[gan]

Argh. Lost a couple of posts when the board was down. Thanks to Elsa for her (lost) reply.

Quick recap:
- just coming up on 3 months physical separation. When we separated he said he had been "unhappy for years", "didn't know what was going to happen," "there was no OW" but he wanted to "date other people if the opportunity came up"
- I've had very limited contact with H during this time both in the flesh and via e-means (close to cold turkey). H is an avoider so NC works well for him
- we had a loose agreement that separation would last 3 months, though exactly what was supposed to happen at 3 months wasn't really clear
- the 1 time we did meet up (he initiated, 2 wks or so ago) he said he was glad that I seemed happy, said it made him sad to see me because of all the history we shared but volunteered little else. I didn't ask any questions but did end up saying that my preference was still to find a way back together. He said that "separation was a good decision" and he "wasn't asking me to wait for him"
- brief phone call after that in which I learned that he never went through with the legal separation following the suggestion of the MC in our last session

In my last (lost) post I mentioned I was toying with the idea of asking him for a meet-up to discuss where we are at 3 months down the line. I drafted an email but haven't sent it and I continue to have second thoughts about it. Truth be told I decided to try a lighter approach and broke NC last night with a quick text to see if he wanted to get a drink. That was a bit of a test. A few posts ago I was questioning if I should do a 180 and reach out to him given that NC didn't seem to get me anywhere. He declined and didn't offer up an alternative date…so I'll take that as a no.

So here is the thing, I'm 3 months out and I got nothing. I have no idea:
- if he's seeing a councillor to try to work through things (as he said he would)
- if he's "dating" someone (I agree, highly plausible)
- if he consider's our marriage already ended and wants me out of his life for good
- if he needs more time to make a decision

In other words, R talk. I know, I know. R talk is a DB no-no but even my IC seems at a loss for what to do given the little we know of his perspective (we've even talked about inviting him to a session).

Is it unreasonable for me to want to have some sort of update about where things are at??? I really think H could avoid his way out of this to the point that things just fizzle out and he makes a later claim that we should D because there's been no meaningful interaction for so long.

[gan]

And here's another complexity: when his parents separated in 2005 (when he was ~25) he cut off most contact with them. No one really gets why; there was no abuse or neglect (as far as we know). His siblings continue to have a good relationship with his parents. H contacts his parents once maybe twice a year, though he still interacts with his siblings.

So when I say he is an avoider, I mean he is an AVOIDER. He doesn't work through things. He is capable of being apathetic and walking away from people who love him. I'm not so sure that if I back off and stop the pursuit that he'll turn around and take notice. I've seen a few guys on the forum say that is the "male way" but I'm not sure that applies here. Then again, I watched his mum pursue for years and that got no where either.

So yeah, this whole DB thing feels a bit hopeless at times.

[gan]

^^^^^^^^^^^
Is it unreasonable for me to want to have some sort of update about where things are at???

[Ss06]

I have no idea what to suggest. His avoiding technique seems to be habitual and is stumping me as far as what to suggest.

I hope a vet will chime in and give you some good guidance.

[LisaB]

Hi ganb8te, I wish I could give you some good advice! I don't know!

What a sh!tty situation.

So you went casual and invited him for a drink. Did he just say no, or did he say he was busy or what?

I feel like pushing R talk at this point will not be a good idea unless you are really ready for closure. Since you just met with him a few weeks ago and he wasn't ready to make a move I think it needs a bit more time. Maybe just a few weeks.

Any vets want to step in with some wisdom?

I think pursuing is not a good idea but I see what you mean about him avoiding.

Good luck my dear!
Hugs, Lisa

[Elsa]

I don't think it is unreasonable to want to know where the R is headed. Three months is a long time with no plan and very little communication. If he'd said, at any point, that he wanted a D, I wouldn't reach out, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

But, I think Lisa has a good point. You saw him a few weeks ago, and he didn't seem interested in working on the R at that time. If you reach out now, will you push him into saying he's done? (Although personally, sometimes I wonder whether or not I'd really want to be with my H if merely asking for a status update pushes him that far away.) Or, as Lisa said, do you have a need for closure that outweighs that risk?

If you reach out, I would give a clear reason for seeking out the conversation. You could use the original "three month check-in" agreement as a starting off point, but are there any practical reasons you could give for why the conversation needs to happen soon? Maybe that will make it seem less emotionally involved for your avoidant H.

I feel for you. My H is also extremely avoidant. I have initiated most of the contact during our S and he seems fine with that. He told me recently that he feels the least anxious right after we talk -- and yet, he will almost never pick up the phone to call me. It's bizarre.

[gan]

Thanks, ladies, for stopping by and also for putting out a call to the vets to chime in. It's interesting that there are a few of us LBW here who are all in their mid-thirties. I do feel like this age might be a bit of a cross roads for a lot of people.

I hear you telling me to be patient…I can do that, a least for a bit longer. I'm moving soon and so there will probably be good practical reasons to get in touch with him.

LisaB: the exact text response was "Thanks for the invite, but tonight does not work. Also, I sent an email about the joint account. Do you agree with the figures and are you ok with the transfer." So aside from not volunteering up an alternative date, he hassled me about having not responded to an email he sent THE PREVIOUS DAY. That email was in response to an email I sent 5 DAYS PRIOR providing info that HE REQUESTED vis a vis sorting out the remainder of our joint expenses and tax returns. So I thought I'd use his reply email to propose that we meet up. After he declined to meet up, I responded to his email 2 days later (it's not urgent stuff!) In addition to saying it was fine to go ahead with the transfer I added "I know this is a hard time for us both and I appreciate the effort you are going to to keep things cordial." Maybe that was unnecessary but with him rarely sharing his feelings I rarely get the opportunity to validate. When I did see him a few weeks ago he said he was sad about things so it seemed reasonable to acknowledge this in the email. I do think he's consciously trying to be polite. Thoughts?

Elsa: D is a funny one. Early on when he was still living in the house and I'd not found DB, I dropped the D word instead of S and he was adamant that "he never said he wanted that." At the time I think he might have been under the impression that one could file for D immediately (we have to be S for 12 months here before we can file). I can see him thinking that it takes some pressure off…he does't need to confront the issue now (and it makes him sad to see me so why put himself through it)…but then 12 months from now saying we haven't had any meaningful interaction so let's just D.

Reading over this I can see that I'm showing a few weaknesses (mind reading for one). It's just such a tough situation (no news there for any of you) but the avoidance and family history does add a different twist I think. I see on your thread, Elsa, that people keep advising you to stop initiating, but like you, I question where this will lead in our situations. Guess I will find out...

[gan]

OK - so I won't contact him but I will use this forum as a place to keep working through my own thoughts on this. What if he thinks he's already communicated the end to me and I'm just not hearing it? When we met up 2.5 weeks ago he said "separation was a good decision" and he "wasn't asking me to wait for him". When I said that my hope was that we would still find a way back together he replied with "I'm not at that point (yet?)" (might carry a dictaphone to our next meeting so I can go back and analyze over and over - joke). Is it possible he could think that these statements clearly communicate his decision that this is the end? (Surely not?!)

I actually agree with the first statement since it has certainly brought some new perspectives (could we have achieved this while still living together - I think so, but there you go). As for the second statement, well I take that to mean that he feels guilty about what's going on and so by saying that he's not asked me to wait he's trying to relieve some of that feeling. I guess it does also convey that he thinks I am waiting for him…so that could be a problem from a DB perspective.

One of my new post-separation insights is that I missed important clues about his unhappiness because I was too focussed on trying to convey my thoughts on a situation rather than being more curious about the meaning in his words with a view to really understanding where he was coming from. I'd like to say that this is one of my 180s but I'm not having much opportunity to practice it given the limited communication. I didn't probe into the meaning behind those statements when we met because I think it would be too much right now and I was trying to avoid R talk.

Am I missing clues here?

[Elsa]

G, it's crazy-making isn't it? Sometimes when I let my mind wander I wonder if we will EVER really understand each other because even if the communication is as transparent as it can be, we're still going to ascribe different meanings to the same words. And that's not just a problem with my H, but with (potentially) anyone.

If your H is avoidant, it's possible that he doesn't want to come out say, "It's over," and is trying to drop hints instead. But, for it's worth, my H has said similar things to me and YET he has consistently also said that he wants to work on the R (even if he needs some more time before he thinks he will be ready to do so).

"Separation was a good decision" could mean that he's enjoying being single, or that it's help him gain some clarity about the M and what he could do differently.

"I'm not asking you to wait for me" could be a subtle attempt to convey a lack of hope, or it could be guilt. My H said something very similar in the early days of our S. When I asked him about dating other people during the S, he said, "I don't want to or plan to, but I also don't feel like I'm in a position to tell you what to do because I'm leaving you." When I asked if my dating would end our R, he said, "No, it would actually be kind of validating if you dated other people and still wanted me in the end." A few days later I asked him about this and basically said, "You don't really think that, right?" He said, no, he absolutely didn't want me to date other people, but he also felt like he wasn't in a place to say that.

"I'm not at that point" could mean that he's done, or that he's not ready to reconcile.

I will also say that my H tends to phrase things in a way that sound awfully ominous, but then when asked for clarification it turns out that's not what he intended at all. It's actually something that our MC called him out on a few times. (An example: During our 1st session with the old C, when asked about his goal for MC, he said that he was "committed to the process" of therapy. To me, it sounded like he was willing to do MC but ambivalent about to the outcome. After the session, however, he told me that what he meant was that he has the best of intentions and he wants our M to work. The next week, the C expressed surprise that that's what he'd meant by the words he used.)

The problem is that really being able to understand someone else generally requires their participation. It's difficult with a WAH, that's for sure.

[gan]

Thanks, Elsa. Makes be laugh (in a sad way) that you could provide a positive or a negative interpretation for each of those phrases. I agree - it's just so tough to know. I do hope that there will be some clarity at some point.

Let me ask you - does your H get annoyed when you ask questions? Mine does sometimes and it's frustrating because it is my honest attempt at trying to understand what he meant. I can probably work on my method (reading Non-Violent Communication for some ideas) but I really just wish he could give me the benefit of the doubt sometimes.