Blindsided, that was then, this is now

[SunnyB]

It's one thing for a person in the congregation to be acting this way, a total different thing for a leader of the church.

Jefe, I hear you and agree. I just don't really know how it will all play out. I'm sure that if I made a big deal about the adultery, there would be pressure for him to step down from the leadership role. But I'm not going to. So, if people don't know, they can't be outraged. It will just be another couple who separated (bless their hearts) and no one will really know why. They can't be mad about what they don't know, and I don't feel like I can be or should be the one to tell them.

Really, this all depends on how my boss handles it. And I don't see him taking a stand because that would jeopardize one of his worship services at a time that he needs to support it the most because of some unpopular changes he made to the schedule at the beginning of this program year. So this is almost personal for my boss, and I'm not sure he would take a moral stand against himself. I don't think I'm explaining that well, and I don't mean to make my boss out to be an immoral guy, he's certainly not, he's a fine priest. It's just difficult to explain. Jefe, you may have a better handle on church politics than most because of your W, but everyone else is probably either scratching their heads or offended right now.

[Jefe]

I get it, and trust me I wouldn't say anything about it either, I was just wondering.

[SunnyB]

Did you always agree with his decisions?

No

Were they always the best for the family?

Maybe? I don't think we've come to any harm because of them.

Were you sometimes resentful?

Yes

Were you concerned about his reactions if you disagreed with him?

Yes. I wasn't concerned while I was explaining my position, but I was concerned that if I actually took a stand that contradicted his, then I would be criticized, or thrown under the bus to the kids.


Here's an example: At the end of the last school year, D16 wanted to go on a trip that I opposed. I had a pretty solid list of reasons why I considered it a bad idea. I explained them to D16, and explained them to my H, but left the final decision in his hands. She went. I didn't agree with his decision, and yes I was resentful that he didn't back me up, yet I had deferred the decision. But in the end, nothing bad happened, so I can't say that his decision was wrong.

If he had said no but told D16 that he was only backing up my decision and he didn't agree with it, I'd have still been resentful. I wanted him to say no and offer up the reasons I gave, even if he privately didn't agree with them. I wanted some validation as a mother.

Maybe that's too much to ask of H. I did in fact tell him the final decision was his. I recognized that I lean towards the over-protective side and thought he'd be more balanced. I just thought my list of reasons was solid and he'd see it my way. But he didn't and I shouldn't resent that.

It was my choice to defer to him, but then I resented his decision. How does one let go of that resentment?

[Underdog]

rpp,

Glad you had a terrific weekend. And it's even better that you had time and space to think to and from. I'm glad it was a good one!

I don't think I have shared this one with you. It was a gift to me from my IC and it rings so true that I have to share it with you.

Resentment occurs when we expect others to take care of our needs when we are not doing it ourselves.

From what you just posted, here's how I interpret that. You deferred all final decisions to your H, silently expecting him to back you up, and were disappointed when he overruled your feedback.

I also interpret that you feel you don't have a voice that is heard. That means an equal partnership from where I sit. Your H devalues your opinions because you have taught him that it's okay to do so.

I'm not saying that you might not have a valid reason for avoiding a brouhaha... but if it's conflict avoidance for the sake of conflict avoidance, what is the root cause of this? Were you taught as a young girl that your voice wasn't important? And since you offered a clue (your R with your dad), is there a possibility that you were hoping to resolve this R with your dad through your H?

Little tidbit of insight here - because many of us here (and I think it's an overwhelming majority) choose mates to resolve conflicts within our family of origin. You know... the people who look for acceptance from a parent who seem destined to be in relationships with people who will never give it. That kind of thing. My XH has a good deal in common with my dad. Most of it's good. Some of it is dysfunctional. The root causes are different, but it apparently was in my overall plan to deal with passive aggressive men.

I'd be interested to hear more about your R with your dad.

I'm also not saying that you shouldn't expect validation from your H. But you guys have communicated this message poorly and he's taken the upper hand. I'd feel resentment too. But go back to that little saying my IC shared with me and absorb that. Because it's nothing short of 100% true.

Sounds to me that you are realizing that your voice needs to take center stage and you are the only person who can make that happen? Change is uncomfortable, rpp. But you have to tell people what you need in order for them to give it to you. Those that love you and care about you will work toward compromise, at the very least. As long as you start these dialogs with "I feel" instead of "You make me" you'll get the leverage you need to be heard. Then it's up to you to figure out if these people who should have your back really do, and then devise a plan to work YOUR plan if they consistently choose to hurt you.

But again, it starts with you. You're getting there.

Hugs-
Betsey

[labug]

Dayum, she's good.

We can't abdicate our power and then be upset when things don't go our way. When we give up our power, we give up our voice.

That tactic is unfair to everyone involved.

(( )) I know you're coming up against some really tough realizations. Dig deep.

[SunnyB]

Whew! Here we go

Resentment occurs when we expect others to take care of our needs when we are not doing it ourselves.

Love this. Printed it out, in purple, and taped it in my office for absorption.

From what you just posted, here's how I interpret that. You deferred all final decisions to your H, silently expecting him to back you up, and were disappointed when he overruled your feedback.

I also interpret that you feel you don't have a voice that is heard. That means an equal partnership from where I sit. Your H devalues your opinions because you have taught him that it's okay to do so.

All totally accurate

but if it's conflict avoidance for the sake of conflict avoidance, what is the root cause of this? Were you taught as a young girl that your voice wasn't important? And since you offered a clue (your R with your dad), is there a possibility that you were hoping to resolve this R with your dad through your H?

I learned conflict avoidance from my parents without a doubt. I never heard them fight, ever. I didn't hear them in discussions that weren't fights. Shoot, they barely spoke for most of the years I was growing up. My mom at some point told me that my dad had some explosive anger outbursts in the beginning of their marriage and she learned to "walk on egg shells". I don't know the real story, but that's how it was packaged to me. Their 60th anniversary is next month.

I'm not so terribly sure that I didn't feel listened to myself as a child. Maybe. My sister and I fought verbally all growing up, no huge surprise. But my impression is that those fights were often resolved with my being forced by my mom to give in just to end the conflict. I was going to complain about it less than my sister was so I got the short end of the stick, no matter who was right or wrong. Again, I don't know if that's totally true or not, but that's where I sit now.

I'd be interested to hear more about your R with your dad.

Well, what I was pondering along the drive is why my dad never told me growing up, never tells me still, that he loves me. I always say it to him, I don't get it back, and I don't expect it, but I want him to hear it anyway. I know that he does love me, he just doesn't say it verbally. In fact, even my mom growing up would say "love ya" used as a parting remark. It wasn't until I got to know H's family that I got comfortable with a full-on "I love you" said out loud and without apology by someone who expected to hear the same thing back.

My dad was not an involved dad. My mom did all the kid stuff. Dad paid the bills, kept the house repaired, the yard mowed, the tv shows watched. He didn't interact with us girls much, didn't tell me I looked nice, didn't come to my sports games, didn't attend church (or anywhere else) with us. If I asked him what he thought of some outfit I'd purchased, he'd reply that it was practical (high praise) or not.

I can count the number of times he took me out somewhere for fun, just the two of us. (Once, a movie). When my nephew was a baby, I saw my dad reading a book to him and realized that he had *never* sat and read with me.

So I was wondering about all that on the drive. I love my dad and he loves me, but our interactions were not warm and fuzzy. I know the wisdom that we marry our dads, but I don't see that it applies here.

But you have to tell people what you need in order for them to give it to you.

And this is where I start making excuses to protect myself. Yes, in order to get something I'd have to ask for it. But if I never ask, then I can't get rejected and/or criticized. Time to watch a little Brene Brown.

[jim0987]

That's some good advice. Just want to add 2c from the other side of that equation - it can really feel like a compromise has been agreed without knowing that the compromise was actually just appeasement. That can make your S rssent the resentment.

You could look up the principle of enthusiastic agreement.

[Underdog]

LOL, Bug... I'd say this lesson was something hard earned for both of us?

rpp--I hope you realize that the only reason I have something to offer on this topic is because it's a road that required me to do the same work? My XH and I were both guilty of this dynamic. And the resentment took a long time to work out (with work). And just so you know, my XH let time be his cure. So periodically, he expects me to know what he wants or needs from me (in terms of the kids or help with the schedule or something obviously not maritally speaking), and then allows that resentment to seep in with me. The me now calls him on it.

When he does it, he gets snarky. I start by asking him straight up if I've done something that has annoyed him. We've worked past the passive aggression, so he'll either tell me no or yes. When the answer is no, he'll step back and apologize and tell me what the real issue is and apologize again for being snarky. If the answer is yes, then I ask him what he needs from me. It becomes our reset button. I hold him accountable for telling me what he needs, and when it is in my power, I accommodate him. If I can't, we work out some sort of remuneration. Again, ours are parenting issues.

It was awkward and weird at the beginning, and he didn't trust me not to react or exact revenge in my petty little way. I had to teach him how to trust me again. It took time and consistent effort, and I had to really work at not getting pissed off when I didn't get my way. Initially, he bucked me because he reveled in his newfound happiness to hear his voice. Then after awhile, that novelty wore off and he realized that his childishness was affecting his relationships with others. So he opted to get serious about working with me and we've never looked back.

Good communication requires a lot of work - at least in the beginning when you've had hidden contracts and expectations that have clouded everything. Work on the resentment and everything seems better.

I had to start with saying no when I needed to say no. I was always that person who said yes to everything and then got pissed off that I allowed someone to talk me into something because it suited THEIR needs. It's good exercise to say no when you might even mean maybe. And don't explain yourself - because that's usually my undoing. A good defense never needs an offense.

[Underdog]

And here we go, back atcha!

I learned conflict avoidance from my parents without a doubt. I never heard them fight, ever. I didn't hear them in discussions that weren't fights. Shoot, they barely spoke for most of the years I was growing up. My mom at some point told me that my dad had some explosive anger outbursts in the beginning of their marriage and she learned to "walk on egg shells".

You and my XH share this dynamic in common. In fact, he and his brother witnessed very long periods (one as long as 4 months) where his parents did not talk at all. They talked to each other through their sons. And my XH and BIL HATED it. HATED IT. My XH didn't do this with me. He and his brother were also told (and the "rule" enforced) that if you don't have anything good to say, keep your mouth shut. The "good to say" rule included addressing anything that was bothering them. So they both internalized it. To this day, they use alcohol as their means of tamping down their unhappiness, and the only way they can confront is if they have a few drinks under their belt to get the courage to do it. And when they do it that way, they diminish the importance of the topic at hand.

Fast forward to our marriage and he used the same coping mechanisms with me. They flat out did not work. And because he didn't work this out before, it changed flavors with me. I grew up in an excessively vocal, fighting household. So I railed on him. We bring our unresolved coping mechanisms into our relationships, one way or another.

So maybe you weren't told that you shouldn't have a voice, but you were certainly modeled behaviors that discouraged active conflict resolution.

Well, what I was pondering along the drive is why my dad never told me growing up, never tells me still, that he loves me. I always say it to him, I don't get it back, and I don't expect it, but I want him to hear it anyway.

I think many of us here on the forum have experienced this one way or another. My maternal grandmother was the daughter of English immigrants, and she was very similar to this. "Keep a stiff upper lip" "Don't blather emotional stuff" (which included stating your feelings and telling others that you love them), and our perennial favorite, "What will the neighbors/they/whoever think?" My mom was in your shoes, and always wondered why her friends had parents who could openly say they were loved but not her. Though deep down inside she knew she was loved. It was just that my grandmother did what *she* was modeled and didn't know how to be anyone else. It was a foreign concept to her because her family did not show emotion. Ever. And if you did let it out, you were shamed. It made everyone uncomfortable, so it was your fault.

She married my dad, who came from a completely emotive background. The first time she met my grandmother, my Gmom kissed her and welcomed her back. She was appalled and very, very uncomfortable. My mom is not a self help guru, but she said that she realized then and there that this was her ticket to creating the kind of life she wanted going forward. She started by telling her mom that she loved her. I don't know how long it took for my grandmother to realize that it was okay, but eventually she succumbed to the American emotive way. By the time I came along, she was well okay with telling us all she loved us. In fact, the last thing she told me in 1992 was, "You know I love you, kid?" Yep, I did.

So maybe you do what my mom did and just flat out act the way you want with your dad and let him process it on his own? That way, you're authentic and you allow him to be authentic too. Try it on for size and see how things go?

Yes, in order to get something I'd have to ask for it. But if I never ask, then I can't get rejected and/or criticized. Time to watch a little Brene Brown.

And sad to say, I totally understand this! But you now know that it is a trap, right? Reminds me of the movie Dodgeball (one of my family faves). Peter LeFleur tells Kate that he never sets goals so that he never feels disappointment if they don't work out. Unfortunately, that disappointment seeps out into every aspect of his life, which are traps to create failures because he never achieves anything at all.

This is also my sticking point. My IC this summer assigned me Brene Brown. Only my pit of excuses is my dating life. Or lack thereof. I'm not in a position to date right at the moment (being the executor to an estate has kept me horribly busy and is my free time/free thinking trap at the moment), but I'm working at keeping my heart open to the idea of someone special coming along. Uh, it's not my nature, so know this is a battle for me too.

Keep going, rpp. I think you're digging up some really valuable gold nuggets on this path.

(((rpp)))

[SunnyB]

OK, after all this exhausting deep work, let me post something really petty. My kids and I keep a shared calendar through a phone ap. H has access, of course, and usually posts when he's going to be out of town on a business trip. He'll post "Mr. RPP in Emerald City for Munchkin Convention" for instance. So...... what he's put on the calendar from 6:00pm next Tuesday to 8:00am next Wednesday is "Mr. RPP away". Seriously, what kind of business trip lasts from 6pm to 8am? It's a celebration with the duck for signing the lease and telling my kids. That's the night her ex has her kids. Mindreading? Totally. But I know I'm right. And I'm going to breathe deep and not bring it up. And then he'll move out and I don't have to know where the he!! he's spending the night.