1st post. Long but please read, help!

[sandi2]

Question for the vets. I am getting conflicting advice from my DB coach vs what I've read on the forums here in regards to the 'friend zone' with my STBX.

If you will remember, I told you in the beginning the more sources of advice you received, the more likely some of it would conflict. You are involved in some other kind of program, have a counselor, a DB coach, and here on the board.

I'm probably the one who made that advice on another poster's thread. But I am quick to add that it's only my opinion, not MWD's. Perhaps someone else passed the advice around, IDK. The LBH is hoping this "friendship" will lead to a reconciliation. But the WAW "uses" it to her advantage in whatever way benefits her, not the R. She cake eats. She doesn't see it the same way he does. He has expectations of a reconciliation. She doesn't. If he tries to pull back, then she whines about him not being a friend. He gets very frustrated, and on & on it goes. He is trapped. This isn't what he thought it would be!

Unless the WAW has so much hatred for the LBH that she never wants to set eyes on him again, saying that she hopes they can be friends is as common as the WAW saying ILYBNILWY.

But it's just my opinion that it doesn't work shortly (or maybe longer) after the bomb, and especially if there is a third party involved.

So vets, am I missing something here that would hurt our growth or chances?

Why ask us when you say you're getting conflicting advice? We are just vets, the DB Coaches are the experts.

[Zues126]

Got it. Thank you for the reply.

I know for my STBX friendship would be a first step towards anything further. I know this for several reasons. She has been hurt by my expectations and how I made her feel she never lived up to them, so friendship represents an 'expectation free' zone where she can feel safer. Early on after BD she made several references that 'we don't know what the future holds, maybe we'll move on, maybe we'll be better friends and grow closer', etc. And she has told me in the past she never felt like we were good friends and feels that would have to be at the heart of any R.

HOWEVER I'm not suggesting she's thinking about reconciliation at this point. I agree she is trying to 'cake eat' in the sense of being her own individual self free of my bs that made her miserable, and simply wants to minimize the negatives as much as possible. I've been spending a lot of time trying to understand how different the WAS feels and though its difficult and painful I kind of get it. I listened to "I will survive" repeatedly this morning to remind myself of where she's at.

I will still follow my DC's advise as she knows my situation and has done well for me so far. Also, if nothing further happened I'd still like an amicable divorce and friendly coparenting relationship. I just need to do some thinking about how I set y boundaries so I can walk this balance.

I think my mantra will be 'would i do this for a male friend?' That way I know I'm steering the ship based off of courtesy and good will, not denial and pursuit. That would only hurt and backfire.

Thanks!

[Zues126]

I'm ready for a 2x4. Found an area that I know proves I have growing to do so I'm exposing it so I can get to work!

I'm having trouble feeling comfortable with my sister. My sister left her husband years ago and started a new R. She left him 6 months ago. She's been on a road of self discovery and feeling very empowered.

My STBX hung out with her a few evenings the weekend before BD. she even mentioned that some of the things my sister said helped her realize she wanted out of the R. Since BD she and my STBX have become very close.

Now- I know that my sister didn't cause this. If I had been the H only a fool would leave this wouldn't have happened, and as is this would've happened anyway. Yet I find myself very put off by her. I don't agree with her views towards marriage and R as being disposable. And though I should know better i admit that I don't care for the fact that she gave the 'you go girl you don't need a man' speech to my W. but most of all, my sister keeps wanting to talk to me about how much better off she is and how she's excited about how much better ill be now. I can agree with the growth part but I'm early conflicted. And I'm also feeling strange because I know she's much closer to me W than to me right now.

I have forgiven my wife for being a WAS as I put her in more pain than she could cope with. And I can say the same thing for my sister giving her the benefit of the doubt. But I'm having trouble with being around someone that wants to celebrate it and their freedom having shed the deadweight.

Help me grow. Thank you.

[Paz2014]

This is a tough one Zues. Especially since it involves your own flesh and blood. Feels like a stab in the back i'm sure. I'm not here with a 2x4 but a gentle nudge.

What you're feeling is a natural response. It feels like a betrayal. I resent the fact that my in-laws have suddenly gone MIA and here I thought they were good, caring Christians who loved me and the kids and that we're family. But here I am. I called them a couple times in the beginning for advice and at first they suggested that H and I sit down and really talk it out. That would have been a great idea except H has already moved on to better things and was not interested in talking. And then after a while I was getting the polite "you're on your own but we don't have the guts to tell you that in plain words because we're Christians" speech that I stopped calling altogether. What a way to treat family, huh? Sorry, I guess I had to get that out.

Your W is going to gravitate towards anyone who will support her, remember? It can be anyone. Your sis seems to have had her fair share of pain and so "empowering" herself is her method of coping. Instead of dealing with her M problems she decided to put a band aid on it with another relationship. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of that, please. But, when people aren't looking I betcha she still hurts.

You don't have to agree with your sis beliefs on M and you don't have to listen either. Tell her you disagree and share what your beliefs on M are. Or, you can just nod your head and go about your way and pray. Sis does not seem to share in the sanctity of M but she's not the enemy. I'll give you one guess who is and to him no one is off limits. Be on guard because he will use your emotions to get to you.

Oh, I've started this great book called "Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Travis Bradberry. It seems geared more towards business pursuits but it has section on relationship management. They posit that success in the world is no longer solely based on your IQ but on your EQ. I think this should be a prerequisite to all newbies as a means to get their emotions in check. By understanding our emotions...the why's and how to's, I believe we can all be better DBers. At least it's better than flailing around in which ever direction the wind blows, right?

[Zues126]

OK, so I've decided not to talk about this with my sister. Nothing good can come of it. I just have to breathe deep and let it go. She is my sister. There's been enough negativity.

My therapist told me to take 2 weeks of not trying to do to much to 'improve myself'. He said just being might be the best improvement I can make. He says this because I have a hard time slowing my mind down and this can lead to trouble being in the moment and handling feelings.

I've been GAL. Doing things I enjoy, hanging out with buddies. But tonight I can't get my head around it. In general I'm doing better, but deep down I keep waiting for things to get back to normal. I just want to go home to my wife.

I think what's scary is that we are really out to sea now. We have been, but I can no longer see shore. What I mean is that there won't be any magical falling into each others arms and everything being ok again. It's just too far for that. If I ever see land again it won't be anytime soon. And though I can get by without her, and have been doing well- my spirit misses her spirit. My heart longs to talk to her heart.

Sorry, this wasn't a post for advice, or even sympathy. I'm just feeling very lonely right now. Just want you to know I appreciate all of you for your support.

OK- enough of that moping. I'm going to pray for my STBX and myself, be appreciate of what I've been given, and God willing have a great day visiting my children tomorrow. 180- needs of others and laid back. Good night!

[Maybell]

Zues, sometimes when we go through these extra hard times it's us reaching a new level of detachment and growth. I love what your IC said about just being. That's advice we should hear more often. I know I should.

As far as too far out to sea... Well, you're leaving a scorched country behind so you'll have to find a new one. And just because you're in separate boats now doesn't mean you won't eventually make land in a beautiful new country. As much as we wish for it, as simple as that would make things, it's the people who fall back into each other's arms like that that crash in the long run. You can't build a great life in a scorched country.

Just wanted to let you know you're not alone.

[Old Dog]

Hi Zeus, you certainly aren't alone. I've just come back from a family holiday, but instead of my wife coming along, there was a 'room mate'.

She managed to go the whole time without asking for help applying sun tan lotion to her back - even the bit you can't reach.

Hang on in there mate.

Old Dog xx

[Bob1967]

Hi Zeus, I new to this and screwed things up with my wife but if this was me I would have a sit down with my sister for a heart-to-heart. This is your sister, dude. If she doesn't have your back in this marriage there's a pretty good reason.

I would ask why she thinks your wife and kids are better off without you and what you can do to change this. She obviously has an opinion. Why not get it? The way I see it you sister is giving her opinion to your wife so maybe you should find out what the hell she is saying. You also may want to find out why she is saying it.

Maybe after you talk to her she can give you insight on what is going on. We can't. We don't know your wife.

I would look at it as a job performance review. If my boss secretly told a co-worker why I'm getting fired I would want the information so I change what I'm doing and save my job.

I don't see this as any different.

You know how to talk to your sister. I would go talk to her. I see this as the best opportunity you've had to hear your wives side of the story since this drama began.

Shoot. I wish my wife would talk to someone.

[Zues126]

Thanks for the replies. Tough weekend Dog. Thanks for the analogy Maybel, I like that a lot.

Saw the children today. Made one slip and told my W she looked nice today. That goes against not only being detached and treating her like a friendly neighbor, but it goes against my 180 of being respectful (not focusing on appearance was part of that). Still, she said the same to me a few weeks ago and the tone was casual, I don't know 'damage' was done.

Otherwise just a typical visit. Not much else to do or say. I'm continuing to respect her boundaries and giving her space and time. I'm GAL (doing well at this) and growing towards detachment (but still find my mind drifts to her every car ride, when I'm on my own). Still reading and reflecting (like now) but trying not to overdo it based on what my therapist told me. DEFINITELY thinking a lot about the pain I caused, how she might feel, and reading a lot of the posts by those in her situation.

Before I wish you all a good night just wanted to share something on my mind. It's not deep or anything, just that I noticed I have different levels of operation. This is a rough draft and far from perfect, but it was in my journal so I am sharing. The point is I have to decide which do I let control my actions, my beliefs, my thinking, etc. I am really making a point to operate from the 'deepest level'. That level tells me that I love her with my very soul and I want her to have the time to grow stronger and for me to do the same. And while I hope and yearn for reconciliation, the deepest part of me accepts this reality and forgives both of us for being just human. Goodnight!

Reactions: resentment, anger, impatience, self-righteousness, judgmental

Default behavior: personality issues, tendencies, habits

Attitudes: Unhealthy outlooks, unreasonable expectations

Characteristics: Selfishness, laziness, dismissive, disengaged

Enlightenment: Love, gratitude, acceptance, focused on serving others, celebration, patient, validating, attentive, forgiving, self-aware, accoutnable

[Zues126]

I’m not giving up, just talking about how hopeless I feel. Not just about the R, but about me.

I was a terrible husband. I never thought I was abusive. But if abusive means that I put my wife through hell, pressured her to do things for me sexually she didn’t want, was critical and demanding, felt entitled to more and therefor justified in treating her poorly, and blaming her for the issues between us…then I absolutely was. I would get so angry and depressed I would stop talking to her for months at a time.

The bad news is I haven’t been able to change it. I’ve read journal entries from years ago, emails I’ve sent in the past. I’ve always meant well. I’ve always loved my wife. I’ve always wanted a good marriage more than anything in the world. But I’ve never been able to do it. Even now after 6 weeks of reflection, meditation, therapy, posting, etc, I still think I’m the absolute same. Frankly I think the only reason I’m not angry and abusive right now is because she’s ‘beyond my reach’ and if she were suddenly back with me I’d feel like punishing her for the hell she’s put me through, or demand proof that she wouldn’t do this to me again. Now, maybe I’d be strong enough not to act on those feelings the same way, BUT I STILL FEEL THAT WAY TOO DAMN MUCH.

When I read women’s articles about not putting up with bad men…men who think they’re entitled to sex, beg/pressure to have sex when they don’t want to, ask for things that they don’t want to do, that a relationship isn’t all about sex, etc. I get angry and hurt, like ‘why can’t you understand how much we need this from you! If I was with a women that felt that way I’d NEVER get any of my needs met and would spend my life miserable, rejected, unappreciated, and depressed!’ But then I realize most men don’t feel this way. It’s just me and the other a$$holes that were dumped.

What’s really frustrating is I’m so good at everything else. I’m one of the best pool players in the country, absolutely world class. I play poker and in the last 10 days I’ve won 3 200+ man tournaments for quite a score. I am a very successful sales manager with a bright future in a fortune 500 company. Yet somehow the one thing I really care about- to the point of having given up the opportunity to follow my boyhood dream of professional pool- is being in a healthy relationship, and that’s the one thing I can’t figure out.

I’m realizing that I can read books, go to therapy, pray. But I feel like I need to change by 10 miles and I’m only wiggling a few inches at a time. This once a week therapy seems insufficient, I feel like I need a 6 month intensive rehab to have a chance. I read about how most abusive men never change and women should just stay away, and I think…that’s probably my future. I’m probably going to spend my life working hard every day to change and it’s all a big waste of time because I was just destined to be unfit for a relationship, disgusted with myself, and angry and lonely in the world. This ‘working on myself’ thing seems like a wolf trying to work on being a blasted sheep. Absolutely pointless. And I can’t fathom living like a wolf, I don’t want to be hurt and lonely, or hurt those I love. That’s the point at which I only see one way out.

I don’t know why I’m writing this. I guess I hope that someone can tell me that change is at least possible. Maybe I just needed to purge this out ‘outloud’, and now I can go back to praying for strength, accepting my feelings, etc. I’ll probably be hit with a ton of 2x4s about how I’m wallowing, or self pity, I don’t know. That’s fine. Show me the way out if you’ve been down this road. Or don’t, and I’ll keep on going. Maybe someday I’ll have the answers for someone else.