Busting this Divorce - 90 Days NC #5

[MCS]

HP,

Its been a tough night for you, so if you're spent, do this tomorrow. Not that I have any clue what I'm doing in this whole process, but I have an exercise for you.

I was reading your post here. Go back and read it yourself and do one of those old English Class assignments. For each paragraph, what's the topic, who's the protagonist and who's the antagonist. Do you see a change?

What happened to HP to make them switch and why?


Look, this is a Godwink moment for you and W. Let it be that. Look what you both did tonight. You talked about how you feel and didn't get angry, upset or anything....and guess what, it looks like you both felt the same way. Why? There was a common bond. Its a little bit of what I pray every night that I can communicate with W enough to establish that bond. For some reason it hasn't happened in our sitch, but at first it seemed to happen in yours.....and then your last couple paragraphs......what happened?

[Calibri]

About the IC... I was recommending the IC for S12 to see, not for W to see. It surprised me that W made an appointment to see her. I didn't recognize it was a mistake to tell W I was seeing an IC.

I don't think it's a mistake that you're telling her you're seeing someone. It was a mistake to tell her who. I'm surprised your therapist agreed to see her. Most would avoid seeing a separated spouse of a client due to a conflict of interest. At least around here.

And on the her schedules yes I feel frustrated and at the same time vindicated when they fail. I know that is wrong. I do hate that S12 is subjected to her planning. At the same time... he wants to be with his mom. I quoted "stability" yes in anger regarding how she's going about all this. I did not like the businesslike way she described what was happening to our son in her VM.

And had she not been business like, likely you would be criticizing her for not taking it seriously. Or being "super mom"

And yes I was too happy S12 showed his mom his anger and I did leak snark and satisfaction all over that last post b/c I was focused on my W getting taught a hard painful lesson instead of where it should always be... on my son crying for help.

When things have a chance to settle back in, you need to talk to you IC and explore this more. Very very concerning.

Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like.

Well, no surprise there. Can you give an example of what you didn't like? And why you didn't like it?

She talked a lot about us being more civil. Her example was when she came to the condo door. S12 wanted her to come inside and have dinner. She told him she couldn't b/c she had to go back to the school for a function instead of "your dad F*cking hates me right now." She told him one day she and me would be friends again. I didn't say anything to that.

Well, she's right isn't she? You won't let her in the condo, you won't talk to her, you pawn off messages through S 12.........

Had S12 come to you, after this afternoon and said, "I really would like mom to have dinner with us." What would you have done? Be completely honest.

I didn't say hardly anything while she talked the whole time. Some very long pauses. Then she asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about or say. After a long pause I said no, I'm going to get off the phone. She said how much she appreciated talking with me and she hopes we can do it again. She wants to talk and it meant a lot to her that we got to talk. She thanked me for talking to her. I hung up.

Seriously? Seriously!?! So if I'm reading this correctly, you call your W because your son is making serious statements that need immediate attention, because the two of you are separated and what not, and you let her do all the talking but essentially pat yourself on the back because you talked to her on the phone and didn't disagree with what she had to say? Please, please tell me you had more I put or it was a more productive conversation than "you hardly said anything and there were long pauses."

I'm angry that my W didn't even think of saying lets get together and work something out.

Well how the hell could she? You won't let her in the front door physically or emotionally or anything. You've made it abundantly clear how displeased you are with her. Yeah, she could've said "let's work on this" but you know, the road home isn't exactly paved and smooth right now.

That I couldn't ask her to come home with us and let's all heal together.

So why can't you?

One thing she said is... she knows what S12 is going through from the divorces her mom went through. She knows how painful this is. But not enough to come heal your family? She called me a great father. Not enough. Not enough to come here right now and be with her son?

Hi pot, meet the kettle. You're so fixated on what your wife is doing wrong, that you fail to look at the contributions you've made as well. You're angry that she let y'all leave. You're angry that she's not reacting the way you feel she would react. You're angry and you keep feeding the monster.

I don't understand.

I think w could come in and throw herself on a sword to apologize and you'd be pissed that she stained your carpet.

You both need to put aside your [censored] and take your son and his thoughts seriously. I don't understand why throughout this whole post, your focus STILL remains on how W disappoints you, how she's not handling the situation the way you would, and you gloss over S12. Why aren't we hearing How you're feeling about hearing what your son said? How you can improve. How you can out aside your differences to work with your W. How you can put aside your anger until you can work on it.

That's what I don't understand. It's your thread, you can post whatever you want, but when does it become HP's thoughts and reflections and not HP rants about his wife.


You have a tough road ahead, and I hope that you, your W and s12 can navigate it together.

[HPoirot]

On not understanding... she told S12 that... even though she acts happy with him... she cried 4 times today. That she's really just acting.

I can be a better me. I don't know if calling her tonight was right. She left a text hanging about talking to S12s teacher. I called and she got to talk about it. She cries. She appreciates talking to me and it means so much to her. She apologizes for calling. She loves and worries for her son while she makes decisions that hurt him and hurt her. Her decisions are not about me so I shouldn't take them personally.

I want to give up. As I was writing that line about my family being in drama hell... I was thinking that exact thought you wrote Wonka... am I causing this? I know neglected my W and my M. But now. I'm fighting this so I'm causing this drama. These pages and pages of drama. All me right? If I just sit here like a monk and let this all slide off me... maybe she would share what she's feeling with me... maybe my son would feel more hopeful... maybe she would feel safe enough to connect with me?

Or am I just wet noodle again b/c my W who doesn't love me said how much she appreciated talking with me. When I didn't even say anything.

I want to give up. I want to give up on this person.

She just sent me an email. "Here's something that may be helpful for us both to remember when helping our boy navigate this new world," she says. A bulleted list of ways to help kids in a separation. First bullet... accept the separation.

I don't know how not to be angry with this.

I don't know how to sit here and feel content.

I can't tell her how I feel about getting this email from her under these circumstances. I just let it go.

This new world.

[claire7]

HP,

I know this is so hard.

Accepting your situation does not mean agreeing with it.

I think about this a lot. I know someone whose partner died when they got hit by a car while walking across the street. She was holding his hand at the time.

I have a friend whose husband was diagnosed with cancer and died, leaving her with two young girls.

If your W had died, you would feel grief...and anger. But you would have to accept the reality of your situation.

This is the same thing. Accept the reality of your situation. Stop fighting it, and stop fighting her.

The way you have been acting... do you think you are being someone only a fool would leave? Are you giving her reasons to see you as her best option?

This may (or may not) be the hardest thing you'll ever do. You can do it.

[Wonka]

HP,

Believe it or not, you DO have influence on this process through your words and actions (and inaction). First and foremost important step is to find your own center. Then the rest will flow much easily...I didn't say that it will be easy on you.

My son is my priority but yes in my anger and focus on my hurt I did make serious mistakes today.

Work through that anger...let it go. Continue holding onto it is like drinking poison and expecting W to die. Nope, it's only hurting you.

I did leave a message for the IC specifically saying what my son said. I will follow-up in the morning.

I'm glad to hear this. Stay on top of this issue and be sure to collaborate with W on this. United front to ensure that S11's emotional needs are addressed in healthy ways.

I did see I was too happy to see S12 say what he wanted to say to W.

Why were you "too happy" in this scenario? What did you hope to gain by this?

About S12's telling me his problem with the schedule and his basketball game... I did take your advice and decide to go to his game and told him so. Please know that I do listen very closely to you 25 and Wonka. I could not have made it this far without you. I have moments of doubt like my post saying I wouldn't go. I've never missed one of his games and I won't start now.

As I've said previously, always do the right thing by your son. ALWAYS.

I did not like the businesslike way she described what was happening to our son in her VM.

Why not? How/What did you 'expect' W to "behave" on the phone?

And yes I was too happy S12 showed his mom his anger and I did leak snark and satisfaction all over that last post b/c I was focused on my W getting taught a hard painful lesson instead of where it should always be... on my son crying for help.

You keep getting in the way of the process every single time you "desire" for W to 'learn the consequences" of her choices. How's that working out for ya?!! Not very well at all. Get the f@ck out of the way and life will take care of the "lesson" for her. Not your job.

When he came in, he was wearing a new pair of expensive basketball sneakers his mom bought him.

You have an odd way of noticing things that have no bearing on e sitch such as "dirty laundry" and "expensive sneakers." Why's that, HP?

He said they talked he felt better about his mom.

It's good to hear. Now, don't you dare to try and pump S11 for more info on what transpired between them. Not your business.

Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like. I just let her talk.

I sense that you're deliberately leaving out the contents of what she said because you don't want to hear them or it contradicts your own narrative. Which is which, HP?

She said she knows she's the bad parent and didn't try to convince S12 otherwise. That he's right to feel everything he feels. That she thinks therapy will help him.

She's right in that S11 has every perfect right those feelings. I am glad to see that she's on board with S11 seeing a therapist. I did when my parents were divorcing when I was 11. I helped me tremendously.

She talked a lot about us being more civil. Her example was when she came to the condo door. S12 wanted her to come inside and have dinner. She told him she couldn't b/c she had to go back to the school for a function instead of "your dad F*cking hates me right now." She told him one day she and me would be friends again. I didn't say anything to that.

Why not? I think it would have been humbling to own your part in this and say that you wish to be civil as well. How hard is that??

She also said... S12 told her he didn't like how she was acting overly happy... her supermom thing. He said she should be acting how things really are. She thought she was doing him a favor. Instead, he said that's why he preferred being around me. I was listening to him and how he felt and wasn't acting like nothing is wrong. She said she would do better to listen to him instead of trying to fix him.

Like!! She's now aware of how S11 really feels and I sense that she will be making more of an effort in that direction.

I didn't say hardly anything while she talked the whole time. Some very long pauses. Then she asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about or say. After a long pause I said no, I'm going to get off the phone. She said how much she appreciated talking with me and she hopes we can do it again. She wants to talk and it meant a lot to her that we got to talk. She thanked me for talking to her. I hung up.

It would have helped to say something like this:

W, I am glad we had this conversation about S11 even if it was difficult for all of us. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me and I know it cannot be easy for you at all. I will keep you posted on S11's appointment with IC. I'll be at the ball game. Take care.

I'm angry that my W didn't even think of saying lets get together and work something out. That I couldn't ask her to come home with us and let's all heal together. That our solutions to this horrible problem could be so different. Like so many other people here... why make this so hard. Is what you're trying to do making you happy now?

One thing she said is... she knows what S12 is going through from the divorces her mom went through. She knows how painful this is. But not enough to come heal your family? She called me a great father. Not enough. Not enough to come here right now and be with her son?

I don't understand.

You need to understand that a WAW will not feel this way as long as she has negative views and feelings about you and the M. It will take a long time for her to get to a positive frame of mind. Right now, she isn't feeling too good about the M because it is more of the same.

It's on you to change the dynamic. Through your actions, behaviors, words, and patterns.

Do you now see how your behaviors repulse W and not drawing her in?

[MCS]

HP,

Its been a tough night, may just want to chill for the evening with Son....re-address these things tomorrow.
___________
Now, I'm seeing HP from a couple threads ago....not the angry HP, but the beating himself up HP. You've grown a lot, we can all see the changes. However, because you've grown; doesn't mean your done growing. Have you looked at the stages of Grief?

1) denial
2) anger
3) bargaining
4) depression
5) acceptance

We are all going through this and its not linear. What you're feeling in HP is growth and managing grief at the same time. That's okay, we're not keeping score about HP, don't keep score yourself.

Just like claire said, acceptance is not agreeing. However, it means you are aware of where you are today.

Remember the quote you had a few pages ago from Band of Brothers? That was acceptance. It didn't mean they were going to live or die, but that quote was just telling them to accept the situation they are in.

I got a corny wooden saying last weekend that seemed very relevant for me right now. It said:

"Expect nothing, Appreciate Everything" Appreciate what you had tonight with W, expect nothing from it or from her. You guys made progress.

[HPoirot]

Hello claire, Calibri, and MCS. S12 is in bed now.

MCS, you're talking about the conversation I had with W on the phone? I don't know what happened. I'm writing what I'm feeling.

Hello claire. Those are very sobering examples and yes death is horrible. Somehow, at least for me, death, maybe b/c it's an irreversible one time event, is easier to accept than continuing betrayal that can be changed. And yes that is the issue that I stick on... the thing that I put in the way of doing something as simple as being cordial to another human being that I've known for 20 years. That is what wakes me up at 3:30 in the morning. That is the problem I have to solve or get over minute to minute.

If that was simply gone... this would be different for me. Forgiveness I see clearly now is hard for me in the absence of remorse. I'm sure that means it's not forgiveness. So, I don't accept someone who has wronged me without seeing remorse or at least seeing them pay. That is the character flaw I'm not so well dealing with.

So Calibri yes, when my W is describing how S12 is feeling... she should be upset b/c it's upsetting. Her acting businesslike or like nothing is wrong or like supermom is what bothers me b/c there's no remorse showing for what she's doing.

If she asked to come in the condo for dinner like nothing was wrong... I'd throw her the hell out. But if she hung her head and showed remorse... then sure have some lasagne.

My W is having an A and, while sad and conflicted and maybe torn, is not remorseful. Is accepting sending her son to therapy and hearing him say terrible things to her and being a part time parent. She's accepting thinking that her H hates her and let him take her son and leave her home. Is accepting schlepping her son for hours in traffic to school after he didn't get a good nights sleep b/c crying baby. Is accepting potentially ruining her and her family's financial future. Is accepting that she has no home when there is a home right here with people who want her here.

But I guess one person here... me... doesn't want her enough to act cordial for 2 minutes. Doesn't want her enough to forgive her or even act like he forgives her for the length of a basketball game. Or he doesn't have enough faith to believe that doing so will get him what he wants. To not be rejected by his W for someone else.

Ouch.

[MCS]

HP,

I was talking about when you were saying it's all your fault and you wanted to give up. I see tonight's discussion with W as a good thing.

This is tough, I know. My W won't talk to me at all, including anything about the kids unless we're in mediation. It's been this way for 5 months. One 1 sentence email "Kids were good, no issues" per week, no text, no phone, 45 minutes a week at mediation is all we have.

I guess I'm a little jealous that you had a conversation that found common ground with your W and it seemed productive. I've been wishing for that. You should take that conversation in itself as fantastic progress.

[Calibri]

Or he doesn't have enough faith to believe that doing so will get him what he wants. To not be rejected by his W for someone else.

Ouch.

I came back to check in on you tonight.

I can relate entirely to your first sentence. All of us here have some sort of Hope, or faith that it could work out. Or rather we want it to work out. So, so much. Lately, I've been thinking about faith and the unknown and how it can apply to our individually sitch. We never know what's going to happen in life. When we first met our spouses, we didn't know if it would work out, but we wanted to try, because there was something there. We took a leap of faith, despite not knowing the end result. Now when things have done a 180 on us (and not in a good way) we are wary. We don't know if doing the work will get us what we want. We are overwhelmed. You are overwhelmed. I am overwhelmed. Many of us are overwhelmed.

I'm going to give you a hug for the second sentence. Because at the end of the day, that hurts. So very much.

[Karma12]

HP,

When I went through my first divorce in 1993 my husband was behaving much like you very angry and bitter. Your son is stuck between you and your wife. He loves you both and probably feels torn in two. He has no other siblings to share the burden. He wants you both to be happy. He will feel guilty showing he is happy to see his Mom around you and visa versa.

Your son is crying out right now. He needs the grown ups in his life to grow up. When my youngest daughter was 14 she was diagnosed with cancer Ewing sarcoma. My ex husband and I came together as her parents. We let go of all the issues between us and we were there for our daughter night and day 24/7 for over a year. Thank God she is a Cancer survivor and now 25 yrs old.

I know you are hurting and putting up an angry front. Go for a run, buy a punching bag, anything to get the anger out in a healthy way. It's poison. Your son only has one childhood. You only have one life. I work in a hospital and I help many breath their last breath. We get to wake up tomorrow. Be thankful. Peace to you.