T0324 continued part 2

[sandi2]

I agree with all JCred is telling you. It really helps to get the VP of a man in these things.

I have to hand it to you, b/c I doubt seriously I could do what you are doing. You are quite the lady!

[25yearsmlc]

[quote]You put him under a microscope and pretended to start fresh and forgive, when you had not done the work.

Actually she did do the work.

I respectfully disagree. She admits they reconciled too soon, quite often. She admits she was not ready. And though she implies it was only on HIS end that the "work" was needed, it's both.

He SHOULD be put under a microscope after all he did. She would be silly not to. This is a man who left his wife for a young 18 year old, swore and cussed at her and told her he hated her, spent thousands and thousands of dollars on vacations with an 18 year old, and SCREAMED that they were done. He treated his wife like crap the whole time, threw it in her face, stole her car and a number of other things.

None of this^^ does anything but rehash the past, keep score and fuel her anger, which T0234 knows is an underlying theme to their marital problems in the first place.

Jcred, your story is unfamiliar to me b/c you never posted one. You comment on others situations and never reveal or disclose your own or what worked or did not work for you. I'm not sure, but it seems a bit unfair to me.

T0, I did not defend your h or his actions. Why would I?

As you noted, I shared MY experiences and learned the hard way, what was NOT working for me.

This is not about who is right; it's about saving a marriage. That mandates forgiveness in amounts much larger than I ever expected.

T0, in time, I believe you'll see that you have on occasion become someone you do Not want to be;

so become a woman only a fool would leave. B/C down deep, isn't that who you really want to be?

The focus on the OW is misplaced, though understandable. T0, remember what you wanted to work on, before OW became the scapegoat for the issues?

And just FTR, you have said a lot about how your h wasn't earning enough money at his new (now old) job. I mean, you said a lot.

I cannot imagine hearing that and not feeling criticized.

If your h knows how to count, he knows what he's being paid. Clearly something at the job was "paying" him enough to want to stay. Based on your comments, my guess is they gave him a lot of kudos, so "words of affirmation" mean a great deal to him.

Maybe you can think about that^^ a bit more.


He SHOULD be under a microscope. He is lucky she took him back. He DID make promise after promise about what he needed to do to reconcile. This is HIS issue and HE is dropping the ball.

Then I guess she should appoint herself the judge and executioner and or just divorce him now. Oh wait, she wants to stay married...

There is a HUGE difference in welcoming with loving arms a man who works late and his wife is aware he does and a man who says he works late and doesn't call her to let her know and is acting distant and mysterious and basically again treating her like dirt....

The example of one behavioral mistake I gave T0, was hardly the reason for my 2 year separation, which is evident by my signature. And that was just a tiny example of how my anger was sabotaging my reconciliation efforts.

I know how hard this can get. I know very well.


I am telling you again TO.. The best way to handle this type of man is to do what I suggested. Of course you are angry. Who wouldn't be? You SHOULD be angry after what he put you through and then made promise after promise on how he was going to change. You have been MORE than willing to do your part. I think you know that. The key here is to do what works.


Yes do what works, but your Anger does not work. Repeating yourself, raising your voice, issuing ultimatums, threats, silent treatments, set ups for failure and mind reading do not work. I need to hear about your specific 180s and GAL b/c sometimes when we are going in many different directions, it's really good to go back to Div Busting basics.

Also - please remember the phrase, often cited here:

"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else,

is like lighting yourself on fire, to get smoke in their eyes."


When we think we "SHOULD be angry", we are really overlooks what our anger does to US. We think it's about what someone else deserves, so we let the poison into OUR bodies to make THEM sick.

Like me, I think you really don't realize how much your anger hurts you, your r's with your kids, maybe your work, (God forbid) and your marriage.

But in the long run, I'm talking mainly about you.

I'm not saying to let go of your anger, just b/c it'll help your marriage OR your h.

I'm telling you that your anger will consume you, more than anyone else.

And it'll affect your ability to be fully present for your children, who deserve you at your best.

Heck, YOU deserve you at your best. So, let's get back to the basics.

You want to work on what, exactly?

Also, can you please check out RETROVAILLE? It's a marriage retreat for marriages in crisis, usually on long weekends. Several others around here have attended it.

There, team couples share their stories (which are almost always far far worse than yours and that itself, is inspiring) and help you get through your issues. For the most part, There's no "public" sharing by participants, and each spouse has some time alone and some time when they must share with or listen to the other spouse but no one else is there to hear (or judge).


It's far more effective than weekly meetings and it allows for hashing thru a problem, to the solution,

instead of touching on something and then hoping to recall it all, the next week.

I have had a GREAT therapist, but even so, when I'd have a breakthrough or insight, suddenly my hour was up and I had to pick up the kids or go back to work.

It's really hard to recall everything that leads up to the "moment" the next week. It felt really fragmented to me. So a long weekend workshop or retreat just feels more..."Efficient" I guess.

For personal, i.e. individual work, I highly recommend "Essential Experience", (aka "EE") which is now mostly conducted in Philadelphia. I've been to many workshops for work projects and for personal growth over the years. By far, this one is the best and most profound. It's the most supportive safe environment for personal work and discovery, possible.

You will feel supported and validated and that helps you remember how to give that, as well. For those of us who have trouble recognizing when we are being given that support and validation, it also helps.

Several other DBers have attended EE, including PowerOfNow, AutumnLeaves, LuckyLuke, StubbornDyke, Inshock, and others I cannot recall the screen names of.

EE would allow you to work on and release a lot of pain and anger, and help heal your wounds.

I went some years ago, for me and my own career/balancing issues, and my dad's sudden death. But when I returned, my h said he could see such a difference in me in "just the way came off the plane, looking happy and light". (His words).

My h is not the "personal growth workshop" type of guy (he was an active duty Army officer at the time). But a few months after I returned, HE went to Essential Experience on his own.

Then he called me 2 days into it (when I'd started to wonder what he was dealing with!!!) to say that it was "the best gift" he'd "ever gotten in life". Years later, we went together to help other new participants.
Man oh man, ^^ that was powerful and bonding and deeply connecting. Along with when we had our first child, that's probably the closest I've felt to my h in over 30 years.

I can't say enough about Essential Experience, AND OR Retrovaille, or what they ultimately did for our marriage, but I promise you that you'd get a lot out of either or both and [i]all your r's would improve. They have to improve, when you do.

And since it would be for improving your life, your h's choices won't be nearly the biggest factor in whether you'll be happy in life.

Make sense?

[JCred]

I agree with all JCred is telling you. It really helps to get the VP of a man in these things.

I have to hand it to you, b/c I doubt seriously I could do what you are doing. You are quite the lady!

Thank you. Don't let this man fool you.

TO..
I wouldn't worry too much about your anger. It's totally understandable due to the circumstances and what he put you through. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and understand that. He understands it too. (and told you that)

It isn't your anger that is destroying anything right now. He knows he is being an idiot. He has dropped the ball.

It wasn't you that didn't do the work it was HIM.
Your mistake in reconciling wasn't that you weren't ready or didn't do the work.(and you DID do the WORK)
It was that you didn't make HIM do the work necessary. He still isn't doing the work he promised. That was the mistake.
I know you recognize that now.


Just follow the plan I showed you. We aren't being silent to punish so don't even let others put that in your head.

[Wonka]

Justin,

Just follow the plan I showed you.

I must say that your comment to TO about just following "the plan I showed you" negates the important perspectives other posters bring to this thread. I mean, yours is not just the only right way to go about it.

It is totally up to TO to absorb the varied perspectives offered up here and decide the best path for herself, for H, and the M.

That particular line came across borderline arrogant. I am sure it was not your intention at all...I wanted to bring it to your awareness.

TO, sorry for the hijack. Please do carry on, sweetie.

[25yearsmlc]

25 you pose some difficult questions and your post is quite eye opening to me. I am by no means perfect what so ever and I still have a lot to work on.

You are pretty spot on with how I feel right now and you're right. Who would want to come home to me? It hasn't been like this. Something changed. I can't pinpoint it. It was both of us but it sure did change and when he backed off I started getting resentful. Is he cheating? Does he miss OW? Is he lying about not being paid and saving up money for an apartment?


I think a lot of this^^ could have come, in time. But yeah, that ship has sailed and he's in your face now so NOW what? I hear you.

But a "woman only a fool would leave", would not worry about OW (let alone a teenager) and would not ask her h to confirm what he's already said.

Drop the topic of OW as it relates to the past.

If another issue flares up, that's a different matter. But drop the past. Absent proof of something new, the requirement of a past A is that it not remain in the present. That goes for both sides.

ow how to deal with that entirely... I feel like I walk on eggshells and I'm sure he does feel the same way.

It's great that you can empathize with him here^^. So is there any way you two, in a calm moment, could talk about this ^^ very thing and JUST this thing?

"Hey, I feel nervous around you and I bet you do as well. Got any ideas how we can put our dukes down and not worry so much that we are about to be hurt?"


the way I have tried to look at things is to cool off before I bring anything up. I guess I just thought I would have the easy way out.

yeah, I know. I thought getting back in the same home was "IT"....uh, nope. You would be incorrect and so was I.

But cooling off first, very smart.


I honestly (and stupidly) thought ... He loves me. He made a mistake.


I believe both of those things (and I don't feel stupid!)

I have changed --- I won't ask about finances. He realizes what he has. Everything is going to be great. And it was -- until it wasn't. That's the honest truth.


Unlike more couples than you realize, you have something they don't. You HAVE had some great moments, some good times, feelings of soul mate bff and real closeness with your h.

I mean, that's how it sounds. If so, that's something to remember. Hold onto that. Memories will resurface in both of you when the dust settles and no one fears a sudden attack.

And it is not his fault my grandmother is sick. I just meant he is so out of touch- he loves my grandma and is so close to her and right now it doesn't matter to him.

^^ Hey that is some mind reading, big time. And if you notice, the mind reading is exclusively negative when it comes to him. You don't credit him with positive healthy thoughts, pretty much ever.

Gotta watch out for that. But maybe there is pain in there and some shame and discomfort and hurt. My gut says he thinks you are very disappointed in him and he fears you'll never get past it. Heck, you don't seem to know how and at times you sound as if you don't want to get past anything.

SO, it sukks to be him. You feel rejected but I promise you, he does too.

As far as GAL - he wasn't at fault for that. I wasn't blaming it on him I was just meaning my back up babysitter had fallen through and he wasn't home yet so I would be staying home.

And you are right. I am very angry. How do I let go of that?

Great question. I struggled with this for a long time. Same with forgiveness. "Sure, okay I forgive...uh, HOW? What's it look like??" B/c T0, I need to tell you that I never saw forgiveness growing up. Did you?

I literally did not know what it looked like. Nor did I know how NOT to be angry once I already was angry. I could try and see their point of view, but sometimes I simply could not. Truly I still don't understand WHY my h made the choices he made. I can only promise you even now, I do not believe there is anything in the world short of finding the cure for cancer, that could get me to move away from my family for 2 years.

I came to realize that seeing the past in the same way, or understanding and agreeing with someone else's choices in the past, is Not needed. Also not possible.

We needed to agree on our future, "From this day forward", however. So I chose to turn my gaze forward and to let go of the past, including attempts at "getting" it.


I am angry that he is going to go back to work at his ex bosss's where OW is and that his job is his number one priority (his words).


well, I think You have made his job (income) and time spent there, the priority b/c it's closely tied to his worth as a h, as a mate to you, tied to the move you two made

, **(which I think he made b/c you wanted to make the move so you could be near your family. But all he has heard are complaints about his not making the same amount of money as before. I don't think he's hearing much thanks for making the move to be near your family...indeed what I've read here, seems like you see his closeness with your family, as a character flaw or dependency in him, and maybe he senses the disappointment).

Remember what HE may be getting from that boss (words of affirmation, HIS love language, etc)


I am angry that I was his number one and he couldn't keep his hands off me to now it's the exact opposite.

= it was once so great and now it's not. Okay let's figure out how to get BACK to where you were lucky enough to have had it...right? I mean, don't hold the GOOD stuff against him too.


I am angry that whenever we do talk it is my fault. Well you did this and you did that - he can't own one thing he's done. He brings up the past yet I'm not supposed to bring up his past (which I have not brought up OW since October with the exception of the job discussion)


THIS^^ is a good specific example of a boundary you both need.

How about "H, since we both need to stay in the present, I'm working on that. Please don't bring up MY past mistakes & I'll drop yours. Now, BACK to the issue at hand...."


Really my different behavior is finances - that was his problem with me - finances and not appreciating him.

my take on your sitch, based solely on your posts here, is that you didn't appreciate him b/c you mostly discussed (here) his shortcomings.

But is the "lack of appreciation" really just about finances? I'm asking for real.

The OW isn't always about a problem within the marriage; sometimes it's just a problem in the spouse. But in your situation, you had sep before she came along and you knew there were issues. Where else might he have had unmet needs?

Bear with me, b/c I'm Not making this all about how "HE was so unhappy and You were at fault" blah blah blah. NO, not at all. I'm simply pointing you in yet another direction for your own work b/c you cannot do his. You can only work on you.




I guess the But part is difficult to understand via Internet. I do get what you're saying. Yes he said he loved me and kissed me. Its his behavior is off. He's hiding his phone and being super distant and he was doing this before our argument.


address what you can, specifically. If he reassures you, then drop it. Remember to act as if you are woman only a fool would leave and believe him, until you can't.

You know, til there is proof of a problem, don't create one. Be the better choice and that behavior, if you pull it off, tends to make you both see you in a better light. That can't hurt.

My behavior towards him hadn't changed. I would try to hold his hand, like he used to initiate and he doesn't reciprocate.

This^^ sounds as if it hurts you. Can you tell him in "bite sized pieces" the things you need from him that won't overwhelm or sound like a grievance list?

This isn't about babying him so much as giving feedback that's not easy to give or take, in small pieces. It's about being most effective.

Also, I'm not suggesting he has no work to do. He does. I'm just trying to steer you to what you can do most about you; you.

He makes me feel like


maybe it's semantics, but try to own how you react to something rather than say "he makes me feel like"... and just let him know HOW you "feel when..."

otherwise he can say you "make him feel guilty/inadequate", etc. b/c you ask him questions , etc

I'm an annoyance. I tried to tell him ... I need you to be more affectionate because I was told I need to clearly communicate my needs but that doesn't work for H.

How about "I love the way you touch/ kiss/hug me" AND OR, "well if you're going to touch me like THAT, then we need to go to a hotel"...

just a suggestion and a small twist of how you see it and say it




I did it for weeks and nothing changed. I should changed my plan of attack but I didn't. I got angry and resentful and the wheels started turning of why isn't he doing this. I got more angry and pushed him away further.

Stop the cycle, or it won't stop.

I hope I am making sense. I am trying to touch on all your points but it's difficult on the phone. So if I miss something please let me know.

I basically just want to know what to do.


I Know you do. And I wish I had a "manual" for you. I can tell you that I made mistakes along the way. I don't even count my first year of DBing as that, b/c I just fumed SO MUCH for so long. I had 2 sisters who were divorced and both had been left by their h's.

My older sister was the opposite of my younger sister. The older one, "G", was a giver in their m, raised the 3 kids mostly herself and worked full time the whole time they were married. She put her h thru law school. He had at least 2 OWs and left her to be single after 22 years of marriage and the 3 kids and she got no alimony b/c hey, she earned money!

She handled it with such grace. I cannot recall her complaining much although she was deeply wounded and heartbroken. Just like my younger sister.

She eventually remarried and I can honestly say she's happier now than she ever could have been, with her first h. But in contrast, my younger sister revolved around her h, she was needy and clingy and insatiable.

When he left, she got stuck in her victimhood and called me and my other sisters every single day, for 2 years, feeling sad and or angry. Though 20 years have passed since then, Her divorce was the defining moment of her life.

So when I began to obsess about WHY my h was leaving his family for a JOB. (Yeah I know what you mean about not being the priority).
Asking "How can he do this???" "WHY is he feeling/doing/this? What is he thinking/feeling/planning/doing?? ---

my older sister stopped me and told me who I sounded like (the younger one),

that was a splash of cold water in my face. So, whatever it takes to snap yourself out of things, like turning it over to God if you are a believer, DO.

I used to take showers for privacy (didn't want my kids to think I was nuts)

So that I could think/say and hear myself say "God, I turn my pain/anger over to You" or "I turn my marriage over to You" b/c it was too much for me to carry.

And it calmed me. So whatever you can do to let go of your anger, do it.

Marianne Williamson writes a lot about forgiveness and anger in her many books. I found her books helpful on that topic, though some find her too "new agey".
See what you think. "Return to Love" and "Handling Fear/Anger" (or something like that) are two I found really good for this.



We have spent the whole day together. I struggle with distancing myself and wanting to do nice things for him but it would be pursuing.

I'd hire a DB coach to best assess whether he needs reassurances to feel safe with you OR

to keep the distance thing going. I'm usually a fan of distance but can't say here b/c I don't know what his perceptions are. it SEEMS as if he is on the fence b/c HE says You won't let go of the past.

So my concern is that your distance not come off as coldness or anger or resentment. And I am hard pressed to support someone withholding warmth or doing nice things.

Maybe if you can balance it with an uber PMA and friendly non pursuit, like 'hey I'm warm and fuzzy over here but not getting in your space", etc...???

Not sure...again, hiring a DB coach cannot hurt.

AND Please consider Retrovaille or that other workshop I suggested (Essential Experience) b/c I think you are ripe for change.


I can forgive. I thought I had forgiven. I actually have forgiven what happened but I am struggling with right now.

I believe forgiveness is a process. It consists of steps. You first decide TO forgive and then most of us ask, "how??" And to me that is when it gets really hard. I talked to my T and did exercises and talked to my priest as well. Find some support for that b/c it's a life skill and yet we learn so little about it growing up.


I still feel like he should be trying...--

Well, show him how. At least then you'll know you learned.

Where on earth do I go from here

And as far as Mc. I don't know if I'm going to bring it up. I really don't think he will go. But I did not intend on living in the past. Our last few sessions we didn't talk about the A as much as we talked about how did we get that point so we can avoid it in the future.

some of it will sound a lot like rehashing the past. Most mc's focus on it and that's why it often sets couples back.

How many discussions do you NEED to have (that involve him), to know what to avoid?

Also, he was supposed to be planning weekly date nights , that went away. Everything stopped in November. I really don't know why.

What if, for now,

you really let go of the "he was supposed/should be" list, and ask if he minds it if YOU plan SOME?

Plan ONE, and then promise yourself you will ENJOY it and NOT Measure anything anytime.

or not. But there are many other resources out there for you to explore. I think you'll be glad you did.

Good luck!

[T384]

Okay I want to make sure I cover everything.

Gan- I am going to C this Wednesday I haven't told H about it and I'm still mulling it over if I even will

Sandi - you know I love you

Wonka- no hijack... I appreciate everyone's involvement regardless of what it's for!

JCred - you know I always appreciate your input. Especially from a males perspective. I am going to continue on the path we have discussed but I will be tweaking some and would always appreciate your input so don't forget about me now! For my tweaking read my response to 25.

And 25 - I am going to make a separate post to you but I do definitely want to clarify something for everyone. And this is not to come off rude in anyway what so ever BUT (lol) with that being said I have NOT and do NOT bring up that H makes less money. Just because I post something here does not mean it is necessarily brought up. I give bits of information to help people understand both of our situations.

I have never brought up what he doesn't make or does make. I do not get into that because that was a big problem he had with me before was finances. He felt I was never going to be happy or that he would never make enough and that I always bitched about money. Hardly the fact --- now that we do not have a joint account he sees what I went through. Oh I don't have the money for this or I don't have the money for that. Before he knew I would cover everything and make sure enough money was in the account and never paid attention to what he was spending... So now it's a reality check. And an even bigger reality check because he blew threw about 20 grand being away. I did not acquire any debt as I have said over and over. For those well versed on my situation I worked 2 jobs (no I'm not asking for a medal) but while he was out of town with OW. I was doing that taking care of our boys and running this household alone.

YES we have moved passed that. I do not bring any of that up. But I do say all of that to kind of touch some sort of reality. He did come back in and my family all welcomed him with open arms. Nobody has mentioned anything of the sort of anything while he was gone. I have no brought up OW since the end of sept or beginning of October. And even before that we really didn't discuss it. We've discussed all of it an amount that I can count on less than 2 hands if not 1.

I'm not patting myself on the back nor am I clearing myself of any faults but I am ready and willing to take fault and move on and ready to do the work and make a DAILY effort to show him he is the man that I love. I need affection. I need adult time. I need to be talked to like I matter. Not just a Ya, an okay, what, I don't care, uh huh response every time. I am Feeling so unappreciated and undervalued. I feel like after everything that has happened he should be fighting for me still. Or not even fighting for me but just being a husband That loves his wife

I do not say these things in an angry way. It is the internet so it's difficult to ascertain. I do love him but I am sad. I am sad that he busted his ass in the beginning to now this. Did we both contribute to this? ABSOLUTELY. Are we both busting our butt to fix it? Nope.

I will respond more I just wanted to clarify as much as I could regarding the finance stuff

[JCred]

It really helps to get the VP of a man in these things.

"Hey, I feel nervous around you and I bet you do as well. Got any ideas how we can put our dukes down and not worry so much that we are about to be hurt?"

My viewpoint of this as man when I need space and treated her like crap and then begged to come back...

Oh no, her we go.. Another relationship talk. Who has their dukes up? I just want to come home and unwind and the minute I have some peace.. Here we go...

But maybe there is pain in there and some shame and discomfort and hurt. My gut says he thinks you are very disappointed in him and he fears you'll never get past it. Heck, you don't seem to know how and at times you sound as if you don't want to get past anything.

My take as a man if I had done what he did... I would hope that I did feel shame. I would hope that I did show remorse and was embarrassed. I would know that I DID disappoint my wife. I would hope I would say that she did NOTHING to cause this and it was NOT in any way her fault. From my reading of TO's threads it is the exact opposite of not wanting to get past anything. I don't read one word of that in her posts. I believe she wants nothing more than to get past this whole thing. As a man I would hope I would have followed through on my numerous promises to her and not blame her in any way shape of form. I would want to have empathy over and over for the destruction that I caused. I would hope I would understand that she would NEVER want me to work for that boss again. How could I have done that to her? I am lucky to have her back. She works hard. Two jobs while I was out spending thousands of dollars. I stole money from her. I stole her vehicle and then wouldn't give it back. I threatened to call the cops on her.. I wonder how she can ever forgive me for the idiot I was. What a woman... And here I am again thinking she nags and wants my everything.. How dare her. She should just forgive and forget. After all, she is a nag and is only worried about money.. How dare she treat me like that... She should just be happy to see me when I come home 3 hours late with not even texting or letting her know. How dare she be angry... She sure has an anger problem...And also needs to learn about forgiveness. I hope she comes around soon because all this is causing me is stress.

SO, it sukks to be him. You feel rejected but I promise you, he does too.

As a man.. Yes.. it sukks to be me.. I do feel rejected. How dare she make this about her again... I just want to come home and do nothing because I have a lot of stress. Yes, I feel rejected. She should shape up and show me more love and forgive me and just let me do what I want. I have nothing. I can't even understand after I had an affair with my ex boss's 18 year old daughter why in the world that would bother her. Just get over it for God's sake. He treated me well and at least appreciated me.. (and his daughter did too.)(boy do I miss that.. I didn't have anybody needing me to be responsible.. The good ole days... I sure miss them...

Drop the topic of OW as it relates to the past.

as a man...Yea.. drop that topic. I should already be forgiven for that. How dare you keep throwing it in my face.
You should be looking at my good points.. (what are they again?) I wish you would just treat me nice and leave me alone to my peace and quiet. I am tired after work. I am stressed. I feel rejected by you.... Boy, she sure is an angry person and I certainly don't know why....

well, I think You have made his job (income) and time spent there, the priority b/c it's closely tied to his worth as a h, as a mate to you, tied to the move you two made

, **(which I think he made b/c you wanted to make the move so you could be near your family. But all he has heard are complaints about his not making the same amount of money as before. I don't think he's hearing much thanks for making the move to be near your family...indeed what I've read here, seems like you see his closeness with your family, as a character flaw or dependency in him, and maybe he senses the disappointment).

Remember what HE may be getting from that boss (words of affirmation, HIS love language, etc)

As a man... See? That's the same thing I have been telling you. You don't appreciate me. I mean just because I am now acting distant and texting all the time on my phone and didn't follow through on my promises to help you feel a little more secure.. So see, I have been telling you this for a long time.. You're disappointed in me and I certainly don't know why. My boss knows my love language.(and so does his daughter).. My boss was meeting my needs and you don't understand why I don't want to go back there? You sure have a lot of work to do. You need to learn about forgiveness and such. I have been telling you these same things for years.. You need to start listening to me more when others are telling you the same thing.

How about "H, since we both need to stay in the present, I'm working on that. Please don't bring up MY past mistakes & I'll drop yours. Now, BACK to the issue at hand...."

As a man who acted like her husband....
FINE by me..I have been saying that all along... Ok. Let's drop another relationship talk and go watch some football. I hate these relationship talks.. Why are you always wanting to talk about "the relationship".. Back to the "issues" at hand???? Here we go again.. Another issue. Let's go to counseling.. Let's talk more. Let's not get angry.. God I just want to watch some football and have some peace.. What next will she bring up. Always a talk about us in some way shape of form. Will it ever stop? God [b]I'm back home and she should be happy to have a man like me. I don't have any idea why she could be angry or want more from me..

[/b]

my take on your sitch, based solely on your posts here, is that you didn't appreciate him b/c you mostly discussed (here) his shortcomings.

As a man who treated her like he did and hasn't followed through on my promises... YES to this... You never appreciated me. All you talk about is my shortcomings. I have been telling you this for years... How dare you want me to keep showing you that I am so very sorry for what I did. How dare you be angry at ME... (what were my strengths again?) Please make me feel good about myself and forget your needs. This is about me.. Me, me, me.. You have an anger problem and I certainly don't know why. I know I have nothing to do with it. It is YOUR issue. You just don't understand me and the stress I have in my life. I just want to be left alone. I told you I would change so why can't you just drop it when I give you so little? Why? What is wrong with you woman?

This^^ sounds as if it hurts you. Can you tell him in "bite sized pieces" the things you need from him that won't overwhelm or sound like a grievance list?

This isn't about babying him so much as giving feedback that's not easy to give or take, in small pieces. It's about being most effective.

Also, I'm not suggesting he has no work to do. He does. I'm just trying to steer you to what you can do most about you; you.

As a man who has treated her like he has..

YES, YES... Quit overwhelming me.. I have SO much stress.. I mean I work and that should be enough for you. Let me alone and you work on you... THANK GOD... I sure hope she turns around here.... NO, not even bit size pieces.. Let's have NO more relationship talks. It always turns into a relationship talk.. No bit size pieces.. I don't want to talk about the relationship at ALL, let alone a bit size piece... You just work on you and quit criticizing me.. Start appreciating me..
Forget that I promised to be the best man that I could be and would do anything in my power to make things right.. You just need to find a way to be happy with me giving little and me getting what I want when I want. Then things will be peaceful around here... I just want to be left alone. I have a lot of stress and am tired when I get home. And PLEASE don't mention that I never mentioned being tired or stressed when I was running around the country with an 18 year old and my boss for 5 months and spending all our money (and a lot of yours too, but hey who's counting).. Let's just forget that. I should be able to give you little, and get a lot and not have to keep making an effort. My boss sure appreciated me.. I want to go back there to work. All you care about is money.

[T384]

And also for clarity -

We moved across the state in 2011 with a newborn and toddler for his job. He got a great opportunity so I left all family and moved 4 hours away. He HATED it there. He was MISERABLE. That's why we moved back to our home here in 2012.

All of our moves have been for him and his jobs. The theme with him is something that really bothers me. He is so hot and cold. In the beginning everything is great then it isn't. For example - he bought me a beautiful SUV for Christmas in 2012. I love it and was so surprised... It was when things were really great between us (not because of money) but it was a great time - we had moved back home and he was happy = us happy. Now the truck is a POS (his words) waste of money etc so we are selling it. I know that's a stupid example but it's the same with everything.

This job he's at now was great his old job sucked. Now it's the opposite. Even if I would be okay with him going back to thay job he would hate it in time also.

Oh and OW was before we separated. Phone bills show they started texting all day and night starting in December of 2013. He only said that they did talk inappropriately (her saying he deserved better than me, our boys deserved better, her parents went through divorce and she was happier having them D than M) he did say he probably would have never left if he wasn't talking to her and her family wasn't so supportive of him (he lived there for 4-5months with OW at her parents)

Hope this helps. 25 I still have more to say.

Justin - I know it wasn't meant to but your post made me giggle

[JCred]

Justin - I know it wasn't meant to but your post made me giggle smile

Smart woman........ Don't get sidetracked here........

You're doing just fine. HE IS dropping the ball here and not
you.

Again.. As a man... I think he NEEDS what I suggested to you more than you know. If I did what he did to a woman I said I loved I would MOST CERTAINLY understand her being not only a little angry, but even a lot angry... I probably would walk all over her if she wasn't.......

My worry would be when she STOPPED being angry and suddenly wasn't saying much of anything. Suddenly going out on her own and not asking ANYTHING from me.....

It certainly wouldn't turn me around if you kept trying harder to meet my needs whether it be in one big chunk or bit size pieces. Especially if I was acting like he has been acting. I know what 25 says worked for her, but you need to understand that her husband always kept loving her and said he loved her. He didn't have an affair. He wanted her to be with him, she just didn't want to go to Alaska with him.

Just because she had an anger issue doesn't mean you have one just because you are angry. We all get angry. That doesn't mean we have an anger issue. Sometimes people on here can only see through the eyes of what they went through and think it must applie to others because it was once an issue with them. You will see this again and again on here. You will get advice from what they had an issue with. Be careful with that.
Know who you are. Remember, these people are not trained professionals and could very well be giving you a diagnosis that is completely wrong. I think that is the case here. Just my opinion.

I don't see an anger problem with you. You have admitted you are angry. As a man, I feel it is totally reasonable and a non issue.

The issue is that showing your anger to him isn't working.
That's all it is. Nothing more. Doesn't mean it is an issue. Just means that showing your anger isn't working. Just accept it for that...

Do what works.. Silence will work here.. In your own world..
Don't show anger (even if angry) You can't show it because he needs to feel you distancing emotionally. When he senses you pulling away, he will slowly start to get curious. This then makes a man look within himself........

You're fine.... Great woman and a good catch. I think he secretly knows that. I believe we can pull him back. I believe you are just DYING to show him some appreciation. You just need to be patient and know how and when to time your appreciation to a man. I wouldn't recommend it right now. I told you what I highly recommend.. As a man.. I know these things....If I were you, I would listen to what a man thinks and knows about men in these situations....

Of course, you are free to choose what you do. I don't want to be seen as arrogant. My concern is that sometimes on these threads there is too much advice from too many people and all it does is muddy the water for the person seeking it. That's why I am telling you that you can't take what I am telling you and mix it with something else.

Glad I could make you laugh.. I thought you might like it..

[JCred]

By the way...

Wouldn't be a bad idea to do a little clothes shopping for a new outfit for that big night out on Friday.. I wouldn't mention it to him though. Make sure you are working on staying fit and suddenly concerned about your appearance more than normal when you go out...

Just sayin....... as a man........