It seems to me that it all boils down to extremely low self-esteem. When you already feel like you are "unworthy" any small comment, even one not meant at all to be unfavorable, is heard as an insult. In turn, they lash out, hoping to protect them self from the "attack" that was just made against them. After they lash out and hurt the other person, they see that hurt and feel worse about them self. So, to protect them self from that added bad feeling, they must tell them self that they were justified, that the other person WAS saying something "bad" about them. Over time this happens many, many times until they have demonized the other person so much, that they become a demon in their mind. They are expecting that other person (who isn't at all being like they think) to attack them. We all know what happens with "expectations" here on the board! Never good.
My W has told me over and again that she just "couldn't trust" me. Let me tell you, I was about the most trustworthy H you could ask for. My life was centered on her and my family. What I think happened, what she couldn't trust was who she made me into in her mind. The person who made her feel bad about herself. Not because of anything I did but because of how she felt about herself. In turn, they now must build a case that this hurtful person is really the cause of the pain they feel inside....hence the changing of the past, the only remembering the "bad" times, the blaming. The problem is the only one who can change this dynamic is the person who is the least capable. They are where they are at because of how they feel about then self and what they need to understand is that, once again, this is all happening because of THEIR problems. More of them being at "fault". Easier to see yourself as a victim of the other person "making" them feel bad. Add in someone who tells them how they are right to feel this way (OP, in my case my FIL) and they now have back up that they are a victim. A VERY bad dynamic! First they have to see that this other person (who has now made them feel good about them self) isn't telling them the real truth, then they have to understand that, once again (in their minds) they were "wrong". They have to come to terms with the fact that they have demonized and blamed someone who didn't deserve it...making them the "bad" guy, the "wrong" one all over again.
You know, thinking this all through, it's a wonder that ANY of these people EVER wake up. So much easier to stay in the tunnel. I think the reason it takes so long for them to come out is because they need to realize that any future R is just going to end up with the same dynamic. For that to happen they are going to have to see the same scenario play out all over again from the beginning. It took a long time for them to get to this point with us, it will take time before they see it again.
In the meantime the LBS's entire life is turned upside down. The kids suffer. They leave a trail of destruction behind that they will need to come to terms with. A lot considering they couldn't handle the give and take of a normal R! Kind of puts the enormity of the odds against ever getting things to be good again!
Just taking a bit of a break again, been GALing and doing a lot of soul searching. What else is new?
Today was a milestone. I awoke, and didn't think of H until hour later. And for the first time ever, I didn't even notice that he hadn't contacted me at all for the entire day.
Normally, this would bug me because it's a behavior of his which is usually on the tails of some "transgression" on my part (in his mind), just a weird passive-aggressive thing he does. Today, I didn't think of it until I thought to ask him a question when he was already almost to the house this evening. (Guess I ticked him off again, since he was going to arrive unannounced. That's his little "gotcha!" thing he does.)
When I realized that I had hardly given it a thought, it felt like such relief. I guess that's detachment.
I can see now that he is very damaged; there are many problems that I've slowly been identifying. There is an awful lot to overcome, and I don't even know if he's still in therapy. I am finally fully awake and I actually can't believe how blind I have been for so many years.
I guess it took a crisis like this to bring everything to the forefront that has been there, on some level, all along. I can see now where he has continually undermined the connection between us and I don't think the porn *caused* it, although it certainly didn't help.
He has a serious problem with emotional closeness, being real, being vulnerable. Let's just say---there are a lot of issues he needs to deal with. And after that, there may still be something there for "us" but he has so much to work on himself--I think it's optimistic to think that he will get far enough in his own personal work to be able to work on the issues with me and our M.
Sad--but I'm kind of OK with it at this point. I don't blame him; I can see in some ways that he has struggled all these years. I think he did the best he could with what he had to work with. Unfortunately, what he had to work with was very fragile at best.
I am really looking at myself to see how it was that I didn't see these things...I know the Asperger's played a role, but also he was very, very skilled at hiding things from me until the chit finally hit the fan. I also believe the best in people. I believed the best about him. I never believed he could lie to me and deceive me on the level he has. That he could hurt me like he has.
That part makes me cry a bit writing this, because I feel like I'll be better off without him. Not because I'm hurt or angry, not because I want revenge or anything else. It's just that I'm seeing things I guess I was blind to--and I agree with him.
I don't think he can change. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I really didn't know. I accepted a lot, since he was outwardly kind and caring. But I am pretty sure now that there was no "unconditional love" but I was merely a vehicle for him; the pretty talented wife to trot out, who made him look better, who was there for support and sex and give him someone to take care of.
But love? I know I loved him, but honestly I'm wondering if he ever really loved ME, or just the idea of me. That he wanted someone like me, but didn't have the skills to actually be fully present. I see years of him distancing, blaming.. deflecting, manipulating, taking advantage of my trusting nature.
I think if I had been "normal" (NT-Neuro Typical) he would not have been able to pull the wool over my eyes for so long.
The last few days as I have been deep in thought and weighing things carefully, he has been very short and snippy with me, as if he KNOWS.
I have been pleasant, but preoccupied. 50% of warmth returned. I am no longer responding to his "GN" texts at night, because to me, if he can't be bothered to actually write something closer to "goodnight", I'm not going to bother to respond.
I have also been thinking a lot about things he's said and done over the years, and I can see some traits that are very disturbing. That said, he has/had some very good qualities as well, but it seems in hindsight that he was wearing a mask much of the time.
I feel now that I never really knew who he was. He wouldn't let me know. ----------------------------------------------------------------
So I have to add that over the last few weeks I have spent time with both men and women and in those interactions I feel validated that I am a kind and lighthearted person, that in general I am liked and appreciated.
And that my husband has often been quick to "correct" me socially, (I guess because he felt my free-spirited nature embarrassed him, or I outshone him somehow). He did this in a "helpful" way, but I never really saw the problem with anything I was doing.
And I feel like that now.
Since we've been separated, people have been seeking my company and my world has opened up dramatically. When I say "people", I mean I'm getting all kinds of invites for group events, girl events, guys who want to hang out (date?), all kinds of things.
I am forced to continue to contrast this with H and his criticism and conditional acceptance of me. I find with time, the rejection from him hurts less. I am more convinced than ever that this is a problem with him, and not with me.
I think he wanted to divorce me before I could abandon him. I think the fact that I destroyed his well-crafted mask in our marriage meant that he had to be rid of me. That he believes that he needs someone who doesn't really know the "real" him, because he believe the "real" him is ugly.
And that breaks my heart. But I can't help him.
These days I think a lot about a life without him and it feels so freeing.
There is no one I'm interested in; I know moving and getting on with a life on my own will be very difficult... but there is a pervasive sense that he has done me a tremendous favor. Maybe very, very late in the game, but it's not too late to start over.
And I am just fine being on my own.
I can't live with that twisted dynamic anymore. I have been in plenty of therapy, and I'm pretty sure that most of the "problems" in our R have stemmed from him and his issues, and my trying to make the most of things and be accepting.
I bring my own stuff to the table, to be sure--but I never mistreated, neglected, abused, lied to, cheated on, disrespected, victimized, took advantage of, screamed at, name called, embarrassed, spoke ill of to others, nagged, criticized, turned away from, withheld affection from, was sexually cold to....him, unless you count after he started cheating on me and was emotionally abusive.
Sure, there were moments when I raised my voice, got frustrated, or said things he interpreted as criticism... I'm sure I didn't fill his love tank, that I didn't speak his LL. That perhaps I could have done more to make him feel appreciated.
But I'm not a friggin' mind reader, for all the mind reading I did above ^^^ Many of my efforts to do sweet things for him were shot down with "You're not my MOTHER, stop mothering me." As if packing him a lunch was a mother thing and not a wife thing.
So I "learned" to stop doing things like this for him...no doubt he then felt neglected. Who knows?
But I would love to have him write me an extensive list of all the ways I mistreated him or fell short in our M. I really would. As a roadmap of things to work on for my next R.
However, I can write an extensive list (now) of things he has done throughout our R with might have been adaptive for him, but which were very destructive to our M and to me personally.
It hurts to write this--but I have to get it out.
I just think I'd be better off on my own. I can't do this with him anymore. I can see now how screwed up it was. It was insidious---but it was very abusive towards me. I can see that now, and therapy has helped me identify it. --------------------------------------------------------
To his credit, I don't think he ever wanted to hurt me. He just couldn't avoid it. He is that damaged. And I think he always will be.
With him gone, I just feel a weight is off my shoulders, I really do.
Maybe that's why he filed for divorce. He has always known what I am only now learning.
That said, I am still DBing. I am not done yet, and he may have some significant breakthrough. Our life together wasn't all bad. But there is so much damage done, so many things that would have to change dramatically for this to work.
I am still sticking to my plan to work on myself and wait and see. But it is looking more and more like my attachment is more to my animals/home/investment/dream than it is to him.
He has been the source of so much pain for me.
I know I sound like a WAW now with all this negative talk about him. I know there are positive things about him. They're just--gone.
As much as he's moved a bit closer to me, it's precarious because any minuscule slight against him that he perceives means he gets snippy with me.
I think the lack of nasty texts, etc. is more due to my improved ability to avoid eliciting them than it is to any progress on his part.
I'm not even going to edit this. I don't want to think about this any more today.
Love you guys---
Your Pal,
The Goat Gal
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
I'm wondering if he ever really loved ME, or just the idea of me. That he wanted someone like me, but didn't have the skills to actually be fully present.
GGG, did you just read my mind? I’ve been wondering the same things about my H. Plus, I think he used me to elevate himself to a more prosperous life. I thought the idea that I would be always making more money appealed to him a lot from the beginning.
I love reading your updates. You have an amazing way to express your thoughts and feelings. Plus I can see me in a lot of this, having similar thought and feelings, but just being unable to express them as good as you. I’m glad you are progressing on the detachment part nicely. I need to learn from you.
M:50 H:52 S28 (my S from previous marriage) M:17 + 3 BD: 06/12 S: 06/12 - H works in another state
I agree that they wanted someone like us, but didn't have the skills to fully emotionally engage. I think we believe they only loved the idea of us, but it isn't quite right. They wanted to love us, but didn't know how. And they tried to love us. My xh gets a lot of brownie points for that.
He was damaged goods - just how damaged I have only gradually come to see. While it doesn't excuse some horrible behaviour it does enable me to feel more compassion than I would have believed possible. And in some ways GGG your h is a pussy cat compared with some of the MLC monsters here.
But the bottom line is that they pulled the rug out from under us. We were dong our best to make the relationship work (in most cases), and they just trashed it all and walked away. That is how it felt to us.
What it felt like to them is different, and while we never know what is in another person's head, from what I have heard from therapists and also those who have come through it, is that they felt trapped, constrained, a failure, that their life was over without them having lived it, and so on. When they disengaged they were fleeing for their life, or that is how it felt.
To them we represent the problem, not any sort of solution. Many of them blame us actively, others more passively.
We can overthink MLC, and much of the time I believe the MLCer is in a fog. They cling on to a few beliefs as if their life depended on it. Sadly for us, for many of them that belief is that we are part or all of the cause of how they feel, and so they need to get away
As I was reading there were a few phrases that really stood out for me because they were things I could connect with although it remains to be seen if that’s a good thing.
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
....he has continually undermined the connection between us
....what he had to work with was very fragile at best.
....who made him look better
....didn't have the skills to actually be fully present
....he would not have been able to pull the wool over my eyes
And then here is what i think is the core of it all
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
..... he believes that he needs someone who doesn't really know the "real" him, because he believe the "real" him is ugly
I typed out a fairly lengthy bit of amateur psychology but deleted because it was too much mind reading and personal projection rather than concentrating on your situation. What I will say is that if you piece this lot together you get a fairly negative picture.
You get someone who doesn’t think they deserve happiness and believes that people only like him because they haven’t got to know him (made worse if you add in some social anxiety). He feels he can’t be who he is really, that he can’t relax because then they would see and when they see they will leave. If someone believes this (truly believes it) then they live in a perpetual state of guilt, anxiety and fear convinced that the person they are with is so much better than them and its only a matter of time before they realise. Its like being a character written by Edgar Allan Poe
Criticism (however lovingly giving), the other person shining in a non relationship setting, or just their other half being sad is all seen as signs that they are realising their mistake and this will soon lead to rejection. It reminds them of how awful they think they are. Crazy making in anyone’s book and as a defence can mean blaming or punishing the person who makes them feel like this. In some cases this may cause people to jump before they are pushed.
Ultimately they are sabotaging their own happiness but probably can’t see it
However as someone who relates to/is like this ^^^^^ description then this bit is what truly scares me
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I don't think he can change.
I can’t say if there is a right fix to this other than to take care of yourself and live your life as best you can, but I hope you can remember this bit.
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
.... I don't think he ever wanted to hurt me. He just couldn't avoid it. He is that damaged.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
What it felt like to them is different, and while we never know what is in another person's head, from what I have heard from therapists and also those who have come through it, is that they felt trapped, constrained, a failure, that their life was over without them having lived it, and so on. When they disengaged they were fleeing for their life, or that is how it felt.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Yup, Bea. You've captured the essence of the MLCer mind quite well. That was me right there.
GG - I can relate to your post. My marriage was mostly good for many of the 24 years, but as I got further and further away from it after the separation and divorce, I began to see more of the ways in which my ex really wasn't there for me. And once I dated new men, the stark differences in how they treated me, versus my ex, became more apparent.
Truth is, my ex was unhappy with life and with himself, and the spew and negativity that I got was a small percentage of what he heaps on himself in his own mind. I felt it was part of the normal give-and-take of a marriage for me to do things for him and try to help him feel better - but I can see now that I demanded too little for myself. And that, oddly enough, he might have been happier in the marriage if I had been more demanding and less accommodating.
It certainly doesn't mean my marriage was all bad - objectively I can see that it still was mostly good. But it wasn't quite the relationship that I THOUGHT we were having. And some incidents that I passed over at the time look mighty suspicious in the rear-view mirror. Once my rose-colored glasses fell off, I saw him in an entirely different light.
Wow, so much of this resonates with my M! I too, now see that if I had demanded more and accommodated less my M would have probably been very different. I believe this dynamic is what goes on in my W's R with her father. He treats her badly, insults her when in public. Then he tells her how "sorry" he is for all the bad and how he does really care. Tells her that it was her mom's fault that he didn't have a R with her as she "poisoned" her mind against him and she eats that up.
The public insults and telling her how she's not good enough show her he knows the real her isn't good enough, the private smooshing tells her he still cares about her. By trying to build her self-esteem by assuring her that I saw her differently than she saw herself only told her that once I knew the "real" her, I would no longer love her. She used to tell me all the time when I told her how great she was that I was the only person on earth that saw her that way. In fact she even said that it was because I loved her so that "blinded" me. So, if she didn't see me as perfect, that must mean she really didn't love me. If you love someone they see you as better, which is what she thought I was doing. If she didn't only see the good in me, that must mean she didn't truly love ME.
So sad of a way to live one's life. So, sad that my W was hurt so badly for so long as a child that this is how she ended up seeing herself. The more I learn about MLC and the causes, the more I see that it is a miracle that anyone can ever come out of it once they get there!
