Jim, just because of the way I'm wired, I'd be curious to hear your "Pseudo-Psych" take on things just for chits and giggles....You'd probably be right.
Bright, Ggrass, Beatrice, kml, Wonka, Matt,---I always appreciate your thoughts. I know H is in MLC, no doubt about that. I hope that time will lead to some clarity on his part.
But there are underlying issues that concern me greatly. Prior to his betrayal, I was willing to live with these because I believed--really believed---that I was in it for the long haul. That he really loved me, that he was my best friend.
But he showed a side of himself that needs more than a return to the "best" years to balance it out; to make me feel emotionally safe with him. I've had a lot of trauma that he will need to salve.
I can do that for ME, on my own, going forward. I can heal and be whole as an individual. I'm almost there now.
But to be in a R with him, he would have to be a balm for my soul; I would need him to help me get over this and to help me feel cherished and protected again. --------------------------------------------------------------
In light of his actions, the things he's admitted to during our almost 30 year R, the way he became so cold and cruel, and the current fact of his complete self-absorption to the point where he snipes at me for "being SO LUCKY" to have the "time/freedom/positive outlook/talent/friends" to be SO HAPPY!!!!.... that I am enjoying my life WAY TOO MUCH after he threw me out like an old shoe... it's just incomprehensible.
I am on eggshells around him all the time. I have been for over two years. I didn't realize how much "adapting" I was doing to keep the peace. And now---DBing means I watch every word I say, every nuance of body language, every interaction. I am so careful not to "upset" him with a healthy dose of reality or the occasional "truth dart". Because to show him anything other than a perfect, happy, sexy, loving, kind, accepting wife is shooting myself in the foot?
Sometimes I think he just needs to get a grip. Not for me to be cruel, but with me being all nice as pie, it's just telling him that I'm here, holding steady, being kind, being thoughtful... and he's just doing--whatever he's doing.
Whether that's planning his divorce, surfing his dating sites, figuring out how he can screw that new underling... I couldn't know. Nor do I want to. He can do ALL THAT, with the idea that I'm just here indefinitely until he DECIDES HE WANTS TO BE WITH ME.
I noticed a real warmth in him once he realized I wasn't dating or trying to date. But did that draw him any closer to me? Nope!!!
I think it just allowed him to continue to take me for granted. Happy on his back burner as his "Plan B".
Let me be clear, I am no man's "Plan B". I am not waiting around to see if he decides he wants me or not. Either he does, and he'll do the work. Or he doesn't. In which case--he can watch me walk away. -------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to do this song and dance anymore---at least not on a regular basis.
I can DB with the best of them now, and I'm still plugging away. I can do the occasional interaction and work my sexyback.I can speak his LL and fill his friggin' love tank.
But what am I getting? Big GOOSE EGG!!!!
But I am SO much more relaxed without his tension, his chronic movement and anxiety--which I always saw, but he denied.
Living with him was like living with an angry cactus. He was "there", present, but only in body. And you couldn't get too close or you'd get spiked...
He was working really hard to keep some serious walls up between us, and when I dared to voice concerns that we never spent any time together, that I felt emotionally/sexually neglected--well, this was met with (what I can see in retrospect) was a manipulative mental massage session meant to put me on the defensive.
And it worked.
But it doesn't work anymore. And I think that's another thing that concerns him. He can no longer control/manipulate me as he used to because I've learned all his tricks. I'm no longer the clueless subject, and my eyes are open. I know many of his "secrets" now, and I think he is ashamed.
This is sad, and I feel sorry for him, but that's no basis for a marriage. I think not having the upper hand in that way is very disturbing to him. He is used to having his secrecy, keeping me in the dark, and being able to pull the wool over my eyes.
He and I both know those days are gone for good.
YES. I AM MIND-READING ^^^^. Just call me "The Amazing Goat Gal"! -------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't mean to focus on him--the point of this thread was to look into the future. But when I look into my crystal ball, I don't see him being what I need him to be now.
Jim--I said "I don't think he can change"... I should clarify that. What I mean is, I don't think he will be able to see what needs changing and then do the work to make that happen.
I think he COULD change, but he'd have to really want to. And part of that is recognizing that the problem lies within him, and that no woman/situation/thing/experience is going to "fix" what's wrong.
I think he's spent most of his life coping in the ways that felt best/easiest. He's not one to take the hard road for the rewards it offers.
He's one for the quick fix, and tomorrow's another day. He doesn't think things through. It's just important to feel better/do it NOW. --------------------------------------------------------
Anyhow. Today I have not heard from him all day. He said last night he wouldn't be here tonight and for the first time, I didn't even wonder why.
I find I don't care. I will not initiate contact, and frankly, I didn't notice until a few minutes ago that he had not checked in all day, even though we had a snowstorm...
If I am the one to have to constantly initiate contact, and extend the olive branch, which only serves to keep him convinced that we'll be "friends" after the divorce (?) I see no point in continuing.
Maybe it's time to "afflict the comfortable"???
He seems content with me offering to make myself emotionally vulnerable and seek out his company so he doesn't have to do a thing.
Well, I'll wait for the vets to chime in (if they're reading) before I move to PHASE TWO: Setting him off balance.
This weekend I have a "platonic" date with a young male friend... I don't know what his goal is; we just like each other and are going to have dinner and go to a dance. But for me... I'm just... wondering.
No. Not dating. Not looking to hook up. Just exploring how it feels to be with a man who I am attracted to, who is interested in me as a person (knows I'm married, he has a GF, this is not a "date") to see what those feelings ARE.
I've forgotten how that feels.
How could I have been with my H all these years yet not feel any of those things? I didn't feel attractive, interesting, funny... he often expressed his annoyance with me.
Something is not right about that. ----------------------------------------------
Typos and vague writing be damned. I am not going to edit---you guys are just going to have to figure it out!
Your Pal.
The Goat Gal
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
You know, if someone could tell me HOW to keep those feelings of love alive in my heart while my husband has cut me out of his heart for years---and who has filed for divorce saying he never loved me, and doesn't want to be with me anymore...well, I'd really like to hear how that's done.
I just can't see being detached to the point where you're not a sensitive, hurting, emotional pile of jelly, yet still having those feelings of ATTACHMENT present.
I don't think those two things can be reconciled. There must be a hardening of the heart, much the way our WAS have done to us. A way to make the transition.
Because if I were sitting here feeling overwhelming love and loss over my H, I don't think I would be doing very well. My GAL would just be hollow attempts to fill my time without him here, and my PMA would mostly be a put-on.
Because deep down, I'd be sad and lonely and cut to the quick over his actions. If I felt I was still "in love" with him, I would be desperate...
-------------------------------------------------
I wonder sometimes now if some readers haven't "written me off" because I am taking a hard line and moving forward as if I were going to be single. Isn't that part of of MWD advocates? Not just pretending, but actually DOING IT?
I think you guys think I've given up on my M and as such, I am thinking about all the negatives so I can detach further and rationalize my decision to keep moving forward as though what H has wanted--a divorce-- will eventually come to pass.
I haven't given up. I'm just being realistic. I have my head out of the clouds and my dreams are dashed. I'm being pragmatic.
I can't imagine, even with busying myself with GAL/PMA and working on my own "stuff", how I could be doing as well as I am if I were feeling such deep love and loss for my H.
Detaching has to mean separating the feelings to some degree. Not painting him in a negative light, but refraining from doing what we all do when we love someone. We overlook their negatives and focus on the positives.
Well... I have done that for almost thirty years and it hasn't done me a bit of good. Now I want to see things clearly. If that means that you all read my words as criticism of H, so be it.
It's the unvarnished truth. And I take ownership of being clueless enough to have tolerated (what now seems to have been the intolerable) for all those years.
So. How does one still feel "in love" and yet detach to the point where the heartless actions (intentional or not) of our "beloved" doesn't make us want to die?
I think that's where my current position comes in. I do feel "loving" towards H. But I no longer am "in love" with him. To be "in love" means I see the best in him, and feel that feeling of being special and cherished.
I'm not so stupid that I will continue to direct my affections at someone who doesn't reciprocate. That's a recipe for pain and a loss of self-respect.
I do feel loving towards H. I don't wish him ill. I feel sorry for him. I can see that he is broken and suffering.
But hell...so am I! And I am suffering BECAUSE OF HIM.
There is no way around that. Where I am at right now is due to his choices, no matter how you look at it.
Each day I find I care less and less. Each day I feel stronger and better about me and my future. Sure, I still have "hope". I could hit the lottery. (In some ways, that would even be better!)
I believe love is a choice.
He has chosen not to love me, or he never could
And I have chosen not to love someone who has hurt me so deeply and yet who continues to act as though he is somehow the victim.
I could chose to love him again, but he would have to be worthy.
Barring that, I can act lovingly towards him, which is what I have been doing. But I can act lovingly to the homeless woman on the corner too.
For me, that's what he will get unless he lets me know he wants something else.
The day I start chasing down friends/lovers/family to "LOVE AND RESPECT ME" is the day I go up the mountain and live the rest of my life as a hermit.
---(G)GGG
NOT EDITED
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
Knowing "what" to do, and "how" to go about it are two very different things.
Not to mention, even knowing "how" doesn't necessarily make it any easier!
--(G)GGG
Who is working on Christmas plans solo--because for the last several years H was "Super Scrooge" and there were no gifts, no special times, "New Year's Eve was for amateurs", it's just "another birthday", "just another anniversary"...everything became---nothing. Not worth noting, not worth celebrating. I went from someone with loads of Christmas Spirit to someone who no longer bothered to give gifts, send cards... Funny thing too. The last few years, the only cards I got were from my dentist, Eye doctor, the Real Estate Agent we'd bought our house from... the veterinarian who financed a wing from our payments over the years.
And THIS YEAR---I've gotten cards, gifts, invites for parties, meals... Hmmmm.... Not because they feel sorry for me (or are trying to get in my pants)... just because the efforts I've made at connecting with people this last year have paid off in that people feel I care for them, and so they feel connected to me.
Funny how that works...
So I have plans for the holidays. I am giving gifts, and surprising people, and going out of my way to make the people who made my life rich this year feel special and cared for. I'd forgotten how much I missed that.
I just can't see being detached to the point where you're not a sensitive, hurting, emotional pile of jelly, yet still having those feelings of ATTACHMENT present.
I couldn't. When I detached it involved the good and the bad. I thinks that's the only way it can be done.
Can you dettatch fully? Not allow what he has put you through come out as anger toward him in the form of barbs or comments?
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
You know, GG, I got to this point. I loved my h so much that I wanted him to find his way. For him.
I knew that the ultimate act of love was to let him go. As I said, I loved him, but, I also learned to love me enough to want to follow my journey, too.
I knew that the way for me to let him go I had to get to a place of forgiveness. To me, forgiveness is a way to honor your relationship. It is an acceptance of what is and the letting go of expecting something different.
Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act.
Once I got there, and it was a tough road, I was able to detach. For me detaching meant that I would not allow his actions or words to affect mine. It meant that I could still have compassion for him and his crisis and continue to live my life.
Ultimately, I wanted what was best for him even if that didnt include me.
Sorry--I was editing and got booted off--so this post belongs about two posts up ^^^^.
Thanks, Jack Three Beans.
I really value your input as someone who has been on this board a long time and who has devoted your energies towards moderating and--the occasional post. I feel fortunate to have you weigh in on mine.
Yes, I know I can refrain from the barbed comments. I do--90% of the time. At this point, I am really capable of doing it almost 100% if H doesn't serve up something completely unexpected and whack-o. -------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I wonder if sometimes though I "should" be continuing to serve up the "nice as pie" routine when he takes a dig at me. The things I have said to him since I started DBing are pretty darn mild, considering. Only saying that I'm not as happy as he thinks I am. For a long time, I refrained from even mentioning that my situation wasn't just rosy. But it feels far from the truth.
So to be "authentic", it seems I must communicate this truth to him on some level. I am not thrilled with the way things are. I am grieving. I am hurt very, very deeply. I am concerned that I won't make the right decision where he is concerned, or the right decision for us.
I feel as though he is incapable of being rational and making good decisions, that's he's gotten a long term room in CrazyTown, and that leaves it to ME to be the one to figure things out.
(No, not solve his problems or fix him, but to do some damage control on our R and our shared reality; as well as making sure the future is better than today.)
But you've been around a long time on this board, Jack. Do you believe there is a time and place for a bit of push-back?
The proverbial "Truth Dart"? --------------------------------------------------------------
I understand the concept of being accepting and not criticizing or causing them to feel uncomfortable or pressured around us.
I've done that, ad nauseum. Is there not a place for giving him a slight push off-balance to cause him to take stock and steady himself?
I mean, without criticizing or blaming, without pressure. Just a little reality check?
If I keep on here, keeping a candle lit in the window and a pie in the oven, just in case he ever wants to come in, what is that telling him?
As much as he seems to like to know that I'm here, that I care for him, and that I'm not moving across the country or dating other men, I don't feel like it's helping him feel closer to me.
It just feels like he is continuing to take me for granted. That I'm safe in my little box until he can trot out the parts of me he actually likes somewhere down the road.
There is a part of me that feels unless he starts to feel uncomfortable with how things are going, he's never going to change.
This all goes back to the vets months ago, who thought my approach was too friendly. Labug, I think was one, Cadet another.
I countered with my statement that whenever I pulled back, he pulled back even further, and even got a bit nasty. When I warmed up, he warmed up. ---------------------------------------------------------------
It was all that "Pursuit and Distance" thing. I didn't pursue, went "dim/dark" and he got mad. I didn't like him being mad, so I initiated more and we *seemed* closer. At least, he was nicer, initiated more, and seemed happier.
But that has been an illusion. Overall, there has been no REAL movement towards me on his part since July 2014 or so. At least not that I can determine.
Sure, he's communicated more and been more friendly, but that's it. He has avoided any prolonged contact with me, turned me down three times for casual time together... nothing has really changed.
He has me just where he wants me. Friendly, loving, AT A DISTANCE and ONLY IN THEORY.
He knows my position on dating, on not wanting a D but not standing in his way. I've said it all, and as the vets on here say, there's no reason to keep repeating myself.
I feel he wants to know that I want him back--just because he WANTS TO KNOW AND FEEL THAT. But NOT because he actually WANTS to be with me. --------------------------------------------------------------
Jack... I would appreciate any input you could give me. Sometimes I am at a loss. I looked at the DB coaches, I could possibly swing it with a disposable credit card (H controls the money)... but there came a point where I wondered if I even wanted to try an "get" H to want to be married to me because he has so many problems... him wanting to stay married to me isn't going to fix what's wrong.
He has to do that... He has to WANT to WANT to be with ME.
It seems so hopeless.
I do feel that I am losing so much.
And yes, I have hardened my heart towards him. I have had to. It's survival. The alternative is to awaken every day feeling like I'm going to be sick, thinking about going to bed alone every night. Wanting to talk to him about this little thing and that and having to stop myself from "initiating" or pressuring him. ---------------------------------------------------------------
I still try to be loving, compassionate...but feeling that I really "love" him is hard because he is acting so unloving towards me.
And I can see that he has many good qualities. Or--he did. I really don't see any of those qualities in evidence now. I know he's in crisis and all that, but it is who he is NOW.
Our marriage wasn't all bad and he didn't mistreat me, at least, not overtly. When he started his MLC or whatever you want to call it, and when he started his affair, he became very cruel verbally, withheld any affection, and had really stopped spending any time with me or even looking at me or making extended eye contact/having real conversations probably a year prior to that.
The last time he took me out or made plans to do anything with me was February 2012. Prior to that, he treated me like a roommate, although he paid the bills and took out the trash.
That's the reality. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I became complacent. I made my own happiness while I made excuses for him for being "overworked", "stressed", "depressed". And he was angry at me for doing exactly that. I gave him the space he seemed to want and let him know I was there for him, and I got busy GALing and finding things to do that I could do alone.
I think I said on here that I recently met another long-time fellow swing dancer who was surprised when I said I was married, because I was "always alone." ------------------------------------------------------------- Sadly, I was always alone long before this MLC, or his affair.
I've been living my life as a single person for five years or more, unless you count the hour once a week in the middle of the day on a Saturday/Sunday (his choice), in between his doing the "important stuff" when I was expected to drop everything and put out with no connection and no foreplay. Sorry for the TMI, but it's time for truth. --------------------------------------------------------------
I married this man for who I believed he was. Clearly he managed to support me and protect me and make me feel cherished and loved for many years, even with the emotional distance between us. My family and friends loved him, though less in recent years. Newer friends have expressed-not a dislike--but a wondering about him. They weren't comfortable around him, nor he them.
(I am a very independent person and have no need of being joined at the hip, so time on my own was never a problem, until it became the majority of the time we had together.)
I can still see the POTENTIAL for that in him. But it is undermined by all this other stuff, stuff which I can see now, (with therapy) was very unhealthy for me.
So....sorry for the ramble. Just thinking out loud.
No one is all good or all bad. It's just that I'm growing and learning, and maybe he is too, but it may end up being "too little, too late" as they say.
He is not a bad person, just a very damaged one. He has suffered things which I can only imagine. But that doesn't change the reality that he may not be able to really be the kind of partner I need now.
His MLC and infidelity was a catalyst. If not for that, we'd probably still be trucking along.
But it DID happen and it changed everything. It destroyed everything we had. I'm only looking for a clue that there is something there of a solid foundation to build upon.
This is going to sound strange, so let me see if I can explain. I have forgiven him in the sense that I understand he is just a flawed human being just like the rest of us, and that he never did anything with the intention of hurting me.
I have told him exactly that ^^^. I said that I had already forgiven him, and that I understood that I was only collateral damage. That he was trying to feel better; more "alive", and that hurting me was something he probably wanted to avoid, but it was outweighed by the urgency of his own situation. That under normal circumstances, he would have never done that to me. --------------------------------------------------------------
Cognitively, I understand all of that. I can let it go, and forgive, and move forward.
However, that is moving forward WITHOUT HIM.
If we were to try and reconcile, then he would have to do the work necessary to help me heal as HALF OF THIS MARRIAGE. I could NOT let it all go as I would if we were divorced, because he would be half of the equation and his actions (past/present/future) would be very relevant in the health of whatever R we had.
Although I didn't specify to him, it is my hope that he didn't take my "I have already forgiven you" comment to mean the same as "I'll sweep all my pain and your indiscretions under the rug and we can pretend it never happened."
Because that is very far from the truth.
I don't want to dwell on the negatives, but neither will I allow them to exist on the basement level, where the foundation is known to take on water.
I hold no animosity any longer... I'm feeling past that. (At least today, check back in a few months.)
But I don't think he meant to hurt me.
He knew that he WOULD, eventually, and that pretty much amounts to the same thing. But it wasn't his goal.
That is a whole different animal, and one I can say that I'm happy not to have encountered to date.
Still, the fact remains that whatever the "reason" or "intent", he has hurt me very deeply, and will continue to do so if things don't change radically on his end.
All that said---I am going away from Dec 20 until after Jan 1.
I am thinking of telling H that I want to have no contact during that time.
Why?
Well, first of all because he has stated that I can just "move out" and he will happily continue without me.
FACT: He cannot work his job with the hours and commute and take care of these animals and the house. Last year he had to hire a pet-sitter and still the animals were neglected and he was overwhelmed. And he only worked half days the entire time.
This time around he has decided to work half days to accommodate my visiting with my mother, etc. The reality is HE CAN'T SUSTAIN THIS PLACE WITHOUT ME. At least without neglecting the basic needs of the animals in our care.
Part of me is thinking to give him a taste of what he wants--kind of like last year--but we were in touch an awful lot that time, and I didn't even know he'd filed for divorce the day I left. (Psychic me. I felt sick and had to leave immediately.)
I'd like him to be here without me through Christmas, feel the pangs of being alone; something he has NOT had to experience while living with co-dependent co-worker landlady. He hasn't been alone YET. And I know he hates it.
I want to not speak to him unless it's an emergency. I just want a break.
I'll be visiting in the areas where I would move to if we D. I just want him out of the equation while I'm thinking.
But yeah---a big part of that is lighting a fire under his butt--let him see what life without me would REALLY be like.
Then again, inconvenience isn't a really a selling point for him wanting to be in a R with me.
And--there's that pesky ego again!
I am NOT waiting around for him to decide I'm a good fallback option.
What say you?
I could use a few weeks of being TOTALLY DARK. He's a touch-and-go type. Maybe it's time to cut that off?
---(G)GGG PS: Not a peep from him all day. That might be a first since he goes to sleep about now. Nice to note that I don't have any feeling about it one way or the other.
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
GGG, a lot of what you’ve just written resonates with me big time. This:
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
You know, if someone could tell me HOW to keep those feelings of love alive in my heart while my husband has cut me out of his heart for years---and who has filed for divorce saying he never loved me, and doesn't want to be with me anymore...well, I'd really like to hear how that's done.
I just can't see being detached to the point where you're not a sensitive, hurting, emotional pile of jelly, yet still having those feelings of ATTACHMENT present.
I don't think those two things can be reconciled. There must be a hardening of the heart, much the way our WAS have done to us. A way to make the transition.
And this:
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I think you guys think I've given up on my M and as such, I am thinking about all the negatives so I can detach further and rationalize my decision to keep moving forward as though what H has wanted--a divorce-- will eventually come to pass.
And this:
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I do feel "loving" towards H. But I no longer am "in love" with him. To be "in love" means I see the best in him, and feel that feeling of being special and cherished.
I think this is exactly what I’ve been struggling with. If I detach enough, I will no longer be able to see anything good in my H. This is it! I’ve been trying to find all kind of negatives about H hoping that it will help me to finally move on. I do have the feelings of warmth and understanding and forgiveness, and even wishing H the best, feeling sorry for him... But… at the same time thinking that he hurt me so much, and if I ever to recover from this, I have to completely remove H from my heart.
GGG, again, thanks for sharing. It helps me to process my feelings without thinking that I’m crazy or different from everybody else here who seem to be doing better in terms of understanding the detachment concept.
M:50 H:52 S28 (my S from previous marriage) M:17 + 3 BD: 06/12 S: 06/12 - H works in another state
Hey G. I told you how I got to a place where I could lovingly detach. For me, it had to include forgiveness. It doesnt sound strange at all that you forgive him because he is a flawed human being like we all are and that he didnt intend to hurt you.
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
However, that is moving forward WITHOUT HIM.
If we were to try and reconcile, then he would have to do the work necessary to help me heal as HALF OF THIS MARRIAGE. I could NOT let it all go as I would if we were divorced, because he would be half of the equation and his actions (past/present/future) would be very relevant in the health of whatever R we had.
My moving forward and forgiving him was not me moving forward without him, but, rather moving forward for me. It was saying, I heard what you said and I am going to honor your feelings. It didnt mean I couldnt still have hope. I was putting my marriage safely away and continuing on my journey. Your h would absolutely have to catch up to you and those issues would have to be dealt with.
I was able to still have love and compassion for my h because I knew he was suffering. He still had to own his actions, though. Forgiveness allowed me to have that. Acceptance allowed me to love from a distance while still living my life.
