Onto another square

[Paz2014]

I read your posts on my previous thread, thank you! They're unanimous in their message..."find out if he's still lying." Oh, I know he's still lying. I have no proof right now since I'm thousands of miles away but there's that gut feeling that just won't go away.

Right now he's being super friendly. I'm in the friend zone and I hope I'm responding the right way. He's being cooperative and suggesting that we do another three-way call to the bank to separate our stuff. I told him that was something he could do himself and that I didn't need to be in on it but he insisted. He said "I know, but you've had more experienced with them and I would appreciate your help." This sounds almost too good to b e true. It feels manipulative somehow because now I'm not resisting and have clued him in on my plans.

I know after the convo with the bank that he will want to pry a little bit more. How should I respond?

[Paz2014]

I'm having a difficult time today and need a little encouragement.

I'm starting to believe that my H is a pathological liar. It would make a lot of sense especially his haste to get out of the contract for the new build and then just turn two-faced on me.

I snooped today and logged into our home security system account online. Under the history tab shows the date and times the door was opened, closed, and when the alarm was armed or disarmed. It made me sick to my stomach as I got to see his daily traffic behavior since I've been gone. One thing that stood out was a repetition of an event almost every night. The door would open and close and then the alarm would be set to armed. Then a few hours later the system would disarm and the door opened and then closed. Then it would set to no motion meaning no one is in the house. About 15-20 minutes later the door would open and close and then set to armed for the remainder of the night.

I know there can be many different explanations for this but would it be really bad to just say he has someone visiting the house on a nightly basis? I feel tempted to call my neighbor and ask if they've seen anything suspicious. The kids and I have been gone for almost a month. Someone has got to be asking questions.

I feel like maybe I've been lied to throughout our entire relationship. That our relationship started out as a lie because he was still with the undisclosed girl. And as he was growing attached to me he was leaving the other. I found evidence that he was still in contact with her while he and I were just dating. I started to snoop after I discovered the text message she sent him. I confronted him about the ticket stub that showed he was at a show with her one evening...it had her name on it! He said he was just being a friend because her parents fell ill to something and just showing support. So I let it go because we were engaged and I thought that meant something so why bother with the past. He was committed to me now. I know this is a very dark road I'm on but I'm willing to travel down it to find the truth. I don't want to be married to someone who can't /won't be honest with me. Being lied to is...a whole different animal.

Now, I'm afraid to go home. I don't want to have to look him in the face as he continues to lie to me. I feel disgusted knowing that I loved this man, pledge my life to him, and yet I'm not really sure who he is.

[sandi2]

I normally don't advise this, but if you could hire someone to do investigate, it could save a lot of future heartbreak. I mean, he could have another wife somewhere, for all you know! Not trying to give you more to worry about, but just saying, we hear about this happening to others b/c the liars are so convincing! They leave on "business" and go to the OW. The wives are never the wiser. (Of course, that's just a scenario.)

Maybe his past is not that important to you, but if there's something that affects the present situation, or could put you in a dangerous position, you need to know....and protect yourself legally, financially, etc.

I'm truly not trying to plant things in your mind. It may come across as sounding as if I am. I'm very concerned for you and I don't think you have the usual stitch that comes here to the DB board. That's why I am saying that in your case, I think you need to find the truth about who you M.

[Paz2014]

Thanks for you concern Sandi. I appreciate your candidness regardless of how it's coming across. I don't think you're planting things in my mind. As a matter of fact I feel somewhat relieved that someone has validated a nagging concern of mine. I wasn't sure if I had enough ground to pursue it. Most people just don't plan for this kind of stuff.

What's ironic is that this happened to a close family member. She didn't know her H had a completely different set of family and life until 15 years after they were married. They're divorced now but I would bring this stuff up to my H each time I felt insecure. I can't recall if he ever said anything to reassure me that I had nothing to worry about.

On the other hand I feel like I've just fallen back a thousand steps. Correct me if I'm wrong, vets but are my DBing efforts now in vain? I don't recall a remedy for this kind of stitch. I'm so lost...

[Paz2014]

I had another coaching session with Chuck today and it was well overdue. I postponed it for three weeks out of hopelessness and impatience. In those three weeks a lot of negative thought patterns returned and sought refuge in my head.

I choose to act "as if" until I find out otherwise. Yeah, there's overwhelming evidence but there's also just as much stuff to counteract them. This is tough because we're nearing our closing date and I'll be back home in just 5 short days. I haven't seen the house since they started on the construction and I'm almost certain it's complete. Oh my double wall oven that I may never get to use.

I texted him today to see if we could set up a time to plan when we will finish splitting our stuff. I said "when you get a chance today I'd like to discuss how we can proceed with accomplishing the items we discussed last week." He called me back shortly after I sent the text. He claims that it would be his only opportunity to talk today. So I told him that it did not need to happen today but we can agree on a date that will work with both our schedules. He suggested tomorrow evening but I told him that I have plans to go out. His response was "oh, with your brother?" I said "oh no just with my friends." Then I said that maybe Saturday would be best if he didn't have plans. He agreed.

The convo took a surprisingly positive turn. We discussed some stuff about the kids and my son living with his dad. H says he'd like to talk with my son's dad so he can exchange info and his experience. It was a perfect opportunity to validate and so I took it. We ended on a lighter note today and for now it's enough.

[25yearsmlc]

One "bone" to pick with you is b/c I posted a lot to you on some other thread, and now, here I am and I cannot find it. How many threads do you have?

People, You really must stick to ONE thread....there, I'm done with my bone picking...

I had another coaching session with Chuck today and it was well overdue. I postponed it for three weeks out of hopelessness and impatience. In those three weeks a lot of negative thought patterns returned and sought refuge in my head.

I choose to act "as if" until I find out otherwise. Yeah, there's overwhelming evidence but there's also just as much stuff to counteract them.

I support your DB coach's advice (and would not openly disagree anyhow, but I really do agree with Chuck) about dropping the "pathological liar" stance.

Mainly b/c of the reasons you listed, BUT ALSO b/c I don't see you at risk for something MORE than you already are.

Meaning, it's not as if you are now deciding IF you should have a baby together ...and you ARE going to see a lawyer at some point, right?

So, what is the added risk right NOW, if you act as if? I see no added risk.

As for moving out west, imo, there are reasons for it --family is a big one--- but one of those reasons is NOT fighting For your m. B/C moving away will not help you there.

It still may be the right thing to do, but yes, I see it as a big "moving on step"...away.


And btw, unemployment here in most of California, is higher than in VA.... And if you are in northern VA, unemployment there is among the lowest in the nation (b/c I guess the feds in Washington DC are always hiring someone,). Food for thought.

I also believe his questions about your work prospects are at least partly fueled by his financial concerns with or without a divorce.

Those are legitimate concerns I think, either way it goes (together or not) b/c HE is affected, right?



This is tough because we're nearing our closing date and I'll be back home in just 5 short days. I haven't seen the house since they started on the construction and I'm almost certain it's complete. Oh my double wall oven that I may never get to use.


Trust me, There will be other double wall ovens in other houses...and it's a THING, not a R...

Plus, I have one ( it came with the house.) It was VERY pricey and very unreliable!! and so darn expensive to fix ---every time something beeps on it...So you see? you are saving yourself stress!

Truly it's a "Dacor" double oven, the most expensive oven we've ever had, by far AND by far, the least reliable. Bad combo...!

I texted him today to see if we could set up a time to plan when we will finish splitting our stuff. I said "when you get a chance today I'd like to discuss how we can proceed with accomplishing the items we discussed last week." He called me back shortly after I sent the text. He claims that it would be his only opportunity to talk today. So I told him that it did not need to happen today but we can agree on a date that will work with both our schedules. He suggested tomorrow evening but I told him that I have plans to go out. His response was "oh, with your brother?" I said "oh no just with my friends." Then I said that maybe Saturday would be best if he didn't have plans. He agreed.

The convo took a surprisingly positive turn. We discussed some stuff about the kids and my son living with his dad. H says he'd like to talk with my son's dad so he can exchange info and his experience. It was a perfect opportunity to validate and so I took it. We ended on a lighter note today and for now it's enough.

Count that^^^ as a positive. When you go home, be UPBEAT. Act as if you really have had an wakening and you know you are going to be FINE with him...or without.

And please find my post to you on the other thread (don't recall which one) b/c it's a tad long to go find now.

But I just hope you will continue to work on YOU, no matter who or what your h is.

Your children are watching you more than you know.

(((( )))

[Paz2014]

Wounded,

It's a moment of weakness. I woke up and it began with one negative thought that spiraled. I did surrender to prayer and yes it helped. So, thank you!

I feel like he's leaving me in the dark. What am I saying...of course he is! I made it very clear to him that I will not tolerate infidelity in our M. If I did find evidence it would relieve the burden of failure on my part.

Wow, what an interesting way to view infidelity. So if he had an affair, you did nothing wrong and made no mistakes in the marriage?

In sum, it'd mean it's all him, AND You were a perfect wife, (whom he inexplicably left for OW?)?

Is this^^ something you still believe? Dig deep...

Then I can prepare myself mentally and decide if I want to continue fighting or if it's time to throw in the towel. No, I would not be happy about it. It would be devastating. Except, now the truth is out. It will provide some kind of closure. Of course, [b]my staying would greatly depend on how willing he is to work on things.
[/b]


IF he is having an affair currently, there's little chance he'll SAY or KNOW that he wants to work on the m b/c he's too busy justifying the A and your anger is fueling his reasons (which is why showing the WAS anger, does NOT HELP YOU).

You have to BE the better choice, and that's much easier if you do NOT snoop, so you can stay focussed on yourself.

IN fact, the single biggest reason I advise against snooping (and so does DB), is b/c it would take my focus off of MY own work and MY ISSUES, which are my responsibility.

I fear I'd just be blaming my h or OW instead of working on me.


I've read many success stories from marriages that have survived affairs. While I'm hopeful for those, it would take a miracle or a sincere effort on his part to keep me from leaving. I've lived that part in my first and second marriage and have watched my mom go through it. It's no picnic and I will not put my kids through that again.

I'm confused. THIS^^ is different from what you said just before. Be very clear with yourself on this issue and whether you'd entertain the idea of trying to work thru it, or not, or what your timing on that would be etc.

IF you KNOW w/100% certainty that him having an Affair would mean it's over for you, for good, and you'd file for divorce for sure -then maybe you should snoop away and if you can verify, you are done. NO saving this marriage...no working on forgiveness, etc.

FWIW, I do not sense certainty in you about this, at all as you admit others have successfully stayed married after an A, but then you say you won't put your kids "thru that again"...thru WHAT again? Another divorce or seeing forgiveness or what?


But here are some questions you may want to ask yourself....

Since this would be at least the 2nd time you have married a man who was unfaithful to you (and b/c you were also unfaithful earlier),

then what have YOU learned about yourself OR changed in yourself?

How was marriage modeled for you, growing up?

How was forgiveness shown in your family? How are YOU at forgiving others,

and how are you at asking for forgiveness?

What kind of legacy do you want to leave your kids?

Hang in there, we are all rooting for you.

25,thank you for your response and verbal prodding.


Wow, what an interesting way to view infidelity. So if he had an affair, you did nothing wrong and made no mistakes in the marriage? In sum, it'd mean it's all him, AND You were a perfect wife, (whom he inexplicably left for OW?)?
Is this^^ something you still believe? Dig deep...


-I accept my part in the deteriotion oh my M. All my self-protective stance that I adopted from previous hurts/disappointments was perpetuating the same negative patterns in my M. I didn't know. I did the best with what I knew at the time and it wasn't much compared to now. It's a shameful thing to admit that even when we think we're acting out of other's best interest that we're really just looking out for number 1.

I guess my question is: does he have to justify it with an A? It seems so cowardly to me. Looking back now I realize that's what I did when I had an A. My H then had an A so I justified his A with my A. And then I married the guy I had an A with. Some crazy, immature sh!t back then but I regret it. I regret my foolish actions. I regret the hurt I caused. I could never do that again nor put anyone through that kind of pain.

IF he is having an affair currently, there's little chance he'll SAY or KNOW that he wants to work on the m b/c he's too busy justifying the A and your anger is fueling his reasons (which is why showing the WAS anger, does NOT HELP YOU).

You have to BE the better choice, and that's much easier if you do NOT snoop, so you can stay focussed on yourself.

IN fact, the single biggest reason I advise against snooping (and so does DB), is b/c it would take my focus off of MY own work and MY ISSUES, which are my responsibility.

I fear I'd just be blaming my h or OW instead of working on me.
I'm confused. THIS^^ is different from what you said just before. Be very clear with yourself on this issue and whether you'd entertain the idea of trying to work thru it, or not, or what your timing on that would be etc.

IF you KNOW w/100% certainty that him having an Affair would mean it's over for you, for good, and you'd file for divorce for sure -then maybe you should snoop away and if you can verify, you are done. NO saving this marriage...no working on forgiveness, etc.

FWIW, I do not sense certainty in you about this, at all as you admit others have successfully stayed married after an A, but then you say you won't put your kids "thru that again"...thru WHAT again? Another divorce or seeing forgiveness or what?


I have been on the fence. There are days that I'm certain that I want to save it regardless of what he does but then there are days when I don't. I'm not sure how I'll feel once I discover an A. Devastated for sure but what will i do about it? What if he doesn't want to end it and is professing his undying love for the OW? I don't know if I will have it in me to endure to the end.

I think this is where I'm stuck. I feel the need to apply conditions for wanting to save it and I'm not sure if that's setting a healthy boundary or if I'm reverting to a self-protective stance. I don't want to lose my M but I don't think I can sit around and wait for my H to see his A through before he decides he wants to come home. Is this selfish thinking?


But here are some questions you may want to ask yourself....

Since this would be at least the 2nd time you have married a man who was unfaithful to you (and b/c you were also unfaithful earlier),

then what have YOU learned about yourself OR changed in yourself?


I've learned that A are no playing matter. That's some serious sin that I don't ever want to be entangled in ever again. It was the most selfish thing I've ever done and I wish I could take it back. I understand now why M is so sacred in the eyes of God and why it's important to protect it. I've done a really poor job and I can't take back the things I did that contributed to this point but I know what I can do differently.

How was marriage modeled for you, growing up?

Very poorly. I have had at least three stepdads of which two had an A and my mom walked away from the M. While I don't want to be like her and just give up, I truly don't know if I have what it takes to walk through it. I have never had to harness that kind of courage and I'm not sure if I'll have it until I'm there.

How was forgivenesths shown in your family? How are YOU at forgiving others,

Again, poorly. We don't or have never had to ask for forgiveness in our family. This wasn't a thing my mother taught us. We were taught not to mess up so there wouldn't be a need to forgive. If we did mess up then we were expected to know and realize the burden on those mistakes on our own...it was never brought up again.

and how are you at asking for forgiveness?


Probably not as good as I could be. I realize that forgiveness is part of a skillset that must be learned. The learning part however, is what's hard. I fall off...a lot. I want to forgive and do my best to forgive those who have hurt me but I've never learned how to heal from them. I'm okay until I get triggered and then all the emotions that come with past hurts and disappointments resurface and I become even more guarded.

What kind of legacy do you want to leave your kids?


Definitely not one of D. I want to break that cycle but I feel hopeless in doing so in my current stitch. It's like all I can focus on in my mind is him saying "Oh finally! Now, that I'm walking out the door are you getting it and wanting to make changes to save the M?" That's what I would be thinking if the situation were reverse. It's ruthless.

Hang in there, we are all rooting for you.

Thank you! It helps a lot to hear that. I know I will have many more moments like this. Yay. I also know that it may take a lot longer than I'd like to undo and redo what's taken 33 years (of negative patterns) to develop.

[Paz2014]

So I'm back home. He picked me up from the airport and it's been a friendly evening but I feel like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

After being gone for a month it feels odd to be in the house again. The bedroom is just as I left it. Most of everything in the house is just as I left it and yet it all feels unfamiliar to me. Foreign somehow. The bedroom walls and dressers are bare of our wedding pictures. It was my choice to remove prior to leaving for my trip because I didn't know how I would feel coming back home to them still in their place as if nothing had happened. They are still in the corner where I left them. The rest of pictures in the house are still up. This was comforting as it provided a bit of normalcy.

I almost slipped (or maybe subconsciously I wanted to) today by almost acting as if everything was okay between us. I almost called him honey and I almost wanted to sit down on the couch next to him and watch our shows together. Since I was focused on being on friendly terms I got very relaxed and comfortable. For a moment it felt like we were okay again and that I could tell him that I love him again. I didn't but I almost did out of habit. Would have been interesting to see his response.

He did spend at least 20 mins or more in the bedroom with me tonight. I engaged him in a convo about work and he was happy to oblige. While it felt good to be on pleasant speaking terms with him again it still felt awkward. It felt like we were dancing around the big elephant in the room. While I know this is a step towards a positive direction, tonight it doesn't feel like it's enough. I'm back in our bedroom sleeping in this big king size bed alone while he's sleeping in the next room over. Putting all things aside all this seems rather silly.

Tonight, it's just too painful.

[Paz2014]

I forgot to mention that he was still wearing his wedding ring. While this may seem like an insignificant matter at the moment it meant a lot to me. Then again whose to say that he didn't/hasn't taken it off when I'm not/wasn't looking? Truly, I don't know but the point is he still wears it. I haven't taken mine off since the last time I took it off to get a reaction out of him. Which I did btw and that was him handing me the S papers.

[Paz2014]

UPDATE

I just learned from a neighbor that H had been bringing a girl over while I was away. It turns out that it's the same girl he lied about in the beginning. Neighbor confirmed it by the picture I showed him. I'm totally crushed. All those times I was feeling suspicious was NOT unfounded.

I feel like my whole world is crumbling again and even though I have prepared myself for the possibility, it's still not any easier. I'm questioning the authenticity of everything that has happened in the past 6 years...it hurts to my very core. I feel hopeless of any reconciliation and I can't even begin to forgive an offense that he has yet to confess.

What do I do? Please help...