still holding on - 4

[u-turn]

I said that about too much conflict just because I do not really know how this will work, how we will react to it. I know how we used to react to high stress situations, but don't know any more.

All in all, I can control how I will react, but don't know and cannot control how she will.

I don't think there will be conflict - I assume that as usual we will be amicable, friendly and helpful to each other. (when I say things like that, none of this makes any sense).

[dawgy]

U_turn buddy . I m gonna say something that you may feel offensive but I hope not . JUST RELAX . If she is still in your bed and still wanting to touch you physically in anyway , then use it to your advantage . The best chance for survival of your marriage is to keep her in your home . Separating can help and also can do more damage . Understand that separation is either going to be one way or the other 50 / 50 chance . That is a big gamble .If you truly still want your marriage then keep staying positive , do you work in the backround , love from a distance , be the lighthouse .Letting her hold your hand and hugging her when she wants is being the lighthouse .

Something else that has been helping me is putting myself in my wifes shoes . If i was the WAS , how would i want her to behave in order to keep my marriage . Your friend Dawgy

[u-turn]

No offense taken - (I'm not sure I am very offend-able any more). I know to relax - let things unfold.

I am trying to keep an open mind and observe, stay pleasant, and be the lighthouse.

I am still working on my issues. I had somewhat of an epiphany yesterday about my confidence and strength (mental, physical, emotional) - I am working on that - I need to show her what I used to be. Regain in these areas. My business has suffered so badly that it is hardly recognizable - I will focus on that and stay strong for the kids. This will help me too as I am depressed about the business too - it all just snowballs.

I have often tried to put myself in W shoes - tried to understand the situation she is in - tried to believe that she is trying or will try to sort things out. It does help me to think this way - it really cannot be easy on her either. I wonder if she does the same (put herself in my shoes).

We talked about that when we went to MC at one point. I disregard much of what happened there because she wasn't ready, and I don't think I was either - I was still in panic mode. I do hope to go back to a different MC some day.

Thanks Dawgy

[dawgy]

U Turn , I also want you to concentrate on your business. Remember how you want her to see you . Strong , confident , independant . This will show her the old you again and remind her what she loved about you . A failing business is not attractive . Plus diving into it will keep you focused on the rest of your life instead of your marriage which Im sure you ve come to realize now isnt everything . Your children are everything , you are everything . Women come and go the same as friends . I know you love her but what would you do if she passed away ??? you have to be able to move on . Especially for your kids .And if you want to keep your marriage its extra important to keep healthy and keep moving forward . Get the business back to where it should be . Im in for the long haul and you can be too .

[u-turn]

So the pursuit continues by her. It's like she is a different person - just like that.

She tells me where she is going, she hugs and kisses me good bye, she holds my hand every night. It's a little confusing to me how she can change so quickly. So it makes me cautious with my actions and what I say to her.

She has even told me of different job opportunities that she may be going after (which would be at a different facility than OM).

Now all this could be real or a full-on cover-up, I want to trust this, but don't know how. I want to ask her if this is all real, but don't want to push too hard or stop it - if it actually is real.

hoping for some insight again - thank you!!

-----

Just adding to something I wrote earlier - hoping to get some insight>

She is pursuing me now and I am trying to make my detachment keep me strong. I don't want to just be drawn back in and it all start over again.

I wonder if this pursuit is from actual feelings or covering for something else. She has reached over and held my hand in the middle of the night, and wanted long hugs - I didn't ask for these things and didn't need them (thought they do make me momentarily feel better). I have a hard time believing that what I said the other day made a quick change or any change in her. I believe I am detached in a way that I can look at this behavior and question it to myself. But I am questioning it out loud here. (is it helping her or is she doing it for me?)

I have read about the pursuer.... cycle (but cannot find anything on that now). When I read it before, it described what I think is happening with me. I tend to rush back and ruin progress.

Anyone know about how an A dies on its own - cold turkey end vs. slowly fizzling out to nothing? and signs of either?

[Bart42]

U-turn, really appreciate your journaling- the current status of my sitch has a lot of similarities to yours, and as a noobie I ‘m learning a lot from your posts (and getting strength from knowing I’m not going through this alone). I’ve stopped trying to wonder why my W reaches out to hold my hand or give me a hug (no mindreading!) while continuing her A- I just accept it without reciprocating or reaching out myself. I recognize some contact is better than none, that there must be some feeling behind it, and that I just have to try to wait this out. I’m just as confused as you are as to where the line is between supporting cake eating/responding to the pursuit and standing firm that the A must end. It feels like la la land sometimes when I’m being touched and hugged while W denies the A continues, I can only GAL and pray she comes to her senses and figures out what she wants before I come to the end of my rope.

[u-turn]

Thanks Bart, being here has helped me so much - with advice from others directly to me and reading other's posts and advice.

It is confusing and I still think I am making so many mistakes.

I read through your story and the same type of lies were told about hotel rooms just to talk, chance meetings, I was just ending it with him until you started pressuring me, and I choose me and won't choose either of you.

Now we are in the - if she doesn't show any signs of it or talk about it, she doesn't have to lie (or A has fizzled). So I don't really know how to proceed, except to keep focusing on myself and kids. Right now I just know that nothing is going to happen quickly.

Her pursuit is definitely a curve ball that I don't know what to do about.

Also - if and when it comes to a stated transparency arrangement, it is easy to get around that too. work phones, work e-mails, deleted messages.....It would have to come back to sincerity and trust.

That is why I'm asking here, how do A's usually end, with fanfare (a big announcement and apology and tears) or silently dying and just filed away?

[Bart42]

if and when it comes to a stated transparency arrangement, it is easy to get around that too. work phones, work e-mails, deleted messages.....It would have to come back to sincerity and trust.

That is why I'm asking here, how do A's usually end, with fanfare (a big announcement and apology and tears) or silently dying and just filed away?

We had fits and starts at transparency during the 3.5 months I've known about the A- she was very opposed to it (Of course! as Starsky says) and one day out of the blue after refusing for weeks she turned phone tracking on. Whether she was trying to fool me or was actually thinking about ending the A I'll never know. Anyway, I took some comfort from it, but quickly realized exactly what you said- that its so easy to get around if she wants to (and she did turn it off shortly thereafter). That made me realize that to me, transparency isn't about being able to check up on her but is really about her evidencing a true desire and willingness to make amends and do whatever she needs to do to save the marriage. Its a commitment to work together, nothing more. You can couple transparency with an ultimatum of what will happen if she breaches the agreement (to me that ultimatum is really more part of a NC agreement than transparency anyway), but again, she's going to do whatever she WANTS to do and the only hope (at least for my M) is to get her to WANT to be with me and have nothing to do with OM.

As to knowing when the A is over, I'm hoping to learn from you! I'm not anywhere near that (today I just gave her the "I won't work on our marriage while you are continuing the A" speech and she again denied it continues). But what I do know is that there usually is depression, melancholy, stress, etc. and I'm keeping an eye out for those behaviors as my sign something is afoot in her other relationship.

[u-turn]

I have read and feel like even though the transparency is wanted by me, it has to come from her (and may help her kick the addiction in a so to speak).

I actually think that it would be mostly symbolic in our case, as anything can be hidden and I cannot have access to her work e-mail or phone (and anything can be deleted or hidden). So it is symbolic in a way that she would be offering as much as she can - I would either have to accept what she's offering or not. I have told her a thousand times that she doesn't need to lie to me. We are adults, tell me the truth and let us both make the decisions that need to be made. (It hasn't always happened that way)

But what I do know is that there usually is depression, melancholy, stress, etc. and I'm keeping an eye out for those behaviors as my sign something is afoot in her other relationship.

I have seen those things come and go - I have reacted to them in the past and still find myself doing that - as you can see from my posts. I try to give time and space so I can evaluated things from a distance and not react to every change. Though with this new pattern, I am thrown a little.

Keep it up Bart!!

[u-turn]

So I am in a position of not knowing what to do again (just because things are different and seemingly better). After I stated my boundary, things changed (and I think too quickly).

I don't know what if any steps could or should be taken. Or do I continue as is (as if)?

I don't know the status of OM
She doesn't bring him up during conversations about work - she knows that "gets to me".
She doesn't text or e-mail much while she is around me.
She isn't gone as much (though anything can be happening while away at work)

She is now friendly, somewhat affectionate, considerate, sending me random texts, letting me know where she is (even sending pictures as proof).

This could all be a better devised cover - I don't know. I would love to just trust everything, but how do I know?

It seems still like limbo, but at least a more pleasant limbo.

I use the word dubious often in my posts. I am still dubious - I don't know what she really wants or where she is in the whole big picture without asking. I haven't done too well reading her mind, her actions toward me indicate one thing, but the fact that she isn't wearing her ring or wanting anything more than a hug and kiss is a big indicator that she is not all in.

--I don't think she will put her ring back on until she's ready
--I don't think she will want to be sexual with me again while she's interested or (having sex with) someone else. (at least that's how it's been so far this year).

I don't know if it is appropriate or advised for me to ask the questions that I have. (status of OM, status of us).

I know that is probably a dumb newby question (and the answer is given in DR and Sandi's list) but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask that here.

Is it applying too much pressure to ask her the questions that are on my mind? Will the answers (if given to me) help us? She has asked me what's wrong and what I'm thinking - should I really tell her?

I am happy that I am detached enough to be able to look at this without acting on emotion (as I have done so much). But I know I am not detached enough to ignore everything about our situation.