Feels like an eternity (Mindsin - part. 3)

[mindsin]

No matter how tempted you are, that will push her into his arm MORE...so don't challenge that. It just forcers her to defend it. Do you get that?

Understood.

[mindsin]

mindsin - I have a similar situation as you, but maybe twice as long now. I have gotten impatient and have thought the same things as you - I'm sure.

At about 3 months in, she said the same things - I love him, I didn't think it was possible to love 2 men......

I was pushing at the time - thinking that was the right thing to do - we went to MC and everything. It didn't "fix" anything and it probably hurt the situation and timeline. Later she said, she just wasn't ready to change things, deal with it, even though she said she knew she wanted to. She was just not in the right mind frame.

I believe if I was giving her the space and time to work through things back then - as I am trying to now, we may be in a better place. The pressure was just doubling the problems and I really didn't understand or believe there was nothing I could do about the A. Only become a better person for me and potentially for us.

Yup. You, me, pilot, and one other person here have almost identical current situations, but my past is very different in that I betrayed her multiple times by my selfish acts of betrayal to meet a need that my W was not fulfilling.

I have a tall mountain to climb.

[25yearsmlc]

I am certainly not intentionally undoing the DB work. You're right -- each time I contact her is a step backwards. But I'm caught in a bind a lot of times. I don't want to "go dark" on her. One of the major complaints she had about me in our marriage was the fact that I "clam up" and "shut down". I never share my thoughts and feelings with her. Even now, she hints to me that she wants me to open up to her. It's hard finding that balance. I struggle with it every day.
--
She did cry in front of me the 1st time she found out. Yes, I did tell her I wouldn't do it again and I did blame her for not meeting my needs. It never really resolved any of the times. We never fixed it.

Look at your wording here^^^..."She did cry"...."WE NEVER FIXED IT"....and "Yes I did blame HER for not meeting MY needs"..."IT never really resolved any..."

There is nothing in there saying that YOU wronged her and YOU did not resolve it or fix it. You blamed HER for YOUR actions, and then you lumped her in with you, for not resolving it, as if you Both were supposed to stop You from cheating...

see a pattern?

We simply let time pass YOU simply let time pass and hoped she wouldn't leave you.


and just didn't really talk about it. We were both so focused on raising our children. It seemed secondary. Obviously, that was the wrong approach.

Mindskin, I doubt VERY seriously that it "Seemed secondary" to HER. I mean, Notice how that^^ comment lets YOU off really lightly. Maybe if she had cracked down earlier you might not have killed so much of what she felt.

Dang, I do feel badly for you b/c I think this woman really loved you & you probably loved her a lot too. I do worry that you put her thru he11 and I hope very much that her love for the kids will lead her to want to repair things with you.

But you're not in much of a position to throw that in her face, b/c you really did a number on her...well, we can try to go "from this day forward" like the vows say. Just don't let your recall be too self serving again, or she'll really flee into OMs arms.

The OM went back to live with his wife at least for that week when I was away. I don't know if it's temporary. I don't know if he's still there or not. I have no additional knowledge of their situation at this point.

--- until you KNOW, at least admit you are assuming. Meanwhile, what are you doing to become the better catch?

Tell me how you treat her and why she'd choose you over OM, as you are today.

I think I treat her well.

You might not be the best person to assess that accurately.


I respect her space and privacy and respect her time. I am [b]very accommodating to her with regard to making sure the household is kept up[/b]


as opposed to what? Leave aside OM for a minute.

What else would you do, mess up the house while she's working and then expect her to clean up when she gets home?

Hey I'm not trying to bash you; I just want to show you that the self serving bias you have isn't really serving you well. You overstate your contributions to the marriage, and gloss over the devastating blows you have landed on her.

while she works long hours and even when she spends days with the OM. My thought is simply that I am responsible for my household.


yes you are

I am more communicative and have become a better father -- paying close attention to the children's needs as well as their day-to-day (e.g. school, etc).


This^^^ is good and it's meaningful. It matters. It's the "upside" of this ordeal and I mean that.

I got a new haircut, which my wife complemented me on, and I am more physically fit/attractive than I was a couple of months ago.

Good for you. Taking care of yourself is key in many respects. You'll feel better at a time when your ego could use it.
And I think IF you keep up these changes, treating her WELL, there's a good chance that when the OM leaves, and she sees you interacting lovingly with the kids, she could come around.

But do Not feel as if she owes you that, okay?

B/c YOU telling her to "think of the kids", is something which you did Not do all those years, and is probably too hypocritical for her to hear.

It could infuriate her ( if I were in her shoes, it would irk me to have you throw anything in my face about cheating being bad for the family etc) The longer it takes you to understand that, the worse for You.

At this point, I can't answer why she'd choose me over the OM, other than the fact that I am a great father to her children. She knows that I will do anything for them, and doesn't see the same with the OM with his children. He reluctantly moved back home with his W to help take care of the children while she tends to her ailing father. I don't know how much stock she puts into that, but if anything, I don't think it works against me.

I also doubt it works against you.

But then, maybe she'll recall how you left her alone to cheat on her when she was pregnant, and not feeling well. When pregnant women are sick, often the baby is endangered... and that didn't get you home b/c you didn't even answer the phone when she called and texted you,

so if she AND the baby had been dying, you would not have even known, let alone been there for her or the baby.

So She may not see much difference between OMs "reluctantly going home to his children" (how do you know how he felt?) and you Not being available to her when you were with OWs. (OR she may see OM in a better light)

And just so you know -b/c I don't think you realize this-but historically speaking, (in this country at least)-

when men cheat on pregnant wives, it is seen as a serious betrayal, terrifying to women at our most vulnerable times and is the behavior of a "Cad"...

the closest thing to it to men, is like when soldiers go off to fight in wars, and their wives cheat.

It's just NOT done by honorable people, you know?

I I just wanted you to take that into consideration b/c it's a psychological blow to a woman's need for security AND fidelity from her partner. Security is not just physical security (but it's that too,) the need to feel safe.

And how can a woman feel safe if she can't find her husband when she's carrying his child and she's ill? It's not a safe feeling at all. She is at her most vulnerable. Add to that, the other strong need women have of their men -- fidelity...it's easy to see how her love tank became empty...

you are on thin ice, so you really have to be careful. Do NOT lose your temper. Do NOT bring up OM. (Read the Newbie Rules again if you have to, but stop all the obsessing about him, and work on YOU and keeping things at home NICE)

Keep up the fathering activities and take up some GAL soon. Bring something to the table that is interesting. A new passion or hobby or language or maybe even something SHE likes, that you'd also like to learn.

Dance lessons might be a bit much now, but in time...?? I don't know her or you, (but I DO know I fell in love with my h on the dance floor on our first dozen dates.)

Tennis, art classes, woodworking, anything you would like to do that is new and stimulating and gets your mind off the marital situation, etc.



If it were me, I would have moved back home immediately. Children come first.


Not so fast....i mean it's easy for you to say NOW -- but like I just said, when she was carrying your child and she/they were sick, she could not reach you by phone...

See, there are things all of us have done that we want to forget...but when we DO forget them... that's NOT good or helpful to us. It's also not fair to those whom we've hurt.

And the 180s and the GAL? Any NEW subjects or topics or skills coming up for you? Career growth?

Still the same 180s and GAL as before. I didn't engage in anything new. I really have no interest and time, to be honest. The only things that I'm thinking of considering is joining some kind of sports league (basketball, tennis).

I will post about this^^ b/c I think you are really missing out on something very important. Plus you sound depressed and that is NOT appealing, even if it's understandable.

Realize one thing: The reason GAL is hammered so much here is simple; it works.

It helps you detach (I'd argue that you CANNOT detach without GAL), and it helps you grow and it helps you Change.

You become more interesting and inerestED in others. Those are valuable gifts

and you ignore this - at your peril.


The job prospect that I thought died on the vine has actually come back into the realm of possibility as I received an e-mail from their HR just a few hours ago.

that's good news! I'll keep my fingers crossed!

Did you look into the workshop in Philadelphia called "Essential Experience"? ---
---
Nothing your wife is doing, is being done in a vacuum. Put it all in context.
It'll make a lot more sense then, I think.

That's it for the moment. Good luck!

I did not look into that workshop, but I will definitely check it out. Thanks. [/quote]

I hope you do. Keep on keeping on, and hang in there.

[25yearsmlc]

Please don't overlook the importance of GAL.

Like I said, it helps you detach which You simply have to do.

It's also good for you; makes you more well rounded, sets a good example for the kids to see their parents taking an interest in the world around them, (not being couch potatoes) and or taking care of their bodies or contributing to the community, or having FUN doing something purely for the joy of it. I can't imagine living with someone who had no hobbies or outside interests other than work and family.

Even though GAL isn't done FOR the WAS to notice, it's hard to overlook it. thing, Doing or learning new things demonstrates change in you. Think about that symbolism.

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. Back then, I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I auditioned for community theater and met some Very fun creative people. I got cast in shows, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

I went skydiving! I Loved it so much I did it again! And I plan on doing it again, soon! Very very cool.

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of the LONG winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

Saw a therapist and for some months, I went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group

Took a class in Conversational French

Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

it'll do you well to look into doing something new/healthy and or Different.

It really will help.

[mindsin]

Holy s---!!! Where did you find the time for all of that??? You must have been completely transformed!

And thanks again for your words of advice. Yes, now that I see your analysis of my words, I do see how self-serving I am. I feel like there is a key to unlock myself from this mode of thinking. Maybe if I focus on the thought that NOTHING that is happening right now can be criticized because ANYTHING that is criticized will be laced with hypocracy. I think that may be a place to start.

I have to get it in my head that it's not about being right or wrong. If I approach it that way, the competitive side of my personality will always try to "win".

[mindsin]

With regard to GAL - both my wife and I are interested in playing tennis again. We used to play together all the time, but it's been a couple of years since. Would you advise that I approach her about playing?

"Hey. How about we hit some balls together after work one of these days? We're both rusty and could use the practice before joining a league."

Do you think that's too much pursuit?

Another point I want to make is that my after-work schedule is very busy. When I take the kids home, between homework, bathing, reading, etc., it is a full evening. I'm afraid that if I start engaging in other hobbies or activities, it will take that valuable time away from my children.

Weekends are also tough because my W typically spends one day every weekend with the OM, and the other day with the family. I cherish my family weekend days. When my wife is out with the OM, I am left with the kids. I could certainly leverage my in-laws (who live locally) to watch them, but my W doesn't like that. That was the source of our scheduling conflict last week. She wanted her parents to rest on the weekends and didn't feel it was OK for me to drop them off there while I spend a day with my friends.

[claire7]

25years--

I'm also very curious how you fit in time for those activities while home by yourself with young kids. Did you work outside the home? Did you have sitters? Can you give a clearer picture of how you balanced your life?

I struggle to fit in time for my day to day stuff, and am reluctant to give up time with my D, or pay for sitters. I have some time on the weekends that I use to see friends or run errands or frankly, catch up/rest.

Thanks!

[25yearsmlc]

At this point, do NOT invite your wife to YOUR GAL activities.

Read about GAL more in the book, b/c for you to suggest that as a GAL, with her, is really missing the point

It's not a bad idea for a future activity as a couple (but if you are that competitive then maybe it is a bad idea)

but for GAL, you do NOT invite your wife.

More later...

[25yearsmlc]

Please don't overlook the importance of GAL.

Like I said, it helps you detach which You simply have to do.
---

Even though GAL isn't done FOR the WAS to notice, it's hard to overlook it. thing, Doing or learning new things demonstrates change in you. Think about that symbolism.

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. Back then, I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how you are 'too busy' to GAL).

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

This was a volunteer job that meant two-4 days a month. There was day care at the shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).

For this^^ My h or son watched the baby when we had games/practices and occasionally I hired a sitter. Other parents also helped b/c I was coaching for free and they wanted to help. FWIW, you might be surprised to know how many other women or families (or single dads) will trade ONE day/evening a week with you and watch your kids. Granted that means ONE of your days/evenings is devoted to their kids, but since I had kids of my own, it tended to mean that one afternoon or evening a week, I'd have kids that my kids could play with, over at the house. And that was a win win.

I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).

I don't recall this ^^ volunteering as a problem b/c many of the parents helped out when we had meetings. I don't remember if there were times I needed to hire a sitter but if I did, I did.

I auditioned for community theater and met some Very fun creative people. I got cast in shows, too.

THIS^^^ required the most planning. I made a "deal" with my family in advance and each year, that if I got a part, which meant 8 weeks of 3-4 evenings a week, they'd have to agree ahead of time. They almost always agreed. Over the years I average one show a year (8 weeks of 52).

In terms of demands on them this was the hardest, but they seemed to like me being on stage, or maybe they enjoyed MY delight in it.

There were times I had to hire a sitter for this, but it was pretty predictable if it came to that. Also more than once I had roles with one of my older kids also in the play. Notably, both of them majored in theater and film and are now in the industry. They began doing theater after watching me do it. Meaning, it affected their career goals (for better or worse).

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.

Stand up comedy prep work is mostly done at home or with a fellow comedian as a colleague.. The performances themselves are less than an hour. Not a big deal compared to having to prepare for it. Always a weekend.

I usually did my comedy "buddy" work with another comedian, by phone, and tweaked the material as much as I could before going on stage. Stage time itself was not a problem. I'd return in 2 hours. Not many jobs let you return in 2 hours.

I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.

I'd sometimes do this with the kids right after school let out. Either one would come with me and the other would watch the baby, or I'd go alone for an hour when the kids got home.

In the last winter there, their arrival home usually meant almost the end of daylight so I had to hurry outside if I wanted to get some sunlight. I would take the snow machine and go to the target range. It helped me get OUTSIDE in the winter - which was vital for feeling sane.

I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

This^^ was usually done with family members. Arrangements were made to go deep sea fishing with my son, hunting was done with all, and we each enjoyed skiing. By the third year, the baby was a toddler who liked to sled when I went skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.

I did this^^ as often as possible. Refreshing, invigorating, and fun for them too.

Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.

This^^ cost money but was a long held dream of mine. H also did it, and because of that it was not hard to arrange child care for each of us to trade.

I went skydiving! I Loved it so much I did it again! And I plan on doing it again, soon! Very very cool.

^^^My kids came and watched, and my oldest d22 joined me. (The first time It was my birthday!) The second time, h and I had reconciled and he went and jumped too.
There is something very symbolic about skydiving. Maybe "taking the jump/risk" and then having the chute open, is just such a powerful empowering experience. Hard to explain but really wonderful. I Highly recommend it.

Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

^^^This was work I did from home. However part of the pay was a big game hunt I did a year later, and by then H wanted to join, as did our son.
We got our limit and it was a reverent experience. I'm glad I did it and got a caribou for our family, but I don't think I need to do it again. H loves hunting. The editing work continues and is done mostly from home.

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.

This^^ was done at a gym with daycare sometimes available. Sometimes I'd hire someone or have the older kids watch the baby if it was in the day. H also supported my getting in shape enough to help when pressed. After the work outs if I had it planned in advance, I'd have a drink or light meal with the friend and it helped me get out of the house and usually NOT discussing h or the marriage.

(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of the LONG winters).

Losing weight with a newborn is not easy. I had to exercise AND diet and that was new for me but it's just the truth. I think the effort was worth doing so the kids could SEE that it does happen. Meaning, you can gain weight and you can get rid of it, if you make enough effort, you can do it.

I made a weekly plan and tried to stick by it, and involved them in making it at times. At least once a week I hired a sitter (sometimes it was a neighbor who traded childcare with me; it did not always involve money) and did something with my older chidden. Ideally if you GAL, your spouse will notice in a positive way and may try to help out. I say, depending on the activity, let them.

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

^^^Not terribly time consuming...I don't recall how the childcare worked.

Saw a therapist and for some months, I went on ADs.

Same thing, not very time consuming. On one occasion or two, I brought the baby.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

That ^^was weekly for 6 weeks. Not a big deal but I still have the vases and fruit bowls and coffee mugs. It's cool to make something of your own that you can use. I enjoyed it more than I expected. Don't recall having childcare troubles with it.

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

This ^^ turned into a real social asset. My two friendships from there saved my sanity, and when I have fond memories of those years, those women are usually in them. I'm so grateful for that. Also, it helped b/c a lot of us needed childcare help and were able to trade it around more. So that was another byproduct of joining.

Joined a writer's group

Did a lot of writing at home and then did the readings twice a month. Later some of the writings (the ones with scripts) were produced in a play festival. I don't recall any conflicts with childcare.

Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

These classes^^ were once a week, and I did not take them concurrently. It's not that hard to take ONE night a week to go to a class. But it sure carries over and makes you feel pretty good.

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.

Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

it'll do you well to look into doing something new/healthy and or Different.

It really will help.

You don't have to do these all at once. Knowing you WILL do them, often helps. I did these GAL things over a 3 year time period.
I also wrote a lot of columns for the newspaper- but that came up when some issue riled me enough, and when that happened, I'd take an hour or 2 to get fired up and write when the baby slept.

Also, housework was NOT a priority to me when it came time to trade off something to balance out my life. Then again, hiring a housecleaner also reduced marital conflict a LOT...when I worked outside the home, I hired one. When I stayed at home that was a rarer event, but now and then you just have to have someone else clean your house and let you SEE IT DONE and then enjoy it.

Other than a few of these^^, the real "cost" was trading child care or paying for it or sacrificing some time with your other kids. But my kids did not feel burdened by their sibling care or at least they don't say so now. I also know the kids are all very close despite a gap in their ages (the oldest is 12 years older than our youngest but they're very close). And there is a lot of value in your chldren seeing you as a person NOT just there for them...not just cooking their meals and caring for them but also as an individual with interests outside of them.

Not to sound selfish but to be healthy. Plus, don't forget, the alternative to a lot of these activities was to be depressed and inert, which is what I was sorely tempted to do. I had to set an example for them of an active person, not a spectator. In places like Alaska where the winters are so harsh, many people retreat in those months. I just could not emotionally afford to do that.

I do LESS now, b/c I'm in a sunny warm place and don't have the same need to go outside just to survive, if you know what i mean.

I can tell you one thing I'm positive of; it was worth it.

.

[claire7]

Thanks 25. This is really helpful. I'm still figuring out how to balance career/motherhood and GAL... while also getting enough time to rest and recharge (I'm an introvert... so while I enjoy going out with people and socializing, I do need down time afterwards...

You've given me lots to think about in terms of how to fit stuff in with a little one.