Tell her why you're going dark/dim and then do it. Its that simple. She then knows that your actions are in that context because you've told her. If she denies, do the hand thing that Starsky mentioned and walk away.
You are in her head ENTIRELY too much and are following a long chain of causes and effects that are fabricated solely in yours. You have no idea if she wants the phone password so she can scrutinize your activity. You have no idea if she's going to say 'see he never loved me'.
Has it ever occurred to you that she knows exactly what she's doing? That she is playing you like a fiddle because your inconsistent actions have showed her that continuing to deny things is keeping you right where she wants you? Why don't you try being consistently dim/dark and see what happens. What is your alternative? To crawl around through her purse looking for her underwear?
Me:38 W:39 No Children BD: 5/13 EA/PA Confirmed: 7/13 W Moved out 12/13
Oh and to add another thing - you have absolutely zero influence with the posse and you never will. They will support everything she says no matter how illogical or ridiculous it seems to you. To her, what she's doing makes perfect sense and she will present it that way to them.
If they don't agree with her, she will stop hanging out with them and risk their friendship and none of them will want that. Looking to a WAW's friends to hold her feet to the fire and make her do the right thing is a lost cause.
So the conclusion is: As long as she is against you, they are against you - so who gives a [censored] what they think?
Think about it - are you going to risk losing one of your close friends because they are having a marital crisis and cheating on their spouse?
Me:38 W:39 No Children BD: 5/13 EA/PA Confirmed: 7/13 W Moved out 12/13
If they don't agree with her, she will stop hanging out with them and risk their friendship and none of them will want that. Looking to a WAW's friends to hold her feet to the fire and make her do the right thing is a lost cause.
All true. I've already seen her drop a few pro-Zew friends, and pick up a few people that last year she called "fair weather" friends not to be trusted.
When my wife started her affair, she renewed a friendship with someone who had previously called her continuously with her (the friend) relationship woes. My wife would give her the same advice over and over and she would never take it. My wife claimed that her friend was incapable of being in a meaningful relationship because she didn't understand what it took to make one work.
Now she is confiding in and getting advice from this friend.
As for the OM - he previously hooked up with 2 of my wife's friends - one of which he had sex with on a neighbor's front porch (unaware to the neighbor) and was very pushy and forceful in trying to hook up with a 3rd. She called him gross and disgusting at one point. He was an extremely poor performer at work (caused some of her projects to be well over budget because he billed too many hours to them)and she complained over and over about how frustrating he was to work with.
Common thread: they both listened to her and agreed with her that I was an evil [censored] - and that's all she needed to keep them around.
One of her other friends liked me very much. She initially took my side and told my wife that she needed to do exactly what people on here say. End the affair 100% and figure out what you really want to do with your marriage. When she tried to get a little tough with my wife (when she 'slipped' and contacted the OM) she got her head ripped off and their friendship was threatened. Now she is firmly in the 'do whatever makes you happy' camp.
Me:38 W:39 No Children BD: 5/13 EA/PA Confirmed: 7/13 W Moved out 12/13
Then tell her you know what is going on......but do not tell her how you know or what you know. Tell her that you will not be in an open M. Leave it at that and do not get into a talk. Let her stew about what you know in detail, how you know, etc. do not start professing how much you love her or what she will have to do to save the M. Just state you know she's in an A and you won't be in a M with three people.
Then remove her things from the master bedroom and stop sleeping with her!! Set it all outside the bedroom doorway and let her have the job of figuring out where to put it and where to sleep.
Your biggest problem is wanting to justify your actions with your W and her friends. That is why you want her to know you know. You care too much what they think about you. That is why you want them to know why you are doing what you do. They are assisting her by encouraging her. When you live your life by wanting your enemies to approve of you.....you become a slave. Free yourself of this type of thinking.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I was out of pocket yesterday (and still dealing with some family things), but you are getting strong, WISE counsel from folks here, esp. Dingo and Sandi. I hope you will give some pause and really think about what they're telling you here . . . they've said it far better than I've been stumbling around trying to.
Z: We can't go on as we are. I love you but I need all or nothing. I won't share you, and you can't have both OM and me. There can't be 3 in a M. If you want to rebuild a new M, end the A and we can start working.
W: 3 of us? There aren't 3 of us.
Z: [Stop Hand] I know all about your A. Please stop lying to me. It's disrespectful of me and our M. It insults my intelligence. Even if we tear this M apart we are going to have to work together to co-parent our children for years to come and we're going to have to speak honestly with each other. Let's start doing that now.
W: You keep talking about 3, there is no 3, when would I have time?
Z: Do I really need to tell you when you had time? At this point, really? W: Yes. There is no OM.
I gave a couple of dates/places.
W: Did you have me followed? Who told you that? Z: Do you think that when a juicy piece of gossip happens to be about you, that people aren't going to spread it, just because it's about you?
W: Well if you know where I am all the time, do you know where I was on Friday? Z: No, I don't know where you are all the time. I have no idea where you were Friday, but how is that relevant?
Z: Can you explain Monday's panties?
long pause
W: We can just keep going as we are. Z: No we can't. The reality is you can choose your A, or you can try to rebuild something with your H, but we can't keep doing this, and I won't wait forever. We can either spend money on L or MC. We have big life decisions to make, and they impact 8 people.
W: [sarc]Well tell me Z, tell me the right choice.[/sarc] Z: I can't tell you how to decide.
W: You think we can just go right back to the way it was. Z: I think that our M is completely broken. Neither of us wants to go back to that. We can try to rebuild something better. We might find ourselves right here in a year, but at least we could say we tried.
W: Well I offered to go to MC and you said I didn't have the right attitude. Z: I said we could only go when there were only 2 people in the M.
W: I have to go now. Z: Me too.
--- Friday morning's conversation:
Z: Did you end your A yesterday? W: I didn't have time to do anything yesterday. What A?
Z: OK, the choice was the A or the M. This is the marital bedroom. It goes with the M. You can sleep down the hall.
I started emptying her closet down to the guest bedroom.
W started throwing my stuff out the window.
W said she wouldn't move out of the bedroom, that I could move, that I checked out of the M years ago, etc. etc. etc. I told her I wasn't moving, I was the one still in the M. I asked that she stop using me as an excuse for her actions.
W phoned one of the posse to come over, and while they were out front talking, I hung all my stuff back in the closet, and finished moving her stuff down the hall.
Posse left, W came back in and started moving all her stuff back into our closet.
W: Isn't it illegal to video people? [that came from nowhere] Z: I think you can video whatever you want in a public place.
W: So where did I go last night, if you know everything? Z: I have no idea. You can go wherever you like.
Then W was very sarcastic and trying to be hurtful by saying: "Yes, I'm having sex with everyone, my name is in every bathroom stall, I'm the talk of the town, and OM and I had sex in our bed and then laughed about you."
Z: Maybe so.
I told her she would be much more comfortable in the spare bedroom, reminded her it's the A or the M, and left for work.
I may go home tonight to find my clothes in a smouldering pile in the fire pit.
----
Quote:
Your biggest problem is wanting to justify your actions with your W and her friends. That is why you want her to know you know. You care too much what they think about you.
I think you are dead on here. I wanted to be the nice guy. Then Starsky's Little Bo Peep analogy comes to mind. But I'm dealing with a pack of wolves. Everyone in the posse has D'd at least once, so I'm up against a lot of practical tactics.
I have no expectation that I caused anything to change. She still denies the A, as expected. She may feel things are closing in. She's finding out she can't afford to leave for a good while, so unless she snaps out of things, she will continue to sponge, and the next move will be mine.
I am disengaging. Not another word. I've said anything I wanted to, and too often. I got it out of my system. If my position isn't clear now, it never will be.
I am not going to torment myself by trying to figure her out. Looking back, there's a long pattern of some serious responsibility issues that she may never get through. She still doesn't own any of them. She has come a long way on some fronts this year, but this A has really messed her up.
I know where I'm going, and I know roughly the timing of what I need to see by when.
I will be true to myself and do everything I can to make myself the better choice.
W has to follow her path and do what she has to do. Maybe we intersect. Maybe we don't.
Update: We're in a whole different place. I can't go into how we got here, and it's not ideal, not how I would have liked to have seen it go down, but it's where we are.
1. A was exposed to MIL, SIL. Both are very pro-M, pro-Zew. They are encouraging W to take her time, not do anything rash. They are encouraging me to do the same. They are talking individually to both of us.
2. W has agreed to NC with OM (May 9). She hasn't made any final determination about me or M or OM. She is simply not sure what she wants to do, and has agreed to NC while she figures it out. I hopefully have long enough for emotions to cool, get some withdrawal time logged. I think what happens next is she will commit to D or M. (pure mindreading)
3. OM has slithered under a rock. The lights are way too bright for him. W has tried to protect him. He is not my business, but my concern is my W, not OM.
4. It is absolutely clear to W that I will not tolerate A any more. MIL has absolved me of any obligations. Things have become very real for W.
5. W has agreed to MC, and we will go as soon as we can. I am interviewing MC's now, looking for one who knows how WAWs work, and understands that W is not committed to anything right now other than giving herself time. She is still generally angry, angry that her family knows, demanding, still feeling very entitled, no remorse, financially trapped. She's starting to become aware that she's caused some major damage that is not in her best interest, but still nowhere near taking any responsibility. I have to find an MC that can deal with this. Hopefully we can start and not blow things up. She has been skeptical that I would even go to MC. I hope that she can get a sense that this can at least make things better even if we D; and as we get more time away from OM that things can truly be productive.
Wow, this is intense. But I think you made the right call. You are taking your power back.
I think for a WAW to come back, she must respect her husband. As long as you are remaining calm and standing strong, she is certainly going to start reeling.
This isn't the end, I think she will start to experience some real anger. I'm not sure how that will unfold but be prepared for it.
Staying calm and confident is going to be key here IMO. Don't let her bait you into a fight. Detach as best you can, I'm sure the stress level in the house is off the charts.
