This W of yours iseems very confused, lost and guilty. Probably ashamed and angry at the same time.
Fear resonates from you. Fear of doing anything for fear of upsetting W.
MCS your children are first in your life and should be in Ws too.
There is so much in your post but there is a veneer of fear. Fear of further loss, but W is already lost to you, she is lost to herself and nothing you can do will change that. You are going to have to let W be lost. You are going to be the strong one. It looks to me that you can not hurt W any more than she is doing this to herself.
W has to find herself as a mother and to herself. Everything you write shows inconsistency. MCS you will have to be the Source of action for your children, W has made decisions which appear illogical to you but they are not illogical to W.
Please be aware you are not taking control of W, in any way. You are creating structure for your children, boundaries through which you can operate.
Held firm with gentle loving tones. strong and independent of thought for these precious bundles that are part of you. Vanilla
Last edited by Vanilla; 01/12/1508:03 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Well, so much for thinking that I was finally getting detached.
Kids come back and tell me that OM was over to watch the football game. His favorite team, of course. W their biggest fan too, even though she didn't even like football when we were together. Kids say mom bought football cupcakes, so I say, 'was it a party?' Nope, just Mr. OM.
Well, guess who I saw during the same time at the store? OM's GF shopping with their kid and I guess her mom. She didn't see me, but gotta love small towns...
So, W told me that R with OM was over and he told GF about what was happening....sure. It probably went like this....... _________________ "Hey, GF. I'm gonna head out to my OW, (who's just my really good friend now.) Remember, I told you that you have nothing to worry about. Why don't you head out shopping with the kid."
"No problem, OM. I've got this, wow you're such a good catch. I'm glad that things didn't work out for you and MCS's W." _________________
And W claimed that I destroyed her self esteem?!? How about knowing getting used and being okay with it. Anyway, I can't change what she's doing, although I'm feeling really sad for her that she left her marriage and still feels the need to live in a lie. One lie she tried to escape with me, one still there for his family. Its a sad, sad world.
What I'm struggling with is the kids. Is it fair to set the boundary that OM is not around the kids? She has the kids for a whole 2 days and can't seem to spend it just with them. This is on the heels of her saying that "MCS, the kids are first in my life right now...." B.S.
She's past my limit with this, I guess I'll ask MC what's the best approach to address it.
Last edited by MCS; 01/13/1512:19 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Sorry MCS, it sounds like it got on your PMA. I, however, don't really see the problem again. She wants to S, right? She's not willing to work on the M, right? So what does it matter how she spends her time?
Also, here's a revelation gathered from everyone's threads around here: WAS lie about A and OP. Don't ever, ever expect the truth. I'm serious: you will not get it. Don't ask her a question about OM. Don't hope to gather info from her. This is one of the things I learnt in the last four months. Even though my W lied about her A five years ago, I still believed I could get the truth from her in these crucial moments of our R. Nope. Look at Card29, vasapro, Complex... In the last few days or weeks, they finally uncovered months of lies. It's just how it works with an A. It's not about you, not even your W.
Originally Posted By: MCS
What I'm struggling with is the kids. Is it fair to set the boundary that OM is not around the kids? She has the kids for a whole 2 days and can't seem to spend it just with them. This is on the heels of her saying that "MCS, the kids are first in my life right now...." B.S.
Tell us exactly how you will enforce this boundary? Blow up when you hear that OM was there? You have no control over that and the reality is that OM is not toxic to the kids. Just because you don't like what you think is going on between OM and your W doesn't mean that she's a bad parent. Frankly, I see absolutely no problem with them having a little football watching party with the kids around. Also, the advice I heard around here is that you can't prevent OM from meeting the kids, so let go.
We still don't know exactly what was your W's problem with you, but I'm starting to wonder if it's that your reactions are unpredictable (which would refer to her 'emotional safety' if I recall). Very often, when I read the latest that has happened, I fail to understand your reaction to them. You want things done a certain way, rationalize that it's obviously better even though there are valid differing viewpoints (week on/off comes to mind) and feel the need to confront WAW of be indignant about it. Perhaps it's not bad fait, it's not lower standards, it's not bad people, it's just different perspectives. It might just be me, but it can be something to think about.
I actually thought of you when I read this article: The subtle art of not giving a f... I'm not done reading it, but it looks relevant and the timing is right. Hope it's useful.
I hope I'm not too brutal. We're on your side.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
No offense taken. That's part of this board is to examine the faults that we have. I would actually say that if there was a problem, it was the opposite of what you are saying. I was too predictable. I have always had a pretty straight and narrow, calculated life. Everything I did was planned. My W was more of a free spirit than I was, more spontaneous. However, she had the planner's attitude also, just not as much as me. So, that's where we complemented each other. She pushed me out of my comfort zone and into a more spontaneous life and I was the one that pushed into the realm of analyze everything before we would make a decision. So, it worked good for the first couple years, but as we got older; the spontaneity was reduced. The once we had kids, it was reduced even further. At that point, I think I became more comfortable and 'settled' and she may have felt like something was missing.
A good example of this was vacations. She would love to go on random weekend vacations. Something I would never do myself, but would go along for it. Aruba, next week? Sure, whatever you want. Yeah, as we settled all of these things went away in our lives, especially once the kids arrived.
So, conflict was this way also. I always had a very similar approach to solving it....logic and then some more logic. Looking back, since I didn't have much negative stuff in my past; I associated that with my planning aspect of my personality. I used to say, you always had to be responsible for decisions you made and deal with the consequences. I used that to look at other people also, part of what Vanilla addressed with the judgmental part. However, this approach was a pretty immature way of looking at life.
So, that's my struggle now and when I look back. I think my wife was upset about the predictability that our life had become. She yearned for more, but when she would try to address it with me, the logic would come out and at times thwart her desires. In my eyes, that was our 20's to get all of the spontaneity out and now we were in our 30's with a family it was time to settle. I thought we were hitting an equal balance with this, but obviously not.
So, you see what appears to be my unpredictability; but that's centered around me trying to "plan" and "analyze" situations that logic cannot apply to. To couple with this, is the seemingly 180 that my wife has had with regards to how 'we' used to parent. That's the crux of the problem. A part of me feels like she fell into how I wanted to parent our kids and may have just been following along and now that's she's away from me is doing her own thing. Then I over analyze this on these forums to see if this is something that is acceptable or not. But its all based on my preconceived notion of what's acceptable to me....does that make sense?
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Also, I agree that WAS's continue to lie about the R and OM to suit their needs. My issue is, like I said the lack of trust and since its there, I'm having trouble assessing and separating the lack of trust in my W, her A and our M from the lack of trust about the kids. Its crazy, I know.
I still can't wrap my head around you and my differing opinions about having our kids exposed to our sitchs; you seem okay with it and take it in strides; but if I were in your position, I think I would have gone crazy by now. We both love our kids more than anything and that's what I'm saying, I think my struggles are based on my own personal principles and where "I" felt the principles were raising our kids. My struggle is I'm not sure what the W's principles are right now and whether things she says to me in person are genuine to how she's acting. IDK.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Have you seen the movie 'Office Space' that article reminded me of that movie.
So this is the money quote in that article (censored of course) :
Because when we give too many "bleeps", when we choose to give a "bleep" about everything, then we feel as though we are perpetually entitled to feel comfortable and happy at all times, that’s when life "bleeps" us.
Yep, that's MCS in a nutshell. That's my problem right now.
I gave a "bleep" about everything and now that something that is worth giving a "bleep," I'm not sure what other "bleeps" to give a "bleep" about.
Literally, true story, the night of BD, I was telling W how fortunate and comfortable our life was and how we achieved this by our hardwork and planning. I thought we were in a good place at that time......nope, only one of us was...
Well, maybe thats why she feels she is emotionally unsafe with me. Its obvious I wasn't quite in tune with her emotions at that point. Then when BD comes a couple hours later, instant breakdown for MCS. Yeah, proverbial life upside down.
Last edited by MCS; 01/13/1503:09 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
So, sitting here thinking about it. Yep, don't care. It was a football game. Like you said Mozzo, I'm disappointed because I'm still trying to hold on to trusting what she says. This is not her, she lost and the lies are showing me that she's in pain and can't face some of these thjngs herself. She's angry, which is typical right now.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
No offense taken. That's part of this board is to examine the faults that we have. I would actually say that if there was a problem, it was the opposite of what you are saying. I was too predictable.
Thanks for the clarification. Ironically, it made me feel more similar to you than ever. We had a bit of the same dynamic at home. But that's not what I was referring to. I'm referring to what you call "logic" and appears to be very obvious to you. I'm suggesting that you are fairly rigid about your own "logic", which is sometimes just an opinion, like any other. I've a friend like this. He's an engineer, full of logic. But sometimes, you can just see him paint himself in a corner and then you know he won't change his mind because he convinced himself that his way is right. He's known for that, although he doesn't recognize it himself. (are you an engineer?)
So that's what I mean, clumsily, when I used the word "unpredictable". You express some logic, which often surprises me, and then state it as obvious and right. To use our example, you think week on/week off is bad, but I still don't understand your reasons. You only explained that your IC said it depends. If that's also what you tell your W, rather than come up with arguments, then I can understand that she feels cornered.
Originally Posted By: MCS
I still can't wrap my head around you and my differing opinions about having our kids exposed to our sitchs; you seem okay with it and take it in strides; but if I were in your position, I think I would have gone crazy by now. We both love our kids more than anything and that's what I'm saying, I think my struggles are based on my own personal principles and where "I" felt the principles were raising our kids. My struggle is I'm not sure what the W's principles are right now and whether things she says to me in person are genuine to how she's acting. IDK.
Can you perhaps explain what's the harm caused to the kids from seeing OM? Describe it from the point of view of say, a child psychologist or a social worker, that would monitor the development of your kids all the way into adulthood. What will be messed up about them because they are exposed to OM? Also, would you describe how you'd go about it with the kids if you were to meet another women after a D?
I'm not asking this to confront you, but to help you articulate your thoughts on this. I'm no vet, so this is not advice, but support and food for thought.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Yep, you got me. Engineer through and through. Interestingly, so is my W.
Sorry, if the things that I state seem like I'm stating them as fact that they are bad, that's not my intention. I'm really only comparing them to how it appeared we were raising our kids prior to BD. I had said a few posts ago, if you read those things out of context, no big deal. However, if you apply it to how we were parenting; its just very different than we were. Doesn't mean its bad, just different and not like how I thought W would parent which causes some concern for me along with the other changes from the W.
Take something small that your W may see as important for the daily activities with your kids and then 180 it. You have daughters, if during your M wife was always making sure that their hair was combed whenever they would leave the house and then BD and people that know her start saying Mozza, saw your W and kids and their hair was a mess. What's up with that, is everything okay? It would cause you some concern, probably.
That's my problem. All these little things add up to some of my frustration,I don't really know why. I guess its cause I'm not sure whats 'really' important or what to let go....just like that article says.
__________________
So my hard OM stand is not for today, but for the future. I have a co-worker who's parents split when she was 5. Right after our S happened, I was talking with her about her parents D. I know both of them. She told me.
"MCS, I don't remember a whole lot about my parents D. I remember they all had it coordinated. We went on a trip with my mom for the weekend, she mentioned something to us kids and when we came back dad's stuff was gone. Then when I was a teenager, I was sitting in my room one day and it all clicked in my head. Mom and Dad got D and Mr. OM (new stepdad) was around right afterwards. No one ever told me what happened, and it took 10 years but I then knew what happened."
She's a great girl, well adjusted. She's actually part of my comfort that the kids will be just fine if we get D, but that story hit home. I said to myself to try and shelter the kids as much as I can from some of these realities that they don't understand now, but will at some point in their life.
Also, if you read HP's thread a while back about some of the things in his childhood. His dad did great job of sheltering the kids from what was really going on that it was ~30 years and it still took HP's dad telling him what happened.
With an OM in the picture, we are reducing the opportunity to provide that insight if/when it is need in our child's life. We are exposing them now and it will be on their own accord that they will figure it out, good or bad.
Hey, this is just my opinion and that's it. I'm not trying to influence your decisions at all, we all have different sitchs.
____________
Lastly, the week on/ week off. That's a personal preference that I don't feel comfortable about it. I'm not sure if I said it, but the MC said research shows there's no ideal schedule. Its all situational, the negative thing for kids is when the parents don't get along.
My issue with the whole schedule thing in general is that its all or nothing for her; she won't discuss anything else other than "MCS says yes or MCS is withholding the kids from me seeing them" Its been no in-between or conversation about it. That's all, I want to have the conversation and agree together. This isn't a win/loss thing; but should be a compromise.
Last edited by MCS; 01/13/1504:55 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Sorry, didn't answer the question about me and an OW in the future and how to expose the kids.
Basically, right now for me, no exposure to the kids until after D is finalized. That may change if I'm in a R, IDK.
So for the age of the kids, I think that my R would have to be pretty serious for me to expose the kids to it. I haven't thought too much about it, but I'd try to prevent multiple people having a role in their lives as a pseudo-stepmom. If they were older and understood relationships, marriages and break-ups maybe. However, I would try to prevent any connection of the kids to an OW until the point that I was comfortable that the relationship may go somewhere. No comparison to my current sitch, but I would hate for even a hint of the same feelings being brought up if/when that relationship with OW would dissolve.
Again, haven't thought about it much; just brainstorming. Like I said, I'm a pretty conservative guy when it comes to these types of things. Its just how I feel about it.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
