Jim0987 #5 - working on cat like readiness

[Vanilla]

From an earlier post of yours

Thanks to some outstanding advice here, a lot of reading and a good IC; I'm getting myself to a place where I am really trying to work on me. My key goals (in short form) are

1) be more alpha male
2) engage with emotions in a grown up and compassionate way
3) act from love not fear
4) set and enforce boundaries
5) be me, but the me I want to be.
6) detach properly

So that's where I am. hopefully this thread will continue my progress and you never know my W might even notice.

How will your new strategy meet those goals? Mozza Advice looks spot on to me. In 3 above you say the word act, you do not use the word say. You also talk about becoming 'the me I want to be' and say you wish to 'detach properly.'

Dearest Jim you are doing so well with the DB. Your actions by not closing the door, by not back lashing are enough. I suggest this letter may set you back a little.
Carry on DB tactics that you do so well.
Peace and a restful mind
Vanilla
Wish I knew how to quote properly!

[Mozza]

I have no expectation of her believing me in the slightest about not fearing me

Then why are you saying it? It seems to make the rest of your paragraph moot.

In my heart I know my M is done and was some time ago, my opportunity to change came and went long before BD without me noticing. Despite that I'm not quite ready to completely throw in the towel even if I am just setting myself up for being crushed all over again.

Yet you are throwing the towel by doing some things backwards. DBing is not about giving up on your M, it's about doing what works. It's our best bet to save our M.

I'm very much in the camp that is holding onto foolish hope but at the same time knows the true goal is to improve me.

Then you're ahead of me. I'm still DBing because I want to save my M. Improving me is a side benefit. I don't hold myself as an example.

But yes your amendments to the RobX thing - I could deliver that and nearly be OK with that. I am getting there in my mindset I just still have a bit too much 'I love her' stuck in there.

Way too much. None is just enough. Remember: your W doesn't hear "I love you", she hears "I want to hurt you".

I have the same pain, except I'm lucky that my W moved out some time ago. I understand how you feel. It's hard to think straight. You could make a list of the DB behaviors that you need to adopt to turn around your M, then give yourself a grade (out of 10) for each on how well you implement it.

[jim0987]

On the plus side I do most of my backsliding here....

I am sticking to actions and I've not raised the R in a while. I guess I just want to know that she knows there is a way back and that I'm not going to 'punish' her for the A (she will still have work to do though)

But actually at the right opportunity and in the right way ' I don't want this' is probably all I need to say

I think I will do that scorecard later this evening.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim

I lack the time for a lengthy reply atm, but 2 thoughts just surfaced in me.

First, I just noticed the ages of your kids (sorry I overlooked that before).

A toddler and an "almost toddler/infant", (40 months and 18??)

I'm not sure how your w's pregnancy went, or the delivery or the recovery time or if she had any post partum issues, but I do know that a study of long term marries reflected something very relevant to me personally.

The study said that couples in long term marriages (i.e. the ones who made it) reported their lowest level of marital satisfaction was in the first 2-3 years after the birth of their 2nd (or third, if applicable) child".

It really makes sense. I have been a stay at home mom, a part time worker/mom and a working full time mom (as a L, in a well paid job).

Our 3rd child came years after our first 2, so she's an outlier

so I'll just refer to our 2nd child's birth, which happened while I worked full time.

H was in medical school when she was born. I have to say that it's good I was so much younger then....my life was physically demanding, my job had unpredictable hours with trials and deadlines.

When she was about 15 months old, Desert Storm came along and we were both active duty Army. So I had LONG hours and tension filled weeks, my h had unrelentingly long work weeks at the hospital, which meant when he was home, physically, he was so tired that he was either useless or worse, quite irritable.

His work involved burn patients and the most critically injured, so many of them died, sometimes in front of him. He often seemed depressed about his work, although we both knew it was not going to be forever.

I could not count on him for childcare and neither of us slept thru the night for a long time anyhow. I mean like 2 years. We had to take turns when our schedules allowed it but usually it was on me to get up b/c somehow we saw h's work as needing him to be more rested than me.

I might still believe that^^ but there were days his choices were overseen by superiors and mine were not. Still, it's hard to compete with a dying patient for your h's time, as I and our children learned early on. Simply put, often, his work was seen as more important than our daily needs. (I'm not even sure I don't still believe that).

Our oldest took forever to put to bed and my life when Not at war - was to get up Earlier than I naturally would,

and feed the kids and dress them to get to daycare, Dress myself and put make up on, somehow with two kids that age (in hindsight, they were so well behaved!) then drive kids to daycare and drive self to work. This took an hour when we had a short commute, a lot longer when we lived in a bigger city.

LATER, Get off work and IF I got off on time, (way worse when I could not leave on time)

then I'd go get the kids, (or beg a friend in the area to get them for me) Then take them home and interact, hope nothing is wrong or unhappy in either child OR needed at school,
then make dinner--which I prepared for at the store over the weekend and will have to do again the following weekend,
then clean up dishes, bathe kids and put them to bed --(time consuming but also the best part of my day,)

and then check financial matters/bills, or worry, and then get ready for bed myself.

Then, at 10pm or later, just feel be exhausted. Try to pick up that 'great book" I wanted to read or watch a favorite show, but essentially mostly just waiting for the next day...all in the hopes of having some "Fun/free" time on the weekend later on...oh, and that's when I don't have a h around to interact with and who might Not actually lessen my load but rather, might increase it...

after a year of this^^, or more,

you begin to ask the haunting questions "Is this it? Is THIS my life?" You dream about another life...

So the rallying cry comes, "Time for a change!" And so it is.


But hopefully not the time to end a marriage. Rather the time to restructure one's life. For US, a geographic move to a cheaper place helped b/c our commute shrank and our bank account grew, without any other changes being made yet.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out how we underestimate the role chronic fatigue and self neglect can play. I so hope you can navigate this hard time.

Food for thought....

[jim0987]

OK mozza - challenge accepted.

Here is the list of small actionable changes i made a few days ago with my report card of how I'm doing.

1) Get a life – Always have a plan for tomorrow, whether that is with the kids, with friends or on my own, I should have a plan.
2) Detach – Slow my reactions and ask myself what am I feeling about this
3) Detach – ask myself does it matter, if it doesn’t let it go.
4) Detach – base my actions on what i think is right not on expectations of what i will get the return
5) PMA – at every situation ask myself what is the positive here? Remind myself that happy thoughts lead to happy people
6) PMA – appreciate what is good and show my appreciation for others
7) PMA – reduce the negativity, criticism and sarcasm in my words (it is not always perceived as intended)
8) Confidence – remind myself what is good about me and my life, especially if i'm feeling anxious or starting to make mental comparisons
9) Confidence – Practice confidence in my body language and thoughts (daily in front of the mirror as well)
10) Empathy – Validate other people's feelings, they are their feelings and so cant be ‘wrong’
11) Empathy – Listen, really listen to what is being said
12) Empathy – Speak with care and compassion
13) Empathy – Dont offer a solution unless im asked for one.
14) Lead – be decisive when i need to be, be assertive in my decisions
15) Boundaries – understand, respect and enforce my boundaries

1) I do have a decent range of plans for days I don't have the kids though its getting expensive. They aren't enough to fully distract me though.
6/10

2) I’m doing alright at slowing my reactions particularly in relation to my wife but i have notice that its made me a little more fraught elsewhere in my life. The slower reactions are doing ok but at this stage its more catching myself than stopping the negative thoughts and reactions
5/10

3) Actually this is doing well. Theres a lot of things that used to really bother me and now i just simply don’t seem to care. Other things i’m much more relaxed about so i think this is good
8/10

4) Much much better than i used to be on this although I do still have a big issue in that i keep hoping that my wife will notice and think more positively. That she will want to engage with me rather than just sit in her room texting people. Im not frustrated but i am disappointed and i need to be careful this doesn’t turn into resentment.
3/10

5) Not doing this as consciously as I think i need to but my thoughts are generally more happy. Certainly im looking less for the negatives than i think i used to.
5/10

6) I’m doing much better at saying thankyou and appreciating others. I’m also doing a better job of appreciating myself so this isn’t too bad. I am still on quite the rollercoaster though.
6/10

7) Much, much better at this. Hardly any negativity and sarcasm in what i say though i feel there is still anger and frustration in my tone. I’ve made improvements but i’m a long way short of where i want to be as its just not instinctive enough yet.
4/10

8) So this is two parts really. The first about reminding myself what is good about me and my life is going really well i would say 8/10 well. However i find myself making lots of negative comparisons still which is more 2/10.
Overall 5/10

9) Really consciously being more open and confident in my body language and it already feels a little less uncomfortable. I’ve also noticed that it seems to make my W a little uncomfortable but i’m not sure why that is and i don’t want to speculate. I’m not doing so good in making sure i do my daily practice as i still feel self conscious which is absurd but......
4/10

10) I’m doing ok here, it’s not automatic and I’ve missed a few opportunities but actually outside of my wife I am doing quite well here. Wife is just an awkward situation as I’m second guessing so much and she is hiding her feelings from me (and herself)
6/10

11) I’m ‘hearing’ more of what is being said to me in terms of underlying feelings but its a bit delayed while my brain processes. Not quite good enough to really help during the conversations however i am doing a better job of listening
6/10

12) This is good, and given how up and down my emotions are i think actually im doing really quite well. I less argumentative and clearer about my feelings. I think this has really kept some situations that may have escalated down to a more sensible level
7/10

13) This is going ok i think. I had a real success with a friend who phoned me because she was upset. I went to give a solution but instead tried to engage with her feelings and about half an hour later she sent me a text to thank me for making her feel so much better.
7/10

14) Where I’m making decisions for me then yes. I’ve made a few reactive decisions which haven’t gone well. For example saying I want to take down the wedding photos which caused a bit of a disagreement and then I haven’t taken them down because i don’t really want to. (other issues going on here i think)
6/10

15) This feels like it is going surprisingly well though my enforcing of boundaries isn’t as calm and controlled as i would like. I’m being a bit too confrontational rather than confidently assertive which could be coming across as condescending and snarky. Its different but I don’t know really as i cant judge from inside
6/10

1) Be more alpha male
2) Engage with emotions in a grown up and compassionate way
3) Act from love not fear
4) Set and enforce boundaries
5) Be me, but the me I want to be
6) Detach properly

In relation to these:
I’m still a long way off being an alpha male – i’m still kind of snarky, jealous and scared beta. I am still a leader through position and authority rather than someone who leads through who i am and what i inspire.

I am doing a lot better in engaging with emotion, particularly my own – this has been a pretty big change for me.

I feel like im acting more out of love than fear but i cant be sure. I feel like i can really empathise with my W and while im still angry i feel like I would be able to forgive and move past all of this but i have a concern that actually i’m just tricking myself because I want her back.

Boundaries I already covered

I’m still working out who the me i want to be is but i’ve got much more of a sense of this and definitely feel im making progress

Detaching from my wife – nope, not even close. I still love her, still want her back and desperately miss her. That she is so cold and distant, that she thinks so poorly of me, that she would just give up on me, cheat on me and that she would tell her friend things that i’ve desperately tried to know for years hurts me immeasurably. I’m being positive, i’m feeling better, i’m getting on with my life but underneath it all i am utterly heartbroken.

I’ve got a good PMA mostly and its best round my wife, but its draining and means i’m tired and am more easily stressed by other issues in my life (the kids can stress me more than used to for example.

So all in all i’m doing ok but there is a lot of room for improvement which actually is no bad thing because if I was perfect and still in this situation then that would be depressing.

Overall i’m going to give myself 5/10

key must improves are
- More assertive and confident
- improve tone and delivery when being assertive
- Detach from my W and her emotions
- Try to stop dwelling on how i dont want this

[jim0987]

Thanks 25,

I do believe that the kids have been a big part of this as awful as it sounds. My W complained she had no time for her because she felt all she did was go to work and deal with the kids. and then on top of that she had to deal with me not connecting with her emotions and also being tired and irritable. I felt pretty much the same way and thats ignores any other issues we each had in our marriage

we have no local support network and my W doesnt have many friends nor does she make them easily. She also wouldnt let anyone other the MIL (who lives 2.5 hrs away) baby sit and so we couldnt go out or do anything.

I took the view that this was a phase and that we would get through it and as the kids grew it would get easier, I thought my wife also felt that but i was wrong, she was instead disengaging from the R and started looking for her happiness elsewhere (encouraged by her friend and her sister i might add)

around BD all my W would say is 'I dont want this' no other explanation or detail - she refused to say anymore as she didnt see the point. over a couple of days this turned to 'I dont want to be together and I dont love you' which in turn has then turned into (spoken to others because she wont talk to me) 'I hate him, he is a liar and $h!^' and 'I cant believe i ever found him attractive' and 'he is a controlling bully who drove a wedge between me and my family'

I know i've not been a great husband these last few years and i'm working on these issues but i cant help but feel that she just wants a complete escape from a life she was found was grinding her down and it is the escape that is most important. everything else is being reinterpreted to potray me in the worst possible way.

when she did talk to me before BD it was when her emotions were up and I was way too defensive so we never had the proper calm conversation that was needed

Ive no way of knowing whether i've completely misjudged the hows whys and wherefores but what i do know for certain is that I could be more like the husband that i should have always been and this is why.

- I am different now, i know it, i feel it.
- I now know that all my anxieties and insecurities came from being treated like I didnt matter as a kid. I just wanted to belong and was paralysed by the fear of rejection. I'm not over them yet but i have faced them and understand them which has diminished them greatly. (also confronting my dad on some of this helped)
- I can recognise my triggers. I am conciously taking control of my defences so that i do not hurt others because i'm hurting. It means i escalate less and there is a better chance of finding a meaningful solution
- I am recognising emotions and choosing to engage with those rather than my reactively offering solutions
- I have felt a level of sadness and emptiness i didnt know existed and I have been comforted and support in ways thay i had never seen before. this is new insight and new skills that i can apply in my future
- Im learning about boundaries and getting better at setting these and enforcing these
- I am learning to control my fears and expectations and with it my confidence, tone and body language.
- I am much, MUCH more concious of how my actions and behaviours can hurt and be seen negatively irrespective of my intent and that i shouldnt dismiss how someone else percieves what i said or did
- I have taken on so much knowledge and wisdom from others such as yourself about relationships and behaviour, stuff that had never crossed my mind before. I have always been good at applying this sort of stuff to my life
- And I still love her, that despite all this I want to share my life with her.

I was always prepared to make the external changes needed to make this life work for both of us its just i needed to also recognise the internal ones that were also needed.

Its a conversation i'd love to have with my wife but she is no longer in that place emotionally and she will be gone physically gone as soon as she can be.

Back to your point though, I think we've had it pretty easy compared to what you described but in the end as much as I love them, toddlers are draining and without the right support or the right effort its tough on a marriage.

and its the kids who will lose out the most.

[jim0987]

This morning took a weird turn. My W got very uncomfortable and anxious when we talked about my dad coming to visit at the weekend - fully understandable as its a reminder to her that it doesn't feel like her home any more. I didn't validate any of this because she didn't say anything and so it was just reading body language (and mind but I'm pretty confident on this one)

As I left for work our goodbye was very very awkward. To be honest I nearly went to kiss her as I would have done hundreds of times in the past. I stopped myself quickly but I guess she noticed as she looked really uncomfortable and if I'm honest revolted. My PMA crashed at this point so its a good thing I was leaving for work.

Overall our interaction is very limited but friendly(ish) It feels like its mostly forced civility on her part and she regularly retreats to her bedroom for a few minutes.

As soon as the kids are in bed she will put as much distance between us as she can and its definitely clear her preference is that we aren't in the same building.

So the question I have is that the mantra is 'do what works' but I have no idea what is working - anyone got any suggestions for knowing what is working or not.

The distance is huge and feels like its just getting bigger. But in truth that's to be expected when our marriage in reality lasted 1 month.

[Mozza]

Wow! That's a detailed assessment. It's especially good that you made a short list of priorities at the end because you can't work on everything, not now. Get back to this post in a few weeks and see how and where you progressed.

[sandi2]

I do believe that the kids have been a big part of this as awful as it sounds. My W complained she had no time for her because she felt all she did was go to work and deal with the kids. and then on top of that she had to deal with me not connecting with her emotions and also being tired and irritable. I felt pretty much the same way and thats ignores any other issues we each had in our marriage

My experience was similar. Probably not as stressful as 25yrs. My babies were close together, and the last pregnancy/delivery left me with some physical problems that caused me constant pain (won't go into details) and I had to learn to "just live with". I had to work full time. My H is from the old school that thinks the man is done once he comes home from work. About all he would do was watch the kids if they stayed in the room where the TV was, so he could watch his shows. So, I had the cooking, cleaning, washing, sterilizing baby bottles and fixing baby formula every night (no dryer, and had cloth diapers). (Yes, it was a long time ago. ) We never went out to eat or anywhere b/c he didn't want to and we never had the extra money to spend on us. I can identify with the depression and loneliness. He never connected emotionally, either. I was only 22 and really had no friends (b/c we had also moved to a new town). So I can relate.

Moving was no new experience for me, but I was young and needed friends and wanted my H and I do something together sometimes! However, I don't remember wanting to D him b/c of the situation. Something I don't quite understand about your W is how she wants time for "her" and to hear you talk, she seems as if she resents the children to some extent. You say she couldn't make friends easily, but then she went out to find what made her happy. Maybe I'm not being as sympathetic b/c of how she throws in your face about how she had the babies and "struggles" caring for them. What does that mean? She can't handle them? They wear her out or get on her nerves? Is that why she has to have these nights out....to get away from the kids? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to beat up on her, but when I got M, I understood that this all came with having a family. Maybe I am seeing some entitlement in her that's not there, IDK. I do believe everyone needs a little "me" time, but why blame your S? Did she ever say exactly what she wanted to do with "her" time without you and the kids?

I am not defending your part of breakdown of the M, but I think she has blamed you for some things you had no control over, and has blamed you and tried to make you feel guilty for her unhappiness. But you said she decided to go find what made her happy. She should have been responsible for her own happiness all along, instead of blaming her H and/or her children for being "stuck".

I know i've not been a great husband these last few years and i'm working on these issues but i cant help but feel that she just wants a complete escape from a life she was found was grinding her down and it is the escape that is most important. everything else is being reinterpreted to potray me in the worst possible way.

The above paragraph describes every WAW! Nope, nothing new there. So I am saying this with a real sweet tone of voice....you need to get pass this. Do not get stuck here. Move forward and stop rehashing this and beating yourself up. You are taking responsibility for your mistakes. That's what you should do. However, you're taking responsibility for her mistakes too. I don't think it is your responsibility. Everyone is responsibility for their own actions. And every time you rewrite all this again, you tie yourself to the whipping post.

So the question I have is that the mantra is 'do what works' but I have no idea what is working - anyone got any suggestions for knowing what is working or not.

Are you kidding me? Your memory must be shorter than mine! Look at what you wrote in the post right before this one.

- I am different now, i know it, i feel it.
- I now know that all my anxieties and insecurities came from being treated like I didnt matter as a kid. I just wanted to belong and was paralysed by the fear of rejection. I'm not over them yet but i have faced them and understand them which has diminished them greatly. (also confronting my dad on some of this helped)
- I can recognise my triggers. I am conciously taking control of my defences so that i do not hurt others because i'm hurting. It means i escalate less and there is a better chance of finding a meaningful solution
- I am recognising emotions and choosing to engage with those rather than my reactively offering solutions
- I have felt a level of sadness and emptiness i didnt know existed and I have been comforted and support in ways thay i had never seen before. this is new insight and new skills that i can apply in my future
- Im learning about boundaries and getting better at setting these and enforcing these
- I am learning to control my fears and expectations and with it my confidence, tone and body language.
- I am much, MUCH more concious of how my actions and behaviours can hurt and be seen negatively irrespective of my intent and that i shouldnt dismiss how someone else percieves what i said or did
- I have taken on so much knowledge and wisdom from others such as yourself about relationships and behaviour, stuff that had never crossed my mind before. I have always been good at applying this sort of stuff to my life
- And I still love her, that despite all this I want to share my life with her.

I would say that's quite of bit of work since you have first arrived! You are doing what works. Just b/c you have seen not seen changes in her yet, doesn't mean nothing is working. Remember Jim, she isn't getting the information you are receiving. She's not working on herself, and certainly not on the M. It will take time for her to believe in your changes, and most of all for her to change her mind & her direction. She has more ahead of her in many ways than you do.

[claire7]

Jim,
Your kids are pretty young. Is it possible your W has/had PPD that was not treated? In response to what Sandi wrote above, it is quite common (and commonly underdiagnosed), and can cause those feelings Jim describes-- feeling overwhelmed, resenting kids/H, etc. Sometimes what looks like a sense of entitlement or laziness is actually deep pain and fear. I know from experience.

The fear of leaving kids with a babysitter seems to fit...it is irrational.

As a working mom, I often feel like I can't win-- I feel guilty for not being home enough (last night I stayed at work an extra hour to meet a deadline and my D called me a "bad mom".), I feel like a slacker at work, I used to resent a LOT. (When I had PPD I resented my H because he got to leave the house to go to work, instead of appreciating the time with my D! Disordered thinking).

If your W also has trouble making friends, it sounds like she's got a bunch of inner stuff going on. Maybe I am living vicariously through your W, but i remember how desperately I wanted kindness and compassion from my H. I wanted some acknowledgement of how tough it is to be a working mom with young kids. And though I needed help for the depression, finding an IC felt like an impossible task. I needed help to get help.

I dunno.. looking at it through this lens maybe you have a real chance to turn this around.