KGirl con't

[Maybell]

How terrible would it have to be? My H cheated on me and lied continuously about giving her up, neglected my kids, and got the poshest bachelor pad he could. All he has let us to yank the financial rug out from under me (which I now have the means to cope with) and the destruction would be pretty thorough. And yet I'm still here... Wondering how he could do that stuff to me.

No matter what the reason is we'd just go further back in time to look for the source. The senselessness of it is what makes it such a bad decision on their parts.

[labug]

Hey K, let the future take care of itself. The only thing you can control is you and that will influence your future.

How would knowing the why make things different for you?

[KGirl]

Maybell - you know, I find myself thinking things like "If he cheated, this would be easier. I could be angry at him and if he was actually in love with someone else and that's why he left me, I guess I could understand why he didn't want to try to figure things out with me. Why would you if you already had someone else waiting for you that you were sure would be better?" Or "If we fought all the time and were yelling and screaming at each other, then it would make sense to get a D, because we'd be so unhappy." But, obviously there are many people on this site that have had those things happen, and are still pushing for their M to work or are still wondering why some of those things happened. So, I don't know how much worse it'd have to be. Maybe those things would still not be bad enough. Hard to say without experiencing them.

labug - I've been pondering this quite a bit yesterday and today. Part of it is that when someone does something cr*ppy or that lets me down but there's an explanation, it's easier for me to accept because generally it's beyond their control. Someone is rude to you and you find out they are on the autism spectrum and struggle with social cues. Someone didn't show up for an appointment and I find out it's because they were sick. Someone didn't invite you to something and you find out they accidentally forgot to include your email on the list. Things like that, if that makes sense. Generally the explanations are never what I fear, which is "I just don't like you. I'm an inconsiderate person. Etc." Knowing the explanation gives me a sense of relief. Maybe I'm pushing for answers because I do think there is one but H won't admit it (that he fell for someone else) and I just want him to come clean and admit it and quite hiding from the truth. Him saying it's just who he is can't really be the truth, in my mind, because it just doesn't make any sense. What is "just who he is"? Someone who can't stay in a relationship for the long haul? Someone who needs to sow his oats? I don't know. I get that it doesn't have to make sense to me, and I just need to accept his reasons are his reasons... but I don't know that I've truly accepted that in my "heart" or deep down in my brain.

[labug]

Generally the explanations are never what I fear, which is "I just don't like you. I'm an inconsiderate person. Etc.

I think that's what most of us fear. It brings up our deepest fears about ourselves. We want it to be them, not us.

But when he says this,

Him saying it's just who he is can't really be the truth, in my mind, because it just doesn't make any sense. What is "just who he is"?

you don't buy it. Why?

Why won't you believe that it's not you.

[claire7]

Labug,
I struggle with the same feelings. I think part of it is because I gave my heart to this person, I let myself be so vulnerable, I trusted that I would be loved unconditionally, through good and bad, I thought he was strong and honest and had integrity. And I can't believe I chose a partner so poorly. It's hard to come to terms with how delusional I seemed to have been about him and our relationship. I wonder how I can trust my instinct about another person.

(Overly dramatic and irrational, but that is something I'm working through.)

[labug]

See you have to keep making it about your poor choice, your delusional state, your instincts.

When we get married and become a couple a new entity is formed. Some people do well with it, some don't. Being footloose and fancy free as a single is one thing, add the responsibilities of M, a house, a working spouse, kids-it's suddenly a whole new and sometimes not enjoyable, enterprise.

Some are up for the challenge, some aren't despite perhaps their best efforts. People do change.

Yes, we have our part in that and taking responsibility for and working on what is ours is our work. Part of that is emotional detachment and knowing and protecting our boundaries.

It's also taking in the fact that we have NO control over other people. They do what they do because of their stuff. Do they sometimes react to us? Yes. Should we be compassionate and loving and respectful? Yes. Do we need to take responsibility for our actions? Yes. Do we have to take responsibility for their reaction? NO!

Somewhere inside us we have to be able to love and like ourselves, otherwise we're always looking for someone else to provide that, to validate us. But if we can't see that in ourselves, how can we expect someone else to see it and cherish it. If we treat ourselves like crap that gives every other person on the planet the permission to do the same.

You're both smart, charming, talented, witty women. We who communicate with you here get that. You need to see and cherish what we see very clearly. Challenge yourselves to treat your selves more gently.

Hugs to you both.

[25yearsmlc]

25, thank you again for your words of wisdom I do think that is where I'm stuck right now. It was the first thing I wrote on my list of things to talk about in IC, in terms of where I'm stuck and unable to let go and move on - the fact that I don't understand the WHY of all this. I know there will never likely be an answer. I don't think H even knows why---



. IC said "-- Would knowing (why) really give you the closure you want? Or would you just wonder why you couldn't fix that new thing?" Point taken.

Wow, ^^^ Awesome insightful question from your IC. Damn...that's a great point and I'm SO glad you heard it and you seem to "Get it". Hence my earlier assertion that there is no "good" answer, meaning an answer that would help us sleep or give us peace. Maybe we should say "it's a viral thing"....? ("the new ebola of the heart')


Someone posted this on facebook not too long ago, it sums it up well:
[b]"Giving up the need to know why something has happened to you will definitely count among the most rigorous personal challenges of your life."


Oh man, you are on a roll! That's another GREAT phrase. Very useful and I'm going to adopt it. I have accepted 2 things in my life that were big challenges and this^^ was certainly one of them.

The other was to accept that I can have ambivalent feelings for someone, like my dad (he had great strengths AND great weaknesses). When sober, he was a brilliant teacher and concerned dad. When Not sober, he was an abusive lunatic...

He's no longer with us, but to this day I see my brothers struggle to figure out who or what our dad was and for THEM it's like an identity issue. They are so rolled up in who he was and who they are as men/dads and husbands.

I digress, but I think my point is that sometimes we have to accept a lack of clarity about other people, and hope to heck we have clarity about who WE are.

That goes back to a DB lesson, focus on who/what we CAN control and let go of the rest.


I think at this point in time, I would be able to try and forgive him.


^^ Fair enough. But forgiveness is not automatically understood. In my childhood I never saw what forgiveness looked like so I literally had to learn HOW to forgive. You might want to reflect on how it was modeled in your childhood, if it was.

It's a learned skill, so figure out WHERE/From Whom you'd learn this and learn it EVEN IF you do NOT get back with your h or decide not to recon.

You'll still need to let go of it, and that is PART of (not all, but part of) forgiving. And that piece of it you must do, for you... with or without your h.

You know why, right? ( I dont' want to belabor the point if you already know it).


If we got to the point of actually being D'ed and THEN he wanted to be in a relationship, I don't know about that. That's an awful lot to go through.

Well, fwiw, the 2 family members I have who did just that^^ (divorced, moved on, improved as individuals, and THEN reconciled and remarried) were "all done" for a few years. My aunt and uncle were divorced for 5 years and my cousin, for 3.

When they got the toxic pieces out, and worked on their "best selves" and each really did a LOT of individual work, they dated and had other relationships.

But their child(ten) kept them in touch and eventually the good things that they were first attracted to, kept popping up - and the toxic parts were mostly gone. And they all (all 4 of them) were better communicators. And yes, it was better the second time around.

Just so you know, it can happen. But as far as I know, none of them expected to reconcile. They all (seemed to at least) moved on and worked on themselves...nothing "Tactical" about it. it was authentic change.


If it got that far I think I'd say no, but hard to know until you're in the actual situation.

It's VERY hard to know. Plus when you say "if it got that far" as if there is a point of no return (for ME that would be if the spouse remarried, but again, who knows?)

AND don't forget that real growth can occur without the other person. And that might make them worth meeting anew.

For now, your options are limited but the good news there is that you DO have some clarity. Meaning, you do NOT have to decide "IF" you can forgive or how it would go, all you have to do right now is take care of YOU.

Here's the "secret"...we are in charge of our own happiness and we always were.

But, How to get there?


"Secret Formula" is 180s + GAL = Detachment. OR to say it another way...

180's (= our own flaws being processed and resolved)+ GAL (reaching out of our comfort zone to discover who we are, and reaching out to others as well) = Healthy Detahcment

and Detachment is Key to moving on to the life you were meant to live.

How is your GAL? And the 180s?

I'm going to close with a list of some GAL I did so you have some more ideas. I DO think you must meet NEW people so you can better stop the obsessing AND I also believe strongly that if your GAL activities are not stimulating enough that your mind is taken OFF your h for at least awhile, you need another GAL thing.

Last but Not least, you MUST GAL to Detach.... There are other reasons to GAL but you simply cannot Detach, without GAL.

You need one to do the other...


For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, (even in the winter).
I had 3 kids, including a baby (so it's VERY hard for me to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life.

IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team two summers (my older D was on it one year).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, ( our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy And yes, I still do it. I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Hollywood Improv. (And It went very well! Turns out a lot of folks related).

I learned to cross country ski, & got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to become a target shooter. I became an expert marksman.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish. I got a caribou on a trip and my family ate it for most of the year.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
OMG I loved riding it.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license. (Bucket list item!!)

Went skydiving (Also a bucket list item). Loved it so much I did it again for my 50th birthday. And I plan on doing it again, soon!

I edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent physical shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. I then found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs. Made a new friend.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark of their long LONG cold winters. But I"m here to say it CAN be done).

Saw a therapist and for some months, I went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty & Ignoring them..
(Wish I had joined sooner! There, I met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French --Fun class and good for the brain.
Took a class in Italian cooking--still delicious

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Oh, and other than pilot training/sky diving, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

The more you involve yourself in other's lives and projects, the less painful your situation becomes. And detachment begins.

Keep on keeping on. I KNOW that around the corner are GOOD things for you.

[lifejustgothard2]

25yearsmlc....sorry to T/J but could you stop over at my thread on newcomers titled...Everyone was right...especially 25yearsmlc?

Thank you..

[KGirl]

Wow, lots of things to ponder and reflect on. This is not going to be super organized, but here goes..

labug: As to why I don't believe him when he says it's just "who he is" - that feels like a cop out. The whole "it's not you, it's me" thing generally means "I'm just not into you anymore but want to let you down easy." Heck, I said "it's not you, it's me" to a boyfriend before H when really I dumped him because I was super embarrassed of his social skills (or lack thereof). And why not say that, then? And saying it's just "who he is" is so vague. What exactly about who he is prompted him to do this? He hasn't said. You talked about how some people just aren't up for the challenge. I guess I still don't even get what was challenging - things seemed normal and fine to me. Maybe just the basic obligations/idea of being committed surpassed his challenge level?


25- The more I think about what his reasons could be for leaving me .. the more I realize that no reason would be satisfactory/not have me thinking "well if it's X, why didn't he try Y?" If he was just not in love with me, why didn't he make a choice to be in love and do the work to rekindle that? If he found someone else more compatible, why wouldn't he try and talk to me about what he liked about her and see if that was transferable? MAYBE him having some sort of brain chemical imbalance/depression/mood disorder/neurological thing (like your virus??) would allow me to say "OK, I guess there's nothing he could have done to not feel how he was feeling." But then it'd have to be that he really had no idea that was the issue.. otherwise I'd be asking "why didn't you seek help or medication?"

So, no, there is most likely not an answer for "why" he is doing this that would make more sense to me or make me think "oh, ok, I get it. I see why you felt like you had to do this."

Upon further reflection, I think it's boiling down again to perceptions of others. I want to be able to have a one or two sentence elevator speech for what happened, to tell other family and friends, that makes it about H and not about me. And right now I don't have that, and I want H to provide me something I can use for that, but he can't. If I had to summarize what happened right now, it'd be something like "I'm not sure what happened, he just wasn't happy." And I don't like how that might reflect on me, because it could mean I was a crazy b*tch, or that I was completely clueless about his needs and wants, or didn't listen to anything he said, or who knows what. But people have no way of knowing. I know I shouldn't care what they think, I know it doesn't matter, I know I don't owe anyone an explanation. If I was completely starting over in a new place and a new city and no one knew I was married I don't think this would bother me as much. But I feel this compelling need to explain why it's not my fault and that I didn't want this, but there's not an easy way to do that.

I have some more work to do, obviously! Today we had an "wisdom lunch" where someone who has been working in my profession for a long time shares their wisdom. This person in particular I used to work with directly, and actually lives/lived? a few doors down from my house. Anyways, this person has also gone through some very trying times, but has a few more years on me (about 30!) to base his experiences on. He shared some reflective quotes that really resonated with me, and maybe will for some of you, too:

-a quote from Edwin Freidman: "The colossal misunderstanding of our time is the assumption that insight will work with people who are unmotivated to change. Communication does not depend on syntax, or eloquence, or rhetoric, or articulation but on the emotional context in which the message is being heard. People can only hear you when they are moving toward you, and they are not likely to when your words are pursuing them. Even the choicest words lose their power when they are used to overpower. Attitudes are the real figures of speech."
This is something I knew that I already knew. It's the basic tenant of motivational interviewing/counseling - you can't help people change that don't want to be changed. Maybe it's the universe reminding me of what I need to return to?

-and a quote from Will Rogers: "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." Self-explanatory, I think.

Speaking of things I already know, I think that also hasn't been helping this situation. I have a master's degree in social work and work in a counseling-type profession, so when others I interact with aren't following that template (active listening, not interrupting, using "I" statements, opening up to others, addressing/speaking your needs) it's very frustrating. I have to remember that not everyone knows how to converse like that, and that I shouldn't expect them to just do that naturally... especially H (who was a business major who avoided all social justice/counseling/feelings-type coursework and experiences).

I do need to work on GAL more. I was doing OK but it's really slipped up in the past couple weeks. Work has gotten the better of me in terms of coming home at 6pm and all I have the energy for is eating, watching TV, and going to sleep. I know I shouldn't use that as an excuse and instead figure out ways to delegate some things or take them off of my plate. Here's hoping Thanksgiving and winter break gives me some time to recharge and use my energy towards other activities. As an introvert who works in a talking profession I get so wiped after spending 6+ hours talking to people in a day :S

[labug]

Wow, lots of things to ponder and reflect on. This is not going to be super organized, but here goes..

labug: As to why I don't believe him when he says it's just "who he is" - that feels like a cop out. The whole "it's not you, it's me" thing generally means "I'm just not into you anymore but want to let you down easy." Heck, I said "it's not you, it's me" to a boyfriend before H when really I dumped him because I was super embarrassed of his social skills (or lack thereof). And why not say that, then? And saying it's just "who he is" is so vague. What exactly about who he is prompted him to do this? He hasn't said. You talked about how some people just aren't up for the challenge. I guess I still don't even get what was challenging - things seemed normal and fine to me. Maybe just the basic obligations/idea of being committed surpassed his challenge level.

This may sound like a 2x4 but you and I have known each other a long time here. I don't think anyone learns by being beaten about the head.
That being said, who made you judge of whether he's copping out and if he is, isn't that good information to have? This is who he is. He blames you for all the unhappiness in his life. He said he felt forced into marriage, or something close to that.

What if he came to you with a list of whys. What would you do with that? Would you believe him then?

Set yourself a small goal for doing GAL this week. Do something nice for yourself while you're at it.