25 has been helping all over the place. I read ALL her posts and she was here from time to time
Maybell, I realize you don't like me. I also believe you will think it is probably inflammatory.
I do want to clarify that 25 has NOT been on TO's threads until I believe around last Thursday. That is only 4 days ago...Where was she when help was needed months earlier? I would appreciate it if you are going to make such statements because you don't like me that you would make sure they are factual. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just for me personally, I find a lot of "balance" in the areas between 25's and JCred's posts here.
JCred, from where I sit, is focusing on behaviors and attitudes that are NOT guaranteed but DO tend to re-attract WAHs. (We've discussed this.) What I read from 25 here is how a person can look inside THEMSELVES to create healthy, sustainable changes - sustainable being the key word - to hopefully also help make their M healthy and sustainable.
I don't care what anyone says: Every person in this world has room for improvement. When a M breaks down, unless the WAS spouse is, for instance, a narcissist or an addict of some sort, BOTH spouses can accept SOME of the blame. It isn't fair, accurate or responsible to suggest that one spouse could have been perfect and the A would still happen. If that's the case, what hope does that give T0 - or any of us - for the future? Why, JCred, would you even be encouraging T0 to win her H back if you're also suggesting that he has such a character-flaw that he would cheat even if/when T0 was the perfect spouse?
This process MUST go further than re-attraction. And, sure, maybe, T0, you can worry about sustainable changes AFTER re-attracting H to your M. But I don't think so. THAT is part of the "double-prong" approach I followed and have offered in this case. It worked for me and others - like Starsky - and actually combines a lot of what JCred is saying (I'm reading through the lines and arrogance) AND what 25 is saying. Firm, confident, resolute, decisive ... all in love.
What does that look like to YOU?
To me, it looks like the idea I offered you the other night with the glass of wine and being light and breezy walking into the livingroom and offering for your H to join you for a drink *if he chose to* while you were catching up on shows. In that case, you would be showing him that his pouting was NOT going to bring you down but that you were still open to hang with him in a light and breezy kind of way. In other words, you shut the door on his negativity and open a door for possible positive interaction. (And, of course and obviously, when I offer my own words of wisdom, based on my own experience, you should take what you need and leave the rest. You're smart enough to decide what is useful for you and your situation and what is not.)
I don't think 25 is suggesting you throw yourself at your H and take all the blame. (I can tell from your responses back to 25 that you don't feel she's saying that, either.) Instead, I think she is encouraging you to do a lot of self-reflection to find ways you might be making *yourself* unhappy (and, as a result, making your H unhappy) ... and to work on fixing those things.
I might not agree with 25 or her approach/tact sometimes, but I absolutely agree with her that self-awareness and self-improvement is a cornerstone to a healthy M.
All that to say: I think there are nuggets of gold up there in those posts. *If* your H is back in an A, it is not going to help to go to MC. From everything I've read, it could actually hurt. He wouldn't fully participate and could even use his half-cocked participation as "punishment" later by saying, "See?!? I even tried MC, and that didn't work!! We're not meant to be!"
Why wouldn't you use an individual session with MC this week - especially since your MC seems awesome - to sit down, alone, with MC and say: "Here's what's going on. Help!" ??
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
I replied that I would work extra and we would figure it out. That family was more important than money and we would make it work like we always have.
He said he's tired of being stressed. That he needs money and he's tired of not having it and that he's going back there. He's made the decision
I replied I'm sorry that you have chosen a job over your family after you knew it was a deal breaker for our marriage. Money is just money but fsmily can't be replaced. The boys and I love you and woukd do anything for you but I can't be in a marriage where you are working there
Why, JCred, would you even be encouraging T0 to win her H back if you're also suggesting that he has such a character-flaw that he would cheat even if/when T0 was the perfect spouse?
Only because she wants to save the marriage. I believe her best chance was to do what I suggested and get him to come begging back, then before she took him back, insist he do the work.. You know, the kind of work that drives men to this site and takes them months and months to figure out what it is all about. If that could have been accomplished, there may have very well been a different result...
It really may not be over yet.. A lot depends on TO and what she does. It seems to me that others have been telling her to understand how HE feels. She is supposed to understand that he feels bad because she maybe hasn't given him appreciation or he feels bad because of her anger..... I just don't agree that is really the issue... I have been saying these things from my male point of view on what I have seen again and again and again work on men like this. I must say I really can't remember ever seeing a woman win a man back by trying over and over and over to find some communication key that I keep seeing from some of the women here.
I will say again.. It is fine by me if these women think they know more about us men than we do. You all keep talking about men and here I am telling you these things but you seem to be so busy wanting to attack back at what I say and are missing the message. I don't think you are really LISTENING to learn...
Fine.... I visit many of these threads of women on here... I see mostly women giving women advice on men to each other. Most of the men on here are still hurting and just learning. There really is only a handful of men that are through to the other side that I think understand where I come from...
Starsky is one.. A fine man with fantastic advice..... I irritate women. He has a great way of explaining it.
I don't really see too many other men that are past the trying to save their relationship stage that are truly ready to GIVE advice..
So that means there are far more women giving advice to women about men than men helping women..... I don't mean to be rude, I don't mean to be arrogant and I am not trying to be inflammatory.... I have stayed off of Maybell's thread because she says I caused more harm than good. I stay off of Claire's thread, Goat Girl's thread and a number of other women threads who from my perspective would make some drastic gains by hearing from a man like me..
I think a part of it is that some of them don't want to really hear the way it really is.. I don't know.. It seems to be mostly women giving advice to women about their men... I don't see a whole lot of success except when I see threads like yours Train.. Note that Starsky helped you.. Coincidence?
I know 25 got angry at me because I said that her husband never had an affair. Well, the fact is he didn't. He wanted her to go with him to Alaska. That's in her own threads. It really is totally different than finding out your man wants out and doesn't love you and has another woman.. than saying he wants to move to somewhere, still loves you, but you don't want to go..
It really isn't the same thing. Her answer could just as easily been to go with him. She says that he still loved her and wanted her...... Of course that doesn't take away that she was hurt and all the emotions she had, but it isn't the same. It just isn't. Am I not allowed that view? Do you think a person who has never been betrayed by infidelity actually really understands completely what that actually feels like?
I just think they are totally different. It doesn't mean any more than that. That doesn't mean I don't value some things 25 says. I do believe she is taking her situation and trying to force or push TO into believing since 25 had an anger issue, that it means TO has one and to dig deeper.. TO has admitted again and again she is angry.. We all get angry. She has good reason to be angry and today's news shows that even more... Let her deal with it in her own way. Anger is NOT always bad.... It hasn't hurt her situation at all. This guy is a moron and knows deep inside he is the main reason for her anger..
JCred, thank you for responding to that statement I made. I haven't read it yet, but I will and will get back to you.
T0, chin up, Buttercup!!! It's only the end when you say it's the end.
We have your back through this, Sweetheart. But YOU have to do the heavy-lifting.
If you want to be with your H - if you don't want a D - we are behind you to help you turn the ship around if it's possible. Yes, it's going to take your H honoring your non-negotiables. If he chooses to go to work for OW's dad - and since you've told him that is a non-negotiable deal-breaker for you - then he's just crossed a line that *you have told him* is a non-negotiable. If you re-negotiate that right now, you lose credibility with him. And that's one thing, IMO, you can't lose. You would also lose your own self-respect ... and any feelings of safety in your M.
I think you're making the right choice to make that a non-negotiable.
Stand firm, sister. This *WILL* blow up in your H's face. I just hope it happens before he actually takes that leap.
And I *do* believe your actions can influence H's decisions. But I don't think you're *responsible* for his decisions.
Hang tight, girl. I'm sure others will be on here for more advice and moral support soon. As for me? I'd need to gather my thoughts before I could tell you how *I*, personally, would respond.
Big hugs to you, mama. Big, big hugs.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
