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A Message from Michele
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Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517414
12/15/14 03:07 PM
12/15/14 03:07 PM
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Vapo Offline
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Card,

we have not had a convo yet, but you are one of my watched posters and I often check in on you. I found it funny how a lot of us have great advice when it comes to other people's, and when it comes to our own situations we lack the courage to follow our own advice.

So my suggestion is, if you stepped in someone else's shoes, what would your advice be?

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Vapo] #2517428
12/15/14 03:52 PM
12/15/14 03:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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Very good points, something I've thought about several times. We're detached from each other's sitches, so we can think more clearly.

Trying to look at my sitch from a 3rd person perspective, I should continue to (try to) detach and talk when she wants to talk. She texted me late last night and we exchanged a few more thoughts, then she texted me again this morning. At the end of the convo today, she thanked me for finally being honest, that if nothing else, she's glad it makes more sense, but that "the basis of how I feel and what I want haven't changed". I asked her to just take her time, that I didn't expect her to change her mind overnight. I expressed my hope for our possibilities, that wasn't bad between us just because that's the way it was, that the roots of all of our problems are fixable. She said she has thought about it for months but will continue to think.

I don't really know what all of this new information will do for her. For now I know I do not want to give up hope. We have had more R talk in the last 24 hours than we had in the previous 6 months, so it's a lot for her to digest. I am praying for her heart to soften.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517472
12/15/14 06:08 PM
12/15/14 06:08 PM
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Posts: 1,532
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Mozza Offline
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This is a very interesting development. Your honesty might work in your favor. I had not realized your W was unaware of what had happened.

Originally Posted By: Card29
I asked her to just take her time, that I didn't expect her to change her mind overnight. I expressed my hope for our possibilities, that wasn't bad between us just because that's the way it was, that the roots of all of our problems are fixable. She said she has thought about it for months but will continue to think.
You realize this is pursuing, right? The risk is that as soon as she opens up just a little, she'll see you rush in and clams up. And yes, that's rushing in. IMO, it would be better not to show anything when she says those things. Give her the impression (1) that it's safe to open up, that you won't immediately think that she wants to reconcile; (2) that she needs to go further if she wants to make you react.

See the advice of the vets around here: let her come to all these conclusions herself. She knows were you stand VERY WELL. If ever she doubts that you want back together, it will work in your favor, though I think she's months out of thinking so.


M39 D6 D3 (at S)
S 2014-09
D 2016-09

"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Mozza] #2517501
12/15/14 07:41 PM
12/15/14 07:41 PM
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Card29 Offline OP
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I hear you, Mozza. I do think I overdid it some yesterday, but I felt like it might help that she have some food for thought. I will let her think. She just reiterated to me that she hasn't changed her mind. I'm not discouraged too much by that, though, because I know it will take time for this new information to have a real effect, if it does at all. If she wants to initiate R talk, I'll talk. Otherwise, back to DB-style communication.

Last edited by Card29; 12/15/14 07:47 PM.

Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517627
12/16/14 02:36 AM
12/16/14 02:36 AM
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Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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Earlier today, for the first time since BD, she asked me how I think she "failed" as a wife. First she asked me if I thought she was a good wife. I think she was feeling insecure after the porn confession. I told her that she's a wonderful wife, told her about some of my favorite qualities of hers. But then she asked for specifics of things she could have done better. I told her that she took her frustrations out on me for a long time, even ones that had nothing to do with me, and that drove me away for her for a long time. She agreed. I didn't mention anything else, didn't want to pile on at once. Others things include meeting my shortcomings or failures with anger and/or shaming. I think I could have overcome my porn habit a long time ago if she had met me with love on the topic. Instead she just expressed her disgust. I was already ashamed of it. More shame wasn't going to fix it. I also think that's why my accountability groups never helped. Those didn't pull me away from porn with love. They just made me want to avoid even more shame. And eventually, the shame of confessing slip-ups grew larger than the shame of actually looking at porn. So the lies began.

Then I was so ashamed after viewing porn, I didn't feel like I deserved to sleep in bed with my wife, so I would sleep on the couch. That robbed us of our only intimate connection time. We used to talk for hours in bed, no TV, no phones. That disappeared. Then when when we were close, or we did have sex, the intimacy kept dwindling. It turned into "let's get this over with" for her, it turned into "why can't we do this more often??" for me. She told me today she felt violated during sex for much of our marriage, which hurt to hear. not because I forced of pressured her, just because there was no intimacy.

I pray everynight that WAW's heart softens, because I truly believe we can build a new marriage. Look how much I've been able to piece together, and we've barely had more than a couple of convos on the topic. I just imagine what we could do if she actually committed, we were able to go to Retrouvaille or something, go to a good couples counselor. Maybe someday

Tonight was more bitter than sweet. Last night in my house. D2 is with me. It was her first time seeing it without furniture (I have two air mattresses, that's it). She was most confused when we went into her room and her bed was disassembled. She was a little upset. It bothered me because I realized she had slept in her first bed for the last time already (items an infant-through-2 bed, convertible). Eventually I had to leave the room from her and cry for a few seconds. The rest of the night has been good, though. Watched Classic grinch again (she knows the song now), now she's sleeping next to me on one of the air mattresses.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517636
12/16/14 03:15 AM
12/16/14 03:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Wonka Offline
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Card,

I think you and W had a very honest exchange. This is to be applauded for opening up for the pair of you.

Originally Posted By: Card
Then I was so ashamed after viewing porn, I didn't feel like I deserved to sleep in bed with my wife, so I would sleep on the couch. That robbed us of our only intimate connection time. We used to talk for hours in bed, no TV, no phones. That disappeared. Then when when we were close, or we did have sex, the intimacy kept dwindling. It turned into "let's get this over with" for her, it turned into "why can't we do this more often??" for me. She told me today she felt violated during sex for much of our marriage, which hurt to hear. not because I forced of pressured her, just because there was .


Did you try to validate your W's feelings and own up to your role in this? This is BIG, BIG! Did you ask any open-ended questions on what it would look like to her? The intimacy and sex FOR her.

Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517660
12/16/14 04:32 AM
12/16/14 04:32 AM
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Card29 Offline OP
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I did validate and I avoided making any comments about her shaming reactions because I want her to know it was MY problem, MY fault. Right now shes still reeling. I have not asked an open-ended question. With the way our convos have went lately, I'm guessing I'll have a chance to, though. She sent me a text tonight (really late, hours after she's normly asleep) saying:

Quote:
When we were first together I used to feel pressure to please you sexually to get you to stay. I did things all the time bc I thought that's what I needed to do. And now knowing that for the next 7 years you were fulfilling yourself with pornography instead of me, and thinking about it when we were being intimate..I feel so used. And violated.


She then said she was going to bed, and not to respond. I did not.


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517664
12/16/14 04:51 AM
12/16/14 04:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Wonka Offline
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Card,

How about this....just a suggestion.

W, all of this had to be very difficult for you to share this with me and it was a brave thing to do. It took some guts to speak up. I have given your comments some serious thought. I want to be sure that I understand you correctly. Are you saying that you feel devalued by me sexually? That sounds like a really awful place to be in and I thank you for bringing this to my attention. I want to and do to take full responsibility for this unacceptable behavior by not repeating it ever again.

You do not need to answer right away. I can imagine that this is a very difficult and painful topic for you. I am here to talk when you are ready. Hopefully we can have some dialogue that is healing for both of us.



My suggestion is to send this tomorrow morning.

Last edited by Wonka; 12/16/14 04:55 AM.
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Wonka] #2517760
12/16/14 03:19 PM
12/16/14 03:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 898
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Card29 Offline OP
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We texted again this morning. I basically communicated what you recommended, in my own words, expressed my sorrow for causing her to feel like that. She answered the open ended question with:

Quote:
I'm saying that without the emotional intimacy I felt like I was being used as a sexual object then. That's why I always just left when you were done. Now I feel used and violated.


I validated again, then I reiterated that I learned about some of the damage that porn can and has done over the summer, and since that time I've been doing everything I can to stop permanently, both looking and thinking about it. I ended with "I'm always here to listen".


Me 30, STBX 30
D3
M 8 years
BD 6/3/14
S 7/26/14
Off-and-on. PA since BD. Possibly "off" since Winter 2015?
Light Switch/I'm Over Her 12/31/14
D finalized 1/10/16
Re: Card29 VII [Re: Card29] #2517763
12/16/14 03:27 PM
12/16/14 03:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,319
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Wonka Offline
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Card,

This is a good first step. I would suggest that you call our friend, GoatGal, to come over and help you through this process as she has been through this kind of pain. GGG is over at the MLC forum.

You might ask W what does emotional intimacy look like for her and you want to hear her out so you can understand better on how to meet her needs.

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