Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.
Anyhow, at one point Denver could NOT understand how his w would not return to the marriage. He had owned his significant role in the demise of the marriage and had made some big changes.
She had an OM, but Denver got past that due to his own issues. He felt that b/c he had finally made the changes she had long wanted, he could not wrap his brain around why she didn't just ditch the OM and come back. Then another woman, a WAW, wrote to Denver.
See if you can imagine Your wife writing some or all or any of what this woman wrote to Denver...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated - does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality. And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell. _________________________
Thank you for this 25. This makes it very clear for me. I have a long way to go for my W to feel like an M with me would be as good as the life she now feels hopeful for.
What I'm setting out to do tonight then... I just do it right and keep doing it every time I see her. Humble and calm myself and treat her like a W should be treated... with respect. That's all.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
What I'm setting out to do tonight then... I just do it right and keep doing it every time I see her. Humble and calm myself and treat her like a W should be treated... with respect. That's all.
Yeah! This is exactly what we wish to convey to you without being buddy-buddy with W. You got this!
HP, What 25 posted I have seen before. It was nice to read it again especially tonight.
I feel it hit you like it me and will help us both out. You more than myself because you still have contact with your W. Mine also doesn't live with me but I have extremely little contact with her.
I have hope for your Sitch and if you stay strong I think you will get the result you truly desire.
Wonka is correct You got this!!
Me 47/W 34 T 16 M 13 No kids BD 6/2013 W asked that I move out 6/2013 I moved back and W is upset with this 12/2013 separate beds not much talking Served D Complaint 5/2014 W moved out 9/27/2014
Thank you everyone again for your incredible advice and support. I'm back from the basketball game. I did do quiet dignity and self confidence and showed common courtesy at the game.
Shaved my head... trimmed the beard... ice cold shower... dressed nice.
Got to the game with S12 and my PMA. W was sitting at a table with her GF, the mom of another boy on the team.
Said a really warm hello to them both. W gave me a tense smile. Kept walking with S12 and his teammates to the gym. The boys were having a good time.
Found a seat on the bleachers. There was space next to me. Later heard Ws happy voice maybe a couple rows directly behind me. She sat with her mom friends. No problem.
Another nice mom sat next to me instead and talked pleasantly with me the entire game. That was nice. PMA remained high throughout.
My boy's team lost badly. The better players on the team hounded the ball. My boy had the ball passed to him one time and he bobbled it. He played good defense... but became very frustrated and stopped trying toward the end.
While I was talking with another father... I saw W rush by to get to S12. She was trying to console him but looked really irritated. He walked away from her.
She turned to me and said... "did you get my text."
"What about?"
"No one was passing him the ball!"
(I later saw she had texted me that during the game.)
And then she went on about that. The coach, the husband of her good friend, came up and she complained more to him. I did miss a chance to back her up there.
She collected a visibly sad S12 in an irritated huff and hurried out the gym. I followed. Got to the door, opened it for her and S12. She said thanks, see you boys later, and immediately hurried away into the night.
On our drive home, S12 started to complain about how terrible everything is. Then he sat very quiet and sad. I asked him to talk to me. He said no. I asked him if he wanted to talk to mom. He said no.
I pulled over and texted W... "He's very sad."
That's where I messed up. I should have just got him back to the condo and just talked man to man. IC told me I should tell W when S12 is having an issue b/c she's his mom and, if I tell her later, she'll be screaming why didn't you call me.
A minute later, W calls. I answer. She sounds tense. Not at all friendly. She says she tried to call S12 but no answer (he didn't bring his phone). She tells me to let her speak with him.
I say, "It's your mom."
He takes the phone and hangs up. Says... "I want to be alone."
Second mistake... I do not immediately and clearly tell him to not hang up on his mom.
She immediately calls back. I say... "He wants to be alone."
"I'm his mother! Put him on the phone!"
I give him the phone.
And she lectures him. Talks and talks and talks. At one point, S12 takes the phone from his ear and puts it in his lap. She keeps talking into air in her tense voice. He tries to explain how he's feeling and how he now dislikes basketball but she talks over him.
He says he'd rather be on a winning team than a team where everyone wins.
And she keeps talking.
Then he yells into the phone... "My team [censored]!" and hangs up again.
I talk to comfort him. It's just the first game and the team needs practice. It'll get better.
W calls again. "what happened?"
"He hung up on you."
Big mistake.
She tells me to give him the phone. I do.
And she starts screaming at him.
I take the phone and I calmly say... "W please stop screaming at S12."
She keeps screaming. I repeat myself.
She stops and apologizes in a very tense and still loud voice and says S12 can't hang up on me. I agree. She asks to apologize to S12. I give him the phone.
She starts talking again.
And he starts screaming at her.
"Shut up! Shut up! I can't call you my mom!"
I take the phone and calmly say say "S12's upset... you're upset. Let me get him to the condo to cool down and I'll call you later." I hang up.
We pull up to the condo and she calls again. I answer. She's still loud. Telling me to put S12 on the phone. I calmly repeat again let us get upstairs. Silence... then she hangs up on me.
On the elevator she calls again. I answer. She's calmer. She apologizes again for screaming at S12. That he should stay with me b/c she sees now that he hates her. That he feels that he can say shut up to her now b/c he must've seen me do it a thousand times (I've never said that to her ever but I understand she means I have been quietly angry with her around him.) That the heater is broken at her aunt's house and it's so cold there. (what!?!) She starts to cry. That this was not how this transition was supposed to go. That S12 and I have every right to hate her and be angry with her. That she's sorry again. She asks to please let her speak with S12 to apologize.
I'm really at my end. I stayed calm and strong through the whole thing. I would have never expected her to scream at her son who was already sad about everything.
I give him the phone. It seemed like they had a good talk.
In the condo, S12 brightens. He goes to take a shower. He reads his comics.
I think about W. How she must feel right now.
I text her... "Are you alright?"
After a long bit... "No"
Then after a long bit... "Sorry for yelling. I won't bother you or him tomorrow. Have a good night."
After a long bit I reply... "Good night W."
S12 is out of the shower and in good spirits on his computer. I think about W. I ask him to please say good night to his mom.
He calls on my phone. (His was dead.) She doesn't answer.
He calls again. I hear her answer. He says a nice good night. They talk. A good short talk.
I text her... "He's fine now. Are you better?"
"Yes thanks!" So no she's not.
"OK W. Take care."
"Means a lot to me that he called. Thanks." That was real.
"You're welcome W. Good night."
She doesn't reply.
....
S12 was hurting after the game. In our old life... my W would have warmly encouraged him and loved him and bought him some sour candy. I should have just done that for my boy myself. Lesson learned this time.
Again I wanted show W what was really happening. I sent one text. I knew she would call. I thought she would have warmly encouraged him. I did not expect all this but I made it happen. I showed my W too much disrespect in anger and now like father like son.
My fault.
Last edited by HPoirot; 01/10/1505:38 AM.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.
Anyhow, at one point Denver could NOT understand how his w would not return to the marriage. He had owned his significant role in the demise of the marriage and had made some big changes.
She had an OM, but Denver got past that due to his own issues. He felt that b/c he had finally made the changes she had long wanted, he could not wrap his brain around why she didn't just ditch the OM and come back.
Hello 25. I wanted to thank you again for pointing me to the Denver_2010 thread. I have started reading it from the beginning and do see similarities on how hostile his W was. She said many of the same things my W says... she gave her life to me but I never showed her she was the one. How she felt entitled to OM as I already made her feel single.
I'm learning a lot and will work harder to be more humble, not angry, more empathic and calm and caring.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Sounds like you did great with your PMA at the game, but sorry for the rough go afterwards. Glad your S was feeling more upbeat at the end of the night. Hang in there!
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
Great post from Jack_Three_Beans on the Denver_2010 thread that helps define LRT...
Quote:
Quote:
As the fantasy of her WAW plan comes crashing down, I am protecting her. But again, if I don't take some action to protect her, then I am the same a*s she left in the first place.
Tough choice and good point.
My on-line gaming addiction is what lead to my neglect of my wife. I ignored her. Later when I LRTed, I ignored her as well. How was it different?
On the surface? If you just look at the ignoring part...nothing.
But, I no longer played computer games. I worked out, when I was around her prior to the LRT I was as fun, and kind as I could be, I GALed, I proved I wanted her but did't need her, I showed her many of my changes. When I LRTed, I took all of that away. All of it. I interacted strictly on a business level, regarding our boys and our bills. I was not mean, I was not nice.
Previous to this, I ignored her because of my failing. Afterwards, I ignored her because of hers. In the middle I showed her that I had changed.
Make sense?
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
More excellent wisdom from the Denver_2010 thread...
Quote:
THE TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION
It is that bargaining process between who you are. YOUR character. VS the EGO or self preservation.
Someone is doing things to you... so naturally you blame them and ask yourself why would I do this for them?
The tempatation is to leave the process...to leave your decision to stand. To leave or try to control your spouse. To attach outcomes to your decision to stand.
This is the step I was missing!
IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.
You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"
In the beginning we want answers.
Why did this happen?
How could they do this? Who am I? What do I believe in? What do my vows mean to me? Why do I hurt?
And the BIG ONE...
What is it about ME that made them leave?
IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.
At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...
As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...
It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.
Then you start to look inside....
Then you start to see who YOU are...
Then you realize that this is part of YOU
What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...
You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...
It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.
It is about YOU.
I have been trying to figure out what is the source of my wanting to escape, my anxiousness, my dread my fear.
And it is the WHAT IF?
the conditions I place on my life.
What IF W doesn't come back THEN? What IF I stand and W doesn't want M THEN? What IF I make this decision THEN What?
If I place conditions/exceptions to my life then I compromise my life.
When I took my vows did I mean: I will love you all the days of my life, BUT if you get so scared and lose your way then I won't?
It's those damn BUTs! I am stuck because of BUTs
I am paralyzed because of BUTs.
I know what I need to kill now.
When I get up with fear and anxiousness it's because of the fear of what may happen. I want to escape from that fear. The self doubt that creates it.
If you walk out into the world everyday with your truth then there is only...
What was (and you have learned from it) What is (Your truth) What is to come (through living your truth)
There is no regret.
No second guessing.
No doubt.
The only way to fail is to fail yourself.
Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.
An essential step.
An understanding.
An awakening of sorts.
I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.
I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.
We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors
We want our M back
We want our spouse to want us back
We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option
We want to ease our own pain
We want our own self esteem back
We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior
We want ________ because we get _________ in return.
We STAND on these principles.
We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.
From family, friends and
from ourselves.
Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.
It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.
We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.
So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.
As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.
Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.
Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.
We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.
It is then that the MIRACLE happens.
Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout
of green punches through...
This growth is something new and it
is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it
For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before
it took root.
But it did take root and
it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.
The miracle is the love for yourself.
You are no longer the choices your spouse makes
You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not
You are no longer the failures you see in yourself
You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.
Then you a FREE
Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.
This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.
Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.
What is means to love.
What I am speaking of really is love.
This is a choice.
As we move through this journey it is a process of self discovery. The LBS starts out with a lot of hurt and pain and self doubt.
I have already written about this transition from standing out of wanting answers and pain- to doing it as a choice for you.
To get to this point you must have detached completely and also to get here some may decide to go black as you have suggested Time.
I did have to do that for a time.
The choice to love is really to put yourself at risk and we have suffered the greatest pain of that risk in the betrayal that was returned.
When I speak of the light going on and off I mean that those are the conditions. ANY conditions. ANY behaviors that we have let play out from our own fears and weaknesses. These are the things we find in OURSELVES that we want to change. That we MUST change to be who we want to be.
Who we want to be is the LIGHT I speak of. It must be constant and it must be consistent. It cannot be contingent on some suffering that cannot be endured. It cannot be contingent on some action or non-action of your spouse.
To love (as we know it) is to suffer until you see what love is. This is so much part of who I am that it cannot be separated.
Love is the absence of suffering. But that absence of suffering comes from your OWN choice not because:
your spouse decided to come back or decided to be nice to you Or wasn't mean to you Or agreed with you or stopped seeing OP or ANY F@CKING THING.
It is YOUR choice
That is the light that shines.
That is the miracle of which I speak
If you can get to THAT place then you see that your spouse is on their journey and you love them enough to be committed to their growth.
That growth means you step out of the way. You completely let go with love.
If they call you.
Why would you not answer that call?
Only if you still suffer. If you suffer then you are not there yet.
My W will continue to suffer and be in pain. I will no longer be part of that. I choose rather to be part of the solution.
For me that means love of the most extraordinary variety.
For me that means to be the man I am now becoming.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
HP, On some level we all want things to be like they were so we try and create situations that will make those memories reoccur. You said yourself that wife used to comfort S12, that was then and this is now. You cannot force the reactions out of her nor have expectations that they will be the same as they always have been. You are simply setting yourself up for disappointment.
Figure out how to help your S12 on your own, does not sound to me like you are going to get a great deal of support in that and if she keeps yelling at him you will eventually have to step in and put yourself in a very bad position. If she decides at some point to change her attitude and understand that your S12 needs her to be a loving model instead of a $%@# that is on her.
