People in A's don't think clearly...all their thoughts are focused on getting the next "hit" from the OM/OW. Which is why we all stress not dating the WAS until the OW/OM is COMPLETELY out of the picture.
Hey...the way I look at your sitch is that your W is getting the best of both worlds without feeling any consequences for her choice to continue her A. This is because she has zero incentive to do so because you're not doing anything to show her what a real loss looks like without you.
I am not seeing it here at all. You're just too fear riddled to say to W, "nope, there will be no dating as long as you are involved with OM because I refuse to be in a M with a third party."
When was the last time you told W that you are not willing to be in a "open" M with the OM?
When was the last time you told W that you are not willing to be in a "open" M with the OM?
Last week when we talked about dating. I told her I wouldn't do it if she was still in contact. Lying or not, she said that wouldn't be a problem. And maybe she has ended contact with him. So I either trust her (I know..) for the time being (I'm talking 2-3 weeks max if we would continue dating) or ask her to hand over her phone now, which only comes across as controlling and scares the squirrel away. I'm not trying to argue, but I don't see it as she has to be 100% in just yet. I'm not myself 100% right now. We may go out Wed and realize it's not going to work out.
Are you proposing I don't go on the date with her? Continue to enforce the no OM contact until she is actually ready to work on the M? I'm not trying to claim we're anywhere close to piecing, but I don't think feeling each other out is a bad thing right now. See if we're compatible, have the same goals, attracted to each other, etc. So then maybe that means my answer is that I'm fine with her staying in contact with OM (or not knowing) until we both decide to reconcile???
Are you okay with being in a triangle with the OM if you elect to "date" W while she's involved with the OM?
No, but how do I insure that's not happening . . .
A: By assuming that it IS (still happening).
Tar, the burden of proof is on HER at this stage, and to date her now is going to completely wash away your boundary, and make everything 5x harder for you going forward.
LISTEN TO WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU! You are way too close to it to be seeing it clearly right now. Frankly, this one isn't even close as far as decisions go. (Not to say it's EASY, but it is SIMPLE).
Let's break apart your responses here a bit in order to gain some insight and clarity on the boundary-enforcement process.
Last week when we talked about dating. I told her I wouldn't do it if she was still in contact.
This is where you really, really need to stand firm and not waffle. It sends a message to W that you are serious about not being in an open marriage with a third party.
Lying or not, she said that wouldn't be a problem.
Of course not...she's trying to have it both ways. Nuh no...it's not how it works at all.
So I either trust her (I know..) for the time being (I'm talking 2-3 weeks max if we would continue dating)
You can't trust a person who is in an active affair. Read above what Starsky said about the burden being on W to come clean about her ongoing contact with the OM.
Remember about the shell game? That's how I see W playing it here right under your nose.
ask her to hand over her phone now, which only comes across as controlling and scares the squirrel away.
So what? You're protecting the M and the family. Just take a look at Sho's thread in Infidelity to get some ideas on how he's handling this very thing with his W.
Are you proposing I don't go on the date with her? Continue to enforce the no OM contact until she is actually ready to work on the M?
Not proposing...but actively encouraging you to stay on the path of no-OM boundary. I wouldn't date anyone as long as they're involved with someone else. I have too much self-respect to engage in those silly, sophomoric games that I left behind at the middle school I attended more than 30 years ago. That book is firmly closed for me!
I'm not trying to claim we're anywhere close to piecing,
You're no where even close to that by a long shot...heck, you're not even in the reconciliation phase either!
See if we're compatible, have the same goals, attracted to each other, etc.
Wait a slow cotton-pickin' minute right there! Are you telling me that you still not sure if you and W are compatible after 15+ years of marriage (oh yeah...dating too)??!! This doesn't make any sense at all to me.
So then maybe that means my answer is that I'm fine with her staying in contact with OM (or not knowing) until we both decide to reconcile???
Tarheel, no offense, I wouldn't want you on my debate team for your thought process is quite illogical.
You CANNOT reconcile as long as the OM is in the picture.
No, but how do I insure that's not happening unless she would come back saying 'I'll do whatever it takes'? My W is too proud for that- after 10mos she'd have to admit she was wrong. Right or wrong, I simply do not see her ever saying that. This is her 'I'm going to date Tarheel and see if he's changed' approach.
FWIW, I had way too much pride. I personally believe that stubborn "pride" the WAS clings to is a tough road block in the reconciliation. Pride is one of the reasons a WAW in an A finds it so hard to apologize. I think it was a year of being here on the boards every single day before I finally swallowed my stubborn pride and apologized to my H.
You know her better than we do, b/c we don't know her at all. But let me say this, I believe it is a mistake for the H to compromise his boundary regarding an open M. You want so badly to show her what an improved H you would be....until I wonder if you are giving her this leeway about OM.
If you agree to date her before she ends the A, I think the bigger message to her is that she can cheat and you'll work around it. Therefore, even if she moves back in, you can expect another affair. B/c in spite of changes you try to show her, what has she leaned from her own choices? What work has she done? You are trying to by-pass the fact she is still just like she was when she left.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If you agree to date her before she ends the A, I think the bigger message to her is that she can cheat and you'll work around it. Therefore, even if she moves back in, you can expect another affair. B/c in spite of changes you try to show her, what has she leaned from her own choices?
^^ In other words, Tarheel, your credibility is on the line here.
Tarheel - you have received some pretty sound advice from some wonderful people here. I suggest you follow the path the offer. While, yes, you know your wife - it's fair to say she's not the W you married correct?
A woman NEEDS to respect her H. By you dating without putting your foot down firmly about OM she knows where she can push you and where you will allow her to go with it. It may make her angry in the beginning but I would be willing to bet she would respect you more once the anger subsides. Trust me from a woman's perspective I have a guy that found out about H and I. He has been promising me the world he is very wealthy and offers me anything I want. I'm not interested. I want someone that isn't so desperate. Harsh to say but it's the truth
Please listen to the great advice of these wise posters
Wow, where to start?! First of all, I thank all 3 of you (and others) for taking time out of your own lives to provide insight and advice to me. I hope I don't come across as argumentative, just trying to explain my thought process. I'll try to address some of the points/questions you've posted...
the burden of proof is on HER at this stage
Is it though? She hasn't come back to me saying she wants to make this work, only that she wants to give dating a try to see how we feel towards each other/interact. I think that we're still too early for her to feel she has to prove anything to me. If we were dating in order to rebuild a new R, I would totally agree with you.
I wouldn't date anyone as long as they're involved with someone else.
This is exactly what I told W last week and now she's asking me out. So prior to Wed, should I ask her what the current status is as far as contact? Something along the lines of 'W, I would enjoy going out with you Wed night, but as I mentioned last week, will not do so if you are still in contact with OM. Are you able to prove to me that your friendship is over?'
Are you telling me that you still not sure if you and W are compatible after 15+ years of marriage (oh yeah...dating too)??!!
One of W's points is that she doesn't know that if we met today, that we'd be attracted to each other. We've both changed this past year- I've made changes in myself and she's obviously made changes that I would have never imagined (ex- OM). If this person is the 'new' W, will I still want to be with her? Maybe I'm different than others on here in that after 10 mos of DB, I'm not here to 'win' my W back. I don't know who she is anymore. I'm fully prepared to go out on a couple dates with her and say to myself 'Tarheel, W doesn't make you happy, move on.' Maybe she's not willing to budge on things that I think need improved in our failed M? Our failure wasn't solely my fault and if she's not wanting/willing to fix her stuff, maybe I'm better off moving on. If I've learned anything from these past 10 mos, it's that a successful M takes 2 committed individuals.
You CANNOT reconcile as long as the OM is in the picture.
I agree 100% and I don't think that our date Wed is the first step in reconciling. I see it as the 1st step in establishing better communication, hopefully leading to an eventual reconciliation.
What has she leaned from her own choices? What work has she done?
I have no idea, and I guess that's my whole point in not knowing if we'll move forward after our date on Wed.
Maybe I am too close to things to see through the fog. Maybe my thinking is flawed. Nobody on here, including me, know W/OM's current status. She's told me the past several mos that they are just friends who hang out with the same circle of friends. Maybe they are just friends?? or maybe they are planning on getting M and W is throwing me a bone as they both laugh at me???? But until W and I begin to hang out more, I have no way of knowing her intentions.
If you don't think Wed's date is a good idea, please tell me how I approach W and how/what I tell her since I had agreed to it yesterday. Is it 'hey, you still in contact?' or 'until you prove it to me, I'm not going?'
And I just want to clarify (for what it's worth) that we haven't agreed to date on an ongoing basis, we agreed to 1 date this week.
Just chiming in to echo the others here. I'll add:
If you are trying to demonstrate what a changed man and H you are, it'd be smart to show her that you've become a confident, self-assured, decisive one.
Look, here's the deal: you are trying to re-attract your W. I get that. But I think - despite your words at times - your actions are suggesting that all your self-improvements have been made to try to sway HER to pick you over OM. You've had 10 months to work on you for YOU. And your sitch smacks of fear. If your changes had been for YOU, I think you'd be longgggg over the fear stage by now.
And the only thing that's going to re-attract your W is seeing a confident, decisive, firm-yet-charming Tarheel.
Let's think hypothetically for a minute. Let's look a few months down the road and say you and your W are together. Is the Tarheel you've been lately also the H you would be? Are you willing to allow her, as her H, to hang out with a man with whom she's clearly having an A? No? Then why are you being that man NOW? Your M is doomed for failure if you're going to feel/act/behave differently, in a would-be committed relationship with your W, than you are right now. You're setting the bar right now. (And I'm ASSUMING you really DON'T want to be in an open M, even though it APPEARS you're certainly willing to be right now.)
What would you accept from W if she was living back home? Accept THAT now. What would you NOT TOLERATE in your M? Stop tolerating that NOW.
My biggest piece of advice would be to stop acting out of fear of losing her.
Be a man. A MAN. Not a waffling, bumbling guy she can lead around by the nose.
You're being PLAYED, Tar. You've got enough women on here telling you that. You can believe it.
Also, your W may have pride. But don't fool yourself into believing (or convincing yourself) that it stands in the way of her coming back to you and wanting to repair your M. My H has cheated on me twice in eight years, the first time bringing home a pregnant OW. I was CERTAIN that his pride the second time would keep him from falling on his face and asking "what will it take" to come back home. Think about that: a baby. And a SECOND A. Trust me: NOTHING will stand in the way if she wants to work on things with you. Nothing.
But you really need to back off and let her reach that point. She'll never fully get there while you're letting her keep a foot in your door and one in OM's. I mean: why would she? She already has you on a string. And her needs are being met by two - count that: TWO - men. Why should she change anything?
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
This doesn't make any sense at all to me.