life any longer. There is no more contact with him. You removed yourself from the friendship. Get the picture?

BTW, if your W moves out, are the children staying there with you?
Have you spoken with anyone about your legal rights as a father?

[Andy125]

Thanks Sandi that makes a lot of sense and I think for the first time I actually understand what is meant by boundaries. I also agree with you previous comment about what I said being kinda weak, it absolutely was. I’m still trying to figure out how I go about addressing this effectively. I will report that one of the results of last week’s conversation is my W seems more driven to move out. Unfortunately it has opened a whole can of worms about splitting up our stuff, but I also found myself saying for the first time last night to my best friend that I think that is what needs to happen right now. I know that some people will say that it’s a good thing that she is still in the house, and on one hand I can see the merit in that. On the other (which I think might be getting into the boundary issue) I feel that I simply can’t tolerate a lot of my W actions anymore. I’m tired of hearing her talk to the OM late at night through the heating vents. I’m tired of hearing her phone bing with his texts etc. etc. etc. all of the things that have set me off and I have posted here. Really I guess I’m tired of feeling embattled in my own home. I know this all means that by no means have a let go. I know I haven’t detached, but I also know that every time I feel like I’m finally getting some place with my own PMA, something in regards to her A gets slapped in my face. I don’t mean to have this be conveyed that I am the victim, I’m not I have let her walk all over me, I haven’t put up any fences at all. So I think this is what needs to happen, some space some room to breathe, room to focus on myself and my kids.

As for when my W moves out, yes the kids will be with me. Part of the Bomb conversation was her stating that she wanted the kids to stay with me. That position hasn't really changed that much, and the only time I see any remorse in her is when child support gets mentioned. I do have a lawyer and about a week after the BD I found out legally what my rights were. As it stands right now it looks like I will have them the majority of the time (placement wise ) but that we will share custody of the kids (the legal decision making aspect of things). Every conversation I have had with my W in the last few weeks, she seems to be operating from the notion that everything will continue as it has been only she will live someplace else. Last Thursday was the first time that I explained to her that that wasn't going to be the case. I explained to her that the morning and afternoon routines were going to change, that on the days that the kids were with me I would take care of the logistics of getting them to and from school. When she said that “we shouldn’t change things because the kids were used to this routine.” I simply explained to her that with her moving out the kids and I needed to learn what the new normal would be. It wasn't necessary for her to come to the house, pick the kids up and take them to school because my new class schedule allowed me to do it. I really wasn't putting it out there as a consequence but just simply as a life if going to change, our family dynamic is going to change, and I’m not going to simply continue doing what we have been doing. Am I wrong in this line of thinking? Likewise on her days off she will have the kids, I won’t be driving up to her place to pick the kids up and taking them to school, that’s her responsibility.

[sandi2]

When she said that “we shouldn’t change things because the kids were used to this routine.” I simply explained to her that with her moving out the kids and I needed to learn what the new normal would be. It wasn't necessary for her to come to the house, pick the kids up and take them to school because my new class schedule allowed me to do it. I really wasn't putting it out there as a consequence but just simply as a life if going to change, our family dynamic is going to change, and I’m not going to simply continue doing what we have been doing. Am I wrong in this line of thinking?

No, your line of thinking is not wrong, IMO. You gave her an explanation without really rubbing it in her face as much as a lot of H's would do. I think it was a good answer.

Here's the thing with a WW in an A, she wants everything that she likes to stay the same......as long as it is convenient for her. Family events, child care (school, overnights, weekends, holidays, etc.) scheduling, etc. But don't expect her to be consistent, even if it is according to her own scheduling. And, of course.....she still expects her H to pay for everything he did when she lived with him. Moving out, for her, had no bearing on you paying her expenses (in her mind). It is just so crazy.

Very few are able to reason with a WW, so just know what you need to do and stick to your plan. Be braced for any and all surprises she may pull. Get legal and financial advice and protect.....protect....protect.

Separation can work in a positive way for some. It gives you a break from a lot of stuff.

[25yearsmlc]

"I did my best today to dodge many attempts by my W to keep tabs on me today."

I don't get why you're doing this. You shouldn't have to "dodge" anything. Just do what you want to do. You are right that you don't have control over your W, but you can continue to do what you want to do for you.

THIS^^^^...good stuff.

FWIW, I don't think she's doing ANY of this to get a "rise" out of you. I think she's planning on leaving, and my question for you is, have you seen a lawyer?

Seeing a lawyer can be very empowering and it does NOT mean you must "Do" something..."anything".

You need do nothing. But I'd sure want to know my rights before I let my angry or cheating spouse decide who gets what.

Is she assuming her "list" is something you are now consenting to, b/c hey, 'silence is consent"? (And Sometimes it looks like that to a judge). If you fear losing your temper, then write something down to her, maybe like

"W, I don't want a divorce, though I agree that our old marriage should die, in order for us rebuild a better m. Even so, I won't stand in your way if you want to leave. However, Just so you know, I don't think your 'want' list is fair to me or the kids"...

Of course say this only iF you actually feel ^^that it's unfair, that is. Also, she's leaving you with the kids, correct?

If so, that is highly unusual. May I assume she knows SHE will need to pay some child support, to you?

My guess is, she doesn't know that. But a separation will actually show her things that no words can..

So no, all is not lost if she leaves. In some ways it'll be easier for you. Less tension for one. And later, your changes will be easier for her to notice b/c it's hard to see change when you interact on a daily basis.

Do you get what I'm saying?