The Goddess of the Goats Sees Into The Future

[TSquared2]

Actually, he sounds more personality disordered, and it's on overdrive at the moment. You know, volume turned up to "11"...before it may have been on a low volume, and therefore, tolerable, maybe even interesting or something.

Check out the book "Emotional Vampires", see if fits.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Goat Gal,

I'm not sure you're going to be wanting my advice, because I'm not sure your actually DBing your husband right now.

I said nothing upsetting last night except my "It's a friggin party under this bus, in case you were confused about that."

No doubt HIS feelings got hurt because I suggested he might have done something wrong in his life. Therefore, I must pay.

Nit picking on my part but you did say something upsetting and on purpose, and you're upset at his reaction?

If you're here because your husband is in an MLC then understanding that an MLC is a sickness helps get a marriage through this.

I have little to no doubt that you as a person will come through this a little scarred and hurt. But generally solid.

I worry however that your husband with his MLC will be dashed against the rocks of your unyielding strength.

Now I admit that I am only reading your most recents post, the ones in the last few months. So maybe you just hit the patch where you're done, alot of us get there, and if so my apologies for not reading far enough back.

On a side note I would have loved to see you play in your band. The bands you mentioned are some of my favorites.

[jim0987]

Hi Goatgal, i might be your codepedant passive aggressuvr nice guy in shinibg armour. just wanted to say I'm working on a considered response to all this (definitely not raising expectations though). Its a little different because of the WA/LB reversal but I can try and put myself in his shoes.

Quick couple of questions for preBd times
- did he ever express openly any concerns?
- did he huff and puff? If so what sort of times?
- if you asked him what's wrong, what was his reaction?

[jim0987]

First off your list of 100 was really good and really positive. Your H is clearly a fool.

I've tried to give this some thought about how i might of reacted or felt given in the circumstances but the massive caveat is that there is a LOT of mind reading and i'm not 100% on my stuff let alone someone else. I hope it helps in some way and i've gone for a strange second person narrative so sorry if some of it seems pointed.

I'm going to start with the cushion and for all of this i'm going to assume the postive that he threw the cushion away without thinking (rather than a deliberate act to annoy you).

So tonight we're down there and he picks up the the note I'd left for him after I saw he'd tossed some of MY things.
A nice note, "Please remember not to throw anything out without checking. Thanks! :)"

He says to me, holding up the note:
"Just so you KNOW, the only thing I REALLY threw away was that old cushion."

If he saw the note before he through the cushion then he is going to be racked with guilt that he did something stupid when he should have known better. he's angry at himself and feeling low self worth that he's let you down. he's kicking himself so he is under attack (even though its him doing the attacking) so his defences are at max. he is trying to minimise the damage by saying its not too bad its only the one thing

TRANSLATION 'please tell me its ok and it doesnt matter so i dont have to feel guilty'

If he didn’t see the note then all of ths ^^^ is probably still going on but now he has 'proof' that you are passively aggressively attacking him because you saw he had thrown the cushion away but rather than speak to him you've left a note. and its all friendly because you are deliberately trying to make him feel bad by showing how superior you are

TRANSLATION 'I've made a mistake we both know that and i feel really guilty but I can offset some of that guilt because you’re just trying to make me feel worse than i need to'

I say: "That's my favorite chair (antique, had it before we were married, sentimental value!) and I wanted that original cushion (a bit raggy but solid and easily covered) to see about replacing or re-covering it.
(TO PUT IN MY NEW HOUSE WITHOUT YOU!!!! Didn't say that.)

He then says, like he's talking to a child: "You KNOW, ANYone who does upholstery can EASILY make a NEW cushion."

So now you’ve validated his guilt and it can set in quite nicely, but to him it’s still recoverable because its easily fixed plus if you agree it’s easily fixed then there is no need for him to feel guilty because it’s your overreaction and it didn’t really matter in the first place.

You didn’t agree so now he has to feel the guilt and because you went quiet and your body language and tone changed he knows you’re upset.

ALL I said was, "Please don't throw away any more items without checking with me, maybe focus on all this construction stuff."

And with this he is now properly angry about it all. Because not only is he feeling guilty for the cushion, but you failed to make him feel better, you’ve not accepted his fix, you haven’t engaged with him in a loving way and on top of all of that you’re not acknowledging everything he is doing to try and sort the basement. He may even think your criticising the way he is doing it

TRANSLATION ‘I got it wrong but its not fair that she then has a go at me when all im doing is trying to help’

And so now he can park some of his guilt because he is the victim in all of this and the cushion is no longer a problem for him

Hey--I know you wouldn't have thrown that cushion away if you knew it was important to me. :--)"
Just as sort of an invitation to see if he would apologize.

I get this snippy response: "Correct."
"gn"

So from his perspective he may have not so much seen an olive branch as seen it as an attempt to extract another apology (his fix was an apology in his head which you rejected) and to make him feel worse. Reopening something that he had parked and dealt with plus he can now say it’s your fault because you didn’t make it clear that it was important to you. His response is shutting it down at a point where he doesn’t have to feel guilty.

Nice. So I said, "Well, we all mistake". "Make mistakes". "Hahah... Get it?" "Sorry... forgot."
(Deliberately vague, thinking, yeah, 'forgot' you have no conscience/sense of humor/are an a$$hat/take anything said as criticism/have to attack people in a passive-aggressive way to make them "pay" for upsetting you...).

Me: "Good Night"
(And yes, I can actually write more than "gf".What is THAT, anyway?)

The key bit here is the "Sorry... forgot." The rest of its fine but when you said "Sorry... forgot." he heard everything you typed in the brackets

it makes him feel bad about HIMSELF and that feeling is MY FAULT and I must be punished

I doubt its about punishing you as such to me its much more likely that he feels bad about himself and he is fighting against anything that forces him to engage with that. He wants to put it back in its box where it can slowly poison him – there will be a lot of fear driving some of this. He also probably wants you to understand in a kind of

‘you make me feel bad and i want you to understand what I’m feeling so I’m going to make you feel like i do’

I know that sounds and would feel like punishing but that’s not his intent. He doesn’t want to hurt you he wants you to know how your hurting him. (even if the hurt your causing is only in his head)


I have no clue if thats helpful or not or even makes any sense but its my translation on living through some of this.

If you want I can try and tackle some of the other bits you’ve raised but I’m hesitant to if its not helpful

[kml]

I think Jim's interpretation above is a pretty good one. Add in "See, she'll never be able to forgive me so this can never work out".

ON the other hand - it's also possible that he isn't actually getting any closer at all, that this is all wishful-thinking mind-reading, and he's just biding his time until he can divorce.

I think the first scenario is more likely, but you never can tell with these MLCers. So I'd suggest just putting away the barbed comments (no matter how justified), and engaging him in fixing up the house (because if it DOES come to divorce it helps YOU if the house is worth more - either it will sell for more or he will have to pay more to buy you out of your share).

Continue to be pleasant, leave the door open, but go about your fabulous GALing too. You can't control whether he will step up to the plate or not. He sounds like he could possibly be taking the first tentative steps out of the tunnel, but he could just as easily slip back into it. He could be finally ready to talk about the divorce, or he might have something else entirely on his mind. All I know is that it's a mistake to spend too much of your time trying to read his mind. Just be fabulous and show him what he's going to be missing.

[GoatGal]

Jack--

I thank you for your input.

Yes, I am still DBIng, big time.
I'm just seeing things more clearly and that means I'm seeing things in our marriage that I had previously either not noticed, or they weren't as pronounced, or I just got complacent.

I have been really down on H in recent weeks, I think in my efforts to detach I went a bit far in the other direction.

But I am very frustrated with him at the moment. I'm sure this is because as he does take a few tentative steps out the tunnel (and, kml, I think this has been what's happening) I get my goshed darned EXPECTATIONS up and then I get more annoyed with him.

True, his behavior has improved immensely since I started DBing. I saw some nice glimpses of the old, best H... and now he's gone.

So--yes, with that "party under the bus" comment, I was giving him a little poke. On the heels of him pointedly ignoring me and being snippy with me prior.

Not an excuse, I know, but sometimes it's just SO HARD to bite my tongue while watching him be so self-centered.

And no, I don't think he's an "Energy Vampire". I read about that. If anything, he's massively Codependent and really can't handle the strong emotional fallout from his affair and subsequent nastiness.

For the most part, I am DBIng to a T. I think the holidays and his jumping back onto the roller coaster is just irritating to me at this point.

I *knew* that he would, and I *thought* I was prepared, but looking back I can say that the real truth was, I was hoping that he was coming around.

That's an expectation---and he didn't meet it. He actually went the other way. So thanks for reminding me by pointing that out. That is the source of my frustration.

I think the other part is me building up a righteous head of steam to handle my emotions if he does push this divorce through.

I want to feel like that's a good thing. Some parts of it are good.
One issue is that I have such great times with my friends and I am enjoying my life, then I have to communicate with this person--previously my best friend and life partner, someone I trusted implicitly--who actually treats me as if I have nothing valid to say, and he just wants to get away from me.

Most of the time, he treats me like I have Ebola, while it seems others really enjoy my company. I'm the same person in both instances. *sigh*


But the fat lady hasn't sung---yet.

I'm not giving up. I have a tremendous amount to lose if there is a possibility that he will indeed wake up and smell the cappuccino.

I know in MLC that towards the end, they do go in and out and revisit a lot of the stages.

Funny, I was just thinking about that last night. That I felt as though I was talking to a little boy who was angry because I told him he made a mistake.

There is this really childish quality in him the last week or so.

kml, I see a lot of this character-shifting in him recently.

Whereas before I say steady progress towards me, now he's saying weird things, getting closer, then retreating, then reverting to a sullen 15 year old, then being Mr. Old and Grumpy, then he's like a 5 year old. (Which is interesting because he was traumatized up through age five, then a few more major traumas later on, which he never dealt with.)

I know I just need to sit tight and take my own advice:
STFU and CTHD.

Good thing I have plans for Salsa dancing tonight, and then got a surprise invite from a girlfriend for an overnight in the mountains, with a bed and breakfast and nice dinner with live music, hiking by the river... it was lovely that she thought to bring ME of all people!

(She'd won a contest and had two tickets.)

So I contrast this ^^^ sort of thing with my H and it's just not conceivable that he could really believe I'm so awful. But he's entitled to his opinion.


So I'm carrying on... really I am.
Just--annoyed. I'll working on my acceptance a bit more, think of him like patient in the mental health clinic where I used to work.

Friendly... but not too friendly.

---(G)GGG

[GoatGal]

Jim---Thank you!!!


I swear it's like you were in the room during the "cushion incident"

That's EXACTLY how it feels.
I can see how my reactions cause this in him.

OMG. So accurate.
----------------------------------------------------

OK---so WHAT DO I DO ABOUT IT?

Suggestions?

I know this is a time-sensitive thing.
I can't pussyfoot around him for the rest of our relationship. That's part of why I'm thinking I might be done.

That dynamic is so unhealthy, and ends up being turned on me. But I can do it for another year. I really can.

And let me say that the discussion about the STUPID cushion was EXTREMELY low key. I was very calm, didn't raise my voice, was really under control. Still, he reacted that way. I hardly accused him, belittled him. HE brought up the note and deflected away from his mistake. I guess his "solution" was his "apology". I never thought of it that way.

But why can't he just say "Sorry, I made a mistake. I won't throw anything else away without asking you." ????? I don't get it.
-----------------------------------------------------------

And you're right. He probably did "hear everything I wrote in the parentheses" even though I didn't say it out loud.

How can I talk to this man without feeling like every minute I'm supposed to massaging his self-esteem? It's exhausting.

Everything seems to upset him, and generally, I'm nice as pie. Really I am.
Yet if I'm too nice, that upsets him too!

Probably that old guilt again. My being nice to him after he's been such a chit to me surely pushes that "she's just trying to be superior/make me feel bad" button. Or maybe,,,"I feel like such a cad and here she is being sweet... now I feel like a worse cad. So it's HER fault again!"

Or it's the "I don't want to be kind to her because it would give her false hope." Which of course is a crock because being kind is a far, far cry from asking to get back together or even having lunch with me.
-----------------------------------------------------

Like I said, it's LOSE : LOSE. No matter how you slice it.

I can't wait to read what you come up with next.

And Jack-Three-Beans---if you're reading this, you can STILL hear me play. I'm out there today but now it's traditional jazz/blues.

However, I'm trying to start a band across the pond with Ggrass as the front woman, and kml kicking it on drums. We'll keep you posted.

We could call ourselves---what say you, ladies?



--(G)GGG

[jim0987]

Your normally my font of advice and wisdom....

For him its not about the cushion. its about everything and everytime he was made to feel not good enough and most probably most of those werent by you but my guess is there is some deeper more fundamental thing between you that dominated his guilt response and if i had to guess (sorry if im overstepping) its that the ranch hasnt/isnt the life he had planned - its been harder and less fun. And thats before you add that mountain of stuff that he should feel guilty for since BD.

in my situation we moved cross country (only 2.5hrs) and it made my W miserable, no matter how many times she said she doesnt blame me for moving (we agreed to move) i still felt guilty about it and she did/does blame me for not moving back when she said she was unhappy - so more guilt on me. That guilt tarnished so much of our interaction that it contributed to the communication problems between my W and I which in turn were a big factor in how we handled all the other problems.

what to do about it............???????????????

without knowing exactly what mental place he is in on a lot of this stuff it would be really easy to make suggestions that go right against everything you've been doing DB wise. what i will say is that if his self loathing is strong enough then no matter what you say or do he will find a way to judge himself poorly(you can test me on this if you like - i pretty much gurantee i can twist anything to put myself down and make it about me being rejected). but then this is why we cant control anyone else.

If i go back to the cushion situation as a specific example then i've been trying to think what the 'best' thing you could have done might have been. [INSERT BIG MENTAL PAUSE WITH LOTS OF COGS WHIRRING]

i think maybe the best option would have been to engage him in the how to fix it maybe something like

'I really wanted that cushion as it goes with my favourite chair. Is it gone, gone or can we fix it?'

this shows that it mattered to you but engages him in the solution as a way to make amends and alleviate any guilt. by talking about can WE fix it removes the blame from the conversation

But why can't he just say "Sorry, I made a mistake. I won't throw anything else away without asking you." ????? I don't get it.

because to say this he would be engaging with his guilt rather than avoiding it and he would then also be yeilding power and control to you as well. I bet if he did say the second part of that it would sound patronising or snarky

out of curiousity does your H have a habit of apologising profusely for small insignificant stuff but rallying against the idea of apologies for stuff that really needs it?

[Ggrass]

Mmmmmm that's good and all great food or thought.

While I was sleepin you guys were fixing the whole world.

The only thing I see about the statement can we fix it or is it gone. My h would have taken that as control.

What he saw as solutions was h would apologise for major events, the event would be forgotten by the end of the sentence by the hurt party with no feelings ever dealt with nor the initial behaviour dealt with.

If he was upset about minor things then it got dragged out dealt with repeated rubbed over etc. it felt very one sided minor transgression by me like messy house was a huge big deal breaker on his list. Nothing he did was important or needed dealing with.

[jim0987]

Calling all Codependent Men!

I mean, if someone tells you that your actions hurt them, is the appropriate response to get angry at them for "attacking your character" and "making them feel bad"?

I think not. But this is how it is.


BUMP^^^

Just reading again to see if I could offer any more insight and this really stood out for me because basically this reflects how my wife thinks I was. I'm not so sure that i was always lije that but I'm willing to believe it.

Its rubbish but its a case of how he feels about himself and how hyped his defences are. You said something negative and that taps into his fear/guilt/shame and triggers defences - its a big 'yeah but....' Like a stroppy teenager. Regardless of how helpful or loving you think you were being he heard 'attack' and so attacked back.

Again its about not wanting to feel guilty and if the other person is out of line you don't have to. Same deal as why a cheating spouse has to make it about how awful the LBS was.

Think of it in mediaeval metaphor terms, if you want to rescue the princess, you've got to climb the walls, sneak past the guards, pick the lock, and quietly wake her and comfort her because if you are seen or she is surprised and screams all hell will break loose as the entire castle goes into lockdown.