Hope414, I've just been following up on your posts on some of the other threads... I like your insight, directness and candor. I am also fearful of the 2X4's coming my way.
I want to change my habits and behavior, so let them fly.
Me 47 - W 35 M 9 - T 10 2 Daughters - 7 & 9 Discovery of EA- 8/4/14 S - 8/5/15 D mentioned - 9/11/14 R & Piecing - 3/17/15 Regard one another as more important than yourselves. - Philippians 2:3
Jefe, I wouldn’t worry about 2x4’s. You admit you have responsibility in the destruction of your relationship and you are willing to fix it. That’s pretty powerful.
Let’s start with what is probably her most crucial issue based on your assessment. Can you see what it is?
Studies show women need two things in a marriage: Love and security. Did you notice you pointed out both are lacking in your marriage.
Let me address love first.
You are absolutely head over heels in love with your wife but, according to you, neglected to let her know this. (Husbands love your wife even as Christ loved the Church…) Christ never stopped telling the Church how much He loved them. Even when He was hanging on the cross. Does your wife know you have this kind of unconditional love for her?
Love is a verb. A verb implies action. Anyone can say “I love you” but we recognize genuine love by actions.
Which brings me to security.
As much as you love your wife she may have been giving you signals that she was uneasy about you leaving a stable job in pursuit of a dream. Although you believe you can make it with no problem…women with children see the world completely different than men.
I am not here to crush your dream. But help you see life through her eyes.
A stable job means a stable income. Stable income means a stable home for her children. Food on the table, clothing, doctor appointments, vacations and the life a woman expects when she marries. This isn’t limited to your wife. This is a universal truth about most women. As much as we like to think we have progressed—in reality--we resent our husbands when they force us to worry about money.
I wish it wasn’t true but it is.
Then you handled leaving your dream all wrong. Here is what you did:
When you told her (2 weeks ago) that you would give it up and find a real job with a steady income if this is what SHE wanted…what she probably heard you say was:
“As another example of how I let you crush my dreams in order to save my family you soul-sucking witch—I will give up this dream. But this time you have to ask me nicely.” (Please say in your best Jack Nicholson voice because this is probably how she heard it.)
Maybe you could approach this conversation again but do it with her needs in mind.
“I realize I have been selfish. It didn’t occur to me that while pursuing my supposed dream that I was putting stress on you and my family. I was deceived. Please know that any “dream” (make sure you say it with air quotes) that turns your life into a nightmare isn’t my dream. My dream is to be a great husband. My dream is to be a great father. Because without my family I don’t have a dream. So why don’t we discuss what your dream is and how I can make your dreams come true?”
This lets her know she is loved, her opinion is valued and your family is your dream. But, the most important part of this conversation is designed to change her vision from “the relationship is ending” to “we have a future.”
She may respond with, “I don’t know. I don’t have any dreams of us anymore.”
If she says this then you say:
“That’s okay. I can dream big enough for the two of us.”
Then tell her one of your dreams for the future.
Make sure it involves the family because it will be easier for her to envision. Maybe it’s dancing at your grandchildren’s wedding. But make it a big dream. Make it vivid. Make it real. What is she wearing? What are you thinking when you take her in your arms and dance with her? Do you give a toast at the wedding? What do you say?
Keep this formula in mind: Cultivate everything that draws you together as a couple. Dispose of everything that divides you as a couple.
Let me address the “yeller” and the “lasher” issue. Yellers usually yell because they don’t feel heard. Lashers usually lash because they are still angry.
Yellers can be easier to deal with if they are “true yellers.” By that I mean--they just want to be heard and understood in the moment. They don’t want to manipulate the situation but they want their opinion to be valued. A yeller enters dangerous territory when they use yelling as a tool for terror, manipulation or abuse. Buy a lot of yellers are “in the moment” people. They say things they instantly regret and spend a lot of time apologizing for things they shouldn’t have said “in the moment.”
Lashers tend to be more complicated. Lashers rarely say what they feel in the moment and then find alternative avenues to vent anger. Their anger baffles yellers. For example, lashers are late picking up the kids and when a yellers says, “What kept you?” a lasher will respond, “Are you saying I’m a terrible mother! Well, you’re not that great of a father, either!!!” Huh? The yeller thought he was asking about traffic. How did this become a conversation about parenting?
Lashers harvest anger. They massage it and think about it for a while. This is why a yeller MUST go back and apologize over and over and over again to a lasher until the lasher is completely healed. The way a yeller knows a lasher is “over it” is when a lasher can joke about the argument.
Regarding her issues about the OM and parenting your child—take all those off the table. Those aren’t “her” issues. Those are a family issue now. Your options are limited on this.
And, last but not least: Romance. What is her idea of romance? You were pretty good at romancing her once because (out of all the men in the world) she choose you. So we know you know what she likes. In fact, you know better than any man in the world. Are you aware of this?
Again, studies show a woman’s need for romance increases after marriage. So we need to put you into turbo-romance mode.
Wow, Hope. This is a ton to digest in one brief sitting. Who are you? You have got some formal training and background in this, if my Spidey senses don't decieve me. I appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply.
I'm going to respond to the last portion right now as I need to re-read, ruminate, and re-read the rest of it again before I respond.
Quote:
And, last but not least: Romance. What is her idea of romance? You were pretty good at romancing her once because (out of all the men in the world) she choose you. So we know you know what she likes. In fact, you know better than any man in the world. Are you aware of this?
Again, studies show a woman’s need for romance increases after marriage. So we need to put you into turbo-romance mode.
If I answered off the cuff whether I knew this or not I'd say no. But after thinking about our first year together, yes I do completely know that I know better than ANY man in the world, including OM1. I think of the movie Family Man with Nicolas Cage and Téa Leoni. He tries telling her on the stairs what a dirty girl she is and how hot she makes him and that just shuts her down, but later in the movie when he looks her in the eyes and tells her how beautiful she is and always has been and how he never stopped loving her and she just melts...that's my wife. I don't think she'd shut down at the dirty girl part but she most certainly responds the the fawning attention. Unfortunately I did most of my loving fawning when I was drinking and I found it harder to be that sincere sober. I still absolutely feel that way, just harder for me to express it. Guess I'd better figure that out before it's completely too late.
Thank you, again Hope. I will reply more tonight.
Me 47 - W 35 M 9 - T 10 2 Daughters - 7 & 9 Discovery of EA- 8/4/14 S - 8/5/15 D mentioned - 9/11/14 R & Piecing - 3/17/15 Regard one another as more important than yourselves. - Philippians 2:3
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over.
Since Jefe's wife just stated this to him this week, wouldn't "romancing her" just be seen as pursuit, and not respecting her wishes?
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over.
Since Jefe's wife just stated this to him this week, wouldn't "romancing her" just be seen as pursuit, and not respecting her wishes?
Starsky
This is also true.
You know what else baffles me?
I just got off the phone with her (She called me) and she was telling me about one of the jobs she had applied for and said it sounds like she got it. I congratulated her and said that was great, she replied yes it is good, that's more money in OUR pocket. I hate that I analyze every little word down to the last pronoun, but I tend to believe, for the most part, that we choose the words we use more carefully that people may think.
Like the BD night I found the text messages and she said "I'm sorry you had to see that". Not; I'm sorry I did it, or I'm sorry that I hurt you, but I'm sorry I got caught. Anyway, I digress...
Me 47 - W 35 M 9 - T 10 2 Daughters - 7 & 9 Discovery of EA- 8/4/14 S - 8/5/15 D mentioned - 9/11/14 R & Piecing - 3/17/15 Regard one another as more important than yourselves. - Philippians 2:3
Romance and pursuit are not the same things. Romance is the ability to connect with someone on a level which touches their heart. Pursuit is a chase.
Romance is meeting a really amazing woman. Finding out what her favorite flowers are. Finding out what her favorite food is. Then inviting her to dinner at a restaurant known for this cuisine, picking her up (on time) with her favorite flowers in your hand.
Pursuit is meeting a really hot woman. Taking her to a club where you pour alcohol down her all night in an attempt to lower her inhibitions so she will have sex with you.
In other words: Romance is about her. Pursuit is about you.
Jefe,
Let me ask you something…
When she told you that “you were not together anymore and would not be together anymore”
…was this really the FIRST time she said something like this? Really?
If not, then I tend to think these words were thrown at you more for effect. “NOTICE ME!” More than “I want a divorce.”
You said she is a lasher and this text was sent after an argument. I’ll bet you yelled before she lashed. And she lashed very effectively. She sent you a really mean text and unfriended you on FB. Ouch. This is why I take the words less seriously than if it was said during a counseling session.
However make no mistake. I still take her threats seriously. The #1 problem with lashers is they don’t know when to stop and they don’t know how to “let it go.” So you have to shut it down. And by “shut it down” I mean you have to take control and stop the escalation.
Tonight is a good example of how you took control of the marriage by not allowing escalation. You were put in a situation perfect for escalation but you didn’t escalate. Instead of quizzing her about the job—you congratulated her.
Now, learn how to take it another step. Celebrate with her. Even if she doesn’t get the job—celebrate how wonderful she is. Send an e-card (funny-not romantic), or flowers, but something uniquely you and her—that says:
“Hey, you are amazing! Every company in America should hire you!” You should consider making it a family affair.
Have a “mommy is amazing” dinner and everyone gets to say why mommy is amazing.
Whether she gets the job or doesn’t get the job…she will remember the support she gets from you during this time. And while you are giving her this support…maybe you can throw in a little romance.
Same for my H who has said sorry for lying, and sorry for hurting me. But not sorry for having the A. I don't think he feels regret about that at all.....yet....
T 13 M 7 Me 48 H 46 SS 15 BD 7.14 PA D final 5.16 (H filed)
We receive & we lose, and must try to achieve gratitude & embrace with whole hearts whatever of life that remains after the losses - Dubus
Love is a verb. A verb implies action. Anyone can say “I love you” but we recognize genuine love by actions.
You are absolutely head over heels in love with your wife but, according to you, neglected to let her know this. (Husbands love your wife even as Christ loved the Church…) Christ never stopped telling the Church how much He loved them. Even when He was hanging on the cross. Does your wife know you have this kind of unconditional love for her?
My wife knows that I have unconditional love for her, it's just not been the kind of love she needs. The kind of love that should be filling her love tank.
Quote:
“As another example of how I let you crush my dreams in order to save my family you soul-sucking witch—I will give up this dream. But this time you have to ask me nicely.” (Please say in your best Jack Nicholson voice because this is probably how she heard it.)
Maybe you could approach this conversation again but do it with her needs in mind.
“I realize I have been selfish. It didn’t occur to me that while pursuing my supposed dream that I was putting stress on you and my family. I was deceived. Please know that any “dream” (make sure you say it with air quotes) that turns your life into a nightmare isn’t my dream. My dream is to be a great husband. My dream is to be a great father. Because without my family I don’t have a dream. So why don’t we discuss what your dream is and how I can make your dreams come true?”
I would do anything for her to feel like she was being heard at this point. While I don't think it came across as extreme as above I do think she is deeply troubled by it. It humors me that OM1 has no/crappy job and that's more attractive at the moment.
I would love the opportunity to reword it like you have but I'm with Starsky on the timing of this. She is still in super pissed mode when she talks to me. She called last night (see previous post ^^) and was cordial but not receptive to hearing anything, I can promise that.
Quote:
Yellers can be easier to deal with if they are “true yellers.” By that I mean--they just want to be heard and understood in the moment. They don’t want to manipulate the situation but they want their opinion to be valued. A yeller enters dangerous territory when they use yelling as a tool for terror, manipulation or abuse. Buy a lot of yellers are “in the moment” people. They say things they instantly regret and spend a lot of time apologizing for things they shouldn’t have said “in the moment.”
Lashers tend to be more complicated. Lashers rarely say what they feel in the moment and then find alternative avenues to vent anger. Their anger baffles yellers. For example, lashers are late picking up the kids and when a yellers says, “What kept you?” a lasher will respond, “Are you saying I’m a terrible mother! Well, you’re not that great of a father, either!!!” Huh? The yeller thought he was asking about traffic. How did this become a conversation about parenting?
Have you been hiding in our closet the last 5 years? Yes, this is it EXACTLY.
Quote:
Regarding her issues about the OM and parenting your child—take all those off the table. Those aren’t “her” issues. Those are a family issue now. Your options are limited on this.
And yet, I feel like this is the stuff that's going to have to be dealt with for me to feel comfortable. Or maybe I need to just be uncomfortable for a while and let God sort this out. IDK. This is a pretty important topic right here.
Me 47 - W 35 M 9 - T 10 2 Daughters - 7 & 9 Discovery of EA- 8/4/14 S - 8/5/15 D mentioned - 9/11/14 R & Piecing - 3/17/15 Regard one another as more important than yourselves. - Philippians 2:3
Oh, where to start. I'm not positive she's with a man at the moment. There is OM1 and a possible OM2. I hadn't really wanted to go this route but I am seeing that we may have to.
My wife's father left her mother (never married) before the wife was born and never spoke to her or acknowledged her again. My father left when I was 4 and I have had next to no contact with him since. I was sexually abused as a young child and I believe my wife was as well.
Now on to the story...
When I first met my current wife I was still married to my first wife. W1 and I had a horrible relationship and we did everything wrong to each other. She had affairs - I had addictions, there was no God to speak of and we were poisonous towards one another. We had separated before and it looked like we were going to divorce for sure. She would constantly denigrate me and accuse me of cheating or "going to the topless bar', on a near daily basis. Neither of which I was doing. It got to the point that I was contemplating having an affair since I was constantly in trouble for it anyway.
My current wife, (W2) was the cousin of a close friend and co-worker. She came in to apply for a job where I worked and I was spellbound. I couldn't keep my eyes off of her. Eventually we discussed that we had a mutual attraction for one another. We met at the bar down the street one day after work and she told me that there was absolutely no way we were even going to have any further discussions past work related topics as long as I was still together with W1.
Initially, I had absolutely no desire to leave my marriage even though it was pretty bad and W1's sexual indiscretions were becoming more and more problematic and less hidden. W1 would constantly tell me day after day how sorry I was going to be when she left me, "you know I'm leaving you soon" or "I'm going to leave you and take everything". I must admit that after future W2 expressed interest in me, I had little interest in working on what I viewed to be a hopeless situation. So one day when the berating started, I packed a bag and left and moved into my rehearsal studio for 30-45 days or more.
It was at this time that future W2 and I started dating and that she brought me right to God's doorstep.
I am not proud of how I handled my first marriage at the time, how I left or how I dealt with W1. God was obviously not pleased with me either because I was in fact still married and he certainly did not bless the union between future W2 and I, as we were split-up in about 8 months.
During our split, I made amends to W1 and we patched some wounds and repaired some hurts, completed our divorce and left things on a better note. The now xW even offered some counsel on how to possibly win W2 back. Even going as far as saying that she released me, and now that the divorce was complete she expected that I might find favor in a relationship with W2.
About 2 months after I split with future W2 she called me letting me know that she was pregnant and that the "father" (we'll call him Baby Daddy or OM1 for short) basically kicked her to the curb and denied the child. (In hindsight, he had another girlfriend that he already had another child with and she was also pregnant with their 2nd at about the same duration as future w1, so he was cake eating). I still had strong feelings for the future wife so I offered to take her back and raise the child as my own. Future W2 resisted at first and even ran back to OM1 once before he kicked her to the curb again.
During this time, I had lost a ton of weight, sobered up (briefly) and had really worked on myself. I worked hard at winning her back. My xW1 even called future W2 asking her what was wrong with her for not jumping on this opportunity. (Not my idea at all, xW1 did this without my knowledge or request) After that call, future W2 decided that maybe this was the best course. We were married 4 months later. And D7 was born later that year.
OM1 has been a sticking point our entire marriage as we have never agreed on the best course of action. She wanted full disclosure from day one and since he refused to speak to her or knowledge the child she wanted to sue him for paternity. I wanted to just explain things when D7 got older and just let her have an intact family without all the drama. I was there at her birth, I'm on the birth certificate and she has my last name. She still to this day does not understand that I am not her father. Even though W2 attempted to explain it to her this past June.
Until 2011 the only contact with baby daddy / OM1 has been through his extended family. His mother, and sister mainly. Towards the end of 2011 W2 and I separated. I was very similar to this time and while we were apart she admitted to having an affair. She explained it as a one night thing. I have always suspected it was with OM1 becuase about a month after we started piecing she mentioned that OM1 and her had been talking about him visiting D7. When I found this out I politely asked her to please not have direct communication with him (partly because of my suspicions) and only schedule visits through his mother and that when the visited that it was never with the two of them alone. She agreed and deleted him from her phone on the spot.
In 2012 we struggled briefly and separated over visitation with OM1. Last year we almost separated because in working the steps with her sponsor, W2 realized we got married for the wrong reasons and she wanted out, then she decided she didn't.
At the beginning of this year W2 informed me that OM1's mother was moving out of state and she would have to deal with OM1 directly. I was not very thrilled with this idea but what could I do? At that time we had agreed on quarterly visits that were always in a neutral location although my wife was pushing for more.
Seriously so far this year our relationship had been really good. Or at least I thought so. Even with the minor hiccups.
In June W2 decided that she wanted to tell D7 the truth about OM1 and she wanted to do it right now. I wanted to wait until we sought counsel first but W2 not only insisted but she did it without me even being there for my daughter. Mind you, D7 thinks I am her only father at this point. I lost my cool and we had a big fight. After this I had been waiting for some strife to come my way and was starting to get very concerned by July as my wife was starting to become more and more stealthy and secretive with her conversations and her phone in general.
Jump to the evening of Aug 4. I came home late from work. I got the kids in bed and came to the living room where the wife asked if I was going to take a shower. A cue that she wanted to ML. When I got out of the shower her phone was on the nightstand going off. I grabbed it on my way to the living room when I looked down at the screen. A strange notification was on it that cause me to look and that is when I found the picture of OM1's erect penis in a message with both of them exchanging comments about what they'd like to do to each other. I brought the phone out with me and asked: "Do you want to tell me about your boyfriend?" She replied: "I can explain!" then started to back pedal until I showed her the picture. She violently responded, snatched the phone and hit me in the head on her way out of the room. She was gone the next day. I confirmed it was OM1 the next week and I'm pretty sure it was OM1 she had the affair with a couple of years back.
At this point OM1 is still with the same shack up girlfriend he had 7-8 years ago. His GF just had their 3rd child Sept 2nd (meaning they were sexting while she was pregnant). I dont think there has been a PA with OM1 but she did attempt to send a photo of D7 to OM1 using my phone last week and then tried to hide it. Which was a point of contention today.
We had been working towards reconciliation from about 2 weeks after BD until about September 5th or so. Before I found this place I had been watching the phone logs and knew she had met a possible OM2 that weekend and they had exchanged over 112 texts in a 6 day span. Over 65 in one night from 11:30 to 2 in the morning. So my suspensions were running high especially since she was starting to pull back away. Some other things were going on during that time frame that didn't help the situation.
And here we are today worse off than ever before.
The point behind this wall of text is to completely explain the dynamics of my situation as best I can. I still want my wife back home as much for me as for our children.
I am hoping to not answer this thread but just continue with my main thread here:
Not sure why you posted this on another thread but I will re-post it here for ease of reading.
