hope456, part 2

[25yearsmlc]

Life is not always about being happy, or satisfied its about keeping on going.
About learning and being better.

I think our purpose of loving and receiving love are happiness generators and working on ourselves to achieve that is our purpose in life. To love, be loved (many of us are not good recipients of love, and that hinders our ability to give it w/o expectation)

to do right by others and ourselves.

I guess my point here is that telling a WAS that happiness is not what life is about, will NOT HELP. It will confirm their choices to leave us, and they'll see us as the competition to happiness...

Be happy, OR BE WITH ME...and we don't want that equation.

[25yearsmlc]

I'm really stuck on thinking the getting D is a huge failure. I feel as though I failed as a wife AND as a parent. I really, really don't know how to deal with failure. I don't allow myself to fail. I keep going until I succeed with whatever my goal was.

Then welcome to the world of humanity. WE ALL "FAIL" at somethings...OR do we have "learning experiences" and improve? I choose to see it that way.

My D7 will now be going through the same thing I did as a seven-year-old when my parents split up.

No, she won't. Your mom married a lot of OMs and you felt she abandoned you. (Did I get that correctly?)

If so, Your d will never know that feeling, will she? Don't equate the two so much. There are similarities- yes, but there are also differences.

H says he realizes the effect this will have on her and he's sorry that she will be "collateral damage." I wanted to reach through the phone and punch him in the face.

He has no idea what is coming. Much of it comes in their teen years or 20s...
IF she tells him...maybe they'll just have a very distant r, and that's probably the likely outcome if he doesn't get real help. MAYBE his IC will help but maybe not. (For all we know, the IC delayed the D request so we can't assume the IC is worthless, but a lot of them are pretty much listening boards to tell you if you are insane or dangerous and they leave everything else alone, which isn't helpful to families).

I am witnessing the "collateral damage" now with my own h, and it ain't a pretty picture. (I feel great compassion for my h, NOW, b/c he's in a lot of pain that is self inflicted. I think that might be the worst kind & that is HIS own damage so it's collateral but it's also direct...)

I already feel sorry for your h...but that's not your job.

You're responsible for your own happiness as are all of us. Now is the time to model that for your d. And to focus on her, being in the moment (huge life lesson for me as well).

She's watching you...what's up with the GAL?

[25yearsmlc]

I don't know how to be hopeful about this anymore. I don't feel like there is any left. If he's resolved in his head that things can't change because he's not "in love" (WTF does that even mean???), I'm not sure how I can hope. He has a mental block that isn't going to allow change. And he's perfectly fine with our family being collateral damage.

he's not perfectly fine and you have to stop that mind reading, which only serves to blame him, anger you and achieve nothing. Plus it is unlikely to even be true.

Anyhow, how terrifying for him to have to hope he's always "in love" when he marries or dates anyone. As if love is not at least partly an act of will/choice.

Gee, guess he'll never remarry b/c there are NO guarantees and love and happiness might not fall into his lap...

Try this exercise for 5 minutes, please. Imagine that back when things were good (as far as you know, that was early last fall). Now, imagine your h had died tragically in an accident.

You grieve, of course. Time passes, and you actually find yourself healing. Let's say a few years passed...

Can you tell me now, what would your life look like without your h, but with thou being happy?

IOW, what would you likely be doing for work? And what about any new hobbies? A class, a new language, a volunteer project, what specifically can you imagine doing as a single mother in that position, that fits into the "I'm happy" scenario?

ENVISION THIS with details and flesh out that vision...tell us, what's it look like?

Think about it....and then, and only then,


ask yourself which of those things you can create for your life, NOW?

B/C you do have to learn how to be happy without your h. Whether you D or not, you DO need/want to be happy and only you can make that reality.

So let's hear some ideas...please. I swear this exercise helped me to GAL.

For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter.

And I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know, I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL or "I have a child!"). That's more of a reason for GAL!

Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.

I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.

I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.

I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.

I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)

I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).

In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.

(I know that those tanning booths post skin cancer risks. I made the choice I felt was healthiest for ME at that time).

Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.

Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).

Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.

(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)

Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking

There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.

[KGirl]

I think that having a friendship with my H helps to keep some connection alive. However, the thought of him being physically intimate with someone else is something I'm not sure I can handle. He has mentioned that it bothers him that my mind always goes there (him sleeping with someone else). He claims to have no interest in that. Maybe because my LL is physical touch, it's that thought that bothers me most. He would be giving what I desire so much to someone else.

This was a few posts ago, but just catching up now...

Ugh, I have that same feeling. I don't know if I could handle him being with someone else physically. I wouldn't want to hear about it or know about it and I'd kind of have to if we were still friends, right? Given when you started dating perhaps you have the same situation but...my H and I started dating when we were 17 so we were each other's only physical partners, and in my current frame of mind, if he were to be w/ someone else and then want to get back together, I would feel so crushed - that status that we had would now be gone forever. I don't know that I could get back together with him without wondering about that/having that image pop into my head. That same thing that is so valuable to me, is part of why my H wants out - he doesn't feel like he's experienced what's all "out there" and feels like he hasn't really lived his life by only being with one person (nevermind the other times he thought that's what he wanted, we broke up, he didn't date anyone else, and then decided I was really what he wanted..?!) I guess that's something I'll have to get over when or if we D, 'cause I probably won't want to be spending the rest of my life celibate...

Also, the thought exercise 25 just posted is so valuable. I do the same thing when I'm struggling with what to do or what new things to add to my life. The only change is that I tell myself H just disappeared off the face of the earth rather than tragically dying, something about that makes me a little sad.. but same concept I guess. If he just disappeared and there was no way he'd ever be around again, what would you do differently? I found this helpful when I'd start to have thoughts like.. should I buy this certain thing 'cause H would like it? Should I try to make dinner at a certain time? Will joining this group take too much time away from whatever else I'm doing (which I then realized really meant "will it take time away from being in H's presence and liking that I know exactly where he is?").

It's funny - my H has also said he has never wanted to be like his dad, but yet here we are in a not so different situation. His dad was emotionally unavailable, just went to work, came home, and watched TV, and justified not being there for his wife and kids because he brought home a paycheck. H's mom has told me about how she had wanted to D him early on when the kids were young but her pastor said that God had a plan for them and to stick with it, and she wished she hadn't listened. He was not a nice person and just avoided talking about difficult issues. H's logic is that he doesn't want to end up in a loveless marriage like his parents, so he wants to get out now because he thinks that will happen to us, too... what I see that I guess he doesn't is that his dad never made an effort to change that dynamic, and if there was an effort, it doesn't have to end up like that. But, not much to do about that now.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

one comment about "failure" and divorce. What if you are married for, say, 35 years, and have raised 5 kids who are good people. What if 33 of those years you are happy (according to both partners),

and then one partner checks out, for whatever reason?

So, the whole marriage and family life are all "a failure"?

I'd say they had a good thing going they can be proud of, they raised 5 good kids, and then, one or both of them broke down.

Cars break down. They are not "failures" but they do fail. Sometimes they were poorly made cars that never ran well, but other times they were reliable, fun cars that suddenly hit something and never worked the same. OR they needed repairs, the repairs were made and the car was fine OR the repair was not made...

Sometimes no one changed the oil and the well made, well running car, "fails"...

I think you can be successful and later, not be so successful. It cannot negate the reality that for some amount of time, things were good.

IF that is true, it will always be true. (Meaning, at some point you were happy and the marriage was good, working, succeeding).

Later it stopped. I do get why you say failure, & how badly it feels...(Truly, I get it)

but I don't want you to apply it to your whole existence. That's like saying your beautiful child was part of a mistake.

Make sense?

[T-boned]

Whoa, KGirl and 25yrsmlc!!! I just stumbled on to this thread and unfortunately I am way out of time to devote to reading prior posts, but what you guys have posted here is soooooo valuable to me too! Thank you for the advice! I'll be back this weekend to learn about who you are posting to and check out each of your threads. I've been feeling a little low today, but just reading what you guys posted here has brought me back up and given me lots of food for thought. Whew! Again, thanks!

[labug]

The only people who never fail are those who never do anything.

Failing at something doesn't make you a failure.

[paul19510]

I agree with bug and 25. I really like their pint of view on this one.

[hope456]

Wow...Lots of awesome stuff here today. Thanks to Paul, labug, 25, KGirl, Vossy, Upwards, LongRoad, and MrBond (and anyone else I may have missed) for reading and for your support. It means so much to me. I've been reading through as stuff was posted today, but wanted to sit with it for a bit before responding.

Life is not always about being happy, or satisfied its about keeping on going.
About learning and being better.

I think our purpose of loving and receiving love are happiness generators and working on ourselves to achieve that is our purpose in life. To love, be loved (many of us are not good recipients of love, and that hinders our ability to give it w/o expectation)

to do right by others and ourselves.

I guess my point here is that telling a WAS that happiness is not what life is about, will NOT HELP. It will confirm their choices to leave us, and they'll see us as the competition to happiness...

Be happy, OR BE WITH ME...and we don't want that equation.

25 - First, thank you for stopping by. I'm very grateful for your insight. I absolutely do not want that equation. I actually do think that happiness is a hugely important part of life. I just think they are way too many people out there who see happiness as a thing you find and possess instead of as something that you create.

WRT failure - Several of you have posted about that. The truth is, if I were talking to a friend, or my sister, or my D7, I would definitely tell them what you are saying to me. It's harder to convince myself of the same thing.

My D7 will now be going through the same thing I did as a seven-year-old when my parents split up.

No, she won't. Your mom married a lot of OMs and you felt she abandoned you. (Did I get that correctly?)

If so, Your d will never know that feeling, will she? Don't equate the two so much. There are similarities- yes, but there are also differences.

Yup, you got it right. My mom has been married 5 times and had a bunch of live-in boyfriends along the way, too. She wasn't around consistently from about age 8 until around 14. To add to that, my dad remarried when I was 13. His new wife was closer to my age than his and couldn't stand the fact that my dad had three daddy's girls who were used to getting lots of his attention. I really do think I've forgiven my mom. I've accepted that she is limited and I love her anyway. Still, I wouldn't wish that experience on my D7, ever. I think it is probably irrational that I'm so focused on the age 7 thing. Two of my very good friends also had their parents D when they were 7. I did ask my H today if we could wait to finalize the D until after her birthday. He acted really irritated, but said that he would consider it. It was pretty clear that he doesn't understand the D process in our state at all. I'm at an advantage there since my sister is a family law attorney. He thought that the D was automatically final 60 days after filing. I explained to him that the process didn't work that way and we either had to come to an agreement as to terms for the decree, go through mediation, or have a trial before the D would be final.

He has no idea what is coming. Much of it comes in their teen years or 20s...
IF she tells him...maybe they'll just have a very distant r, and that's probably the likely outcome if he doesn't get real help. MAYBE his IC will help but maybe not. (For all we know, the IC delayed the D request so we can't assume the IC is worthless, but a lot of them are pretty much listening boards to tell you if you are insane or dangerous and they leave everything else alone, which isn't helpful to families).

I am witnessing the "collateral damage" now with my own h, and it ain't a pretty picture. (I feel great compassion for my h, NOW, b/c he's in a lot of pain that is self inflicted. I think that might be the worst kind & that is HIS own damage so it's collateral but it's also direct...)

I already feel sorry for your h...but that's not your job.

You're responsible for your own happiness as are all of us. Now is the time to model that for your d. And to focus on her, being in the moment (huge life lesson for me as well).

She's watching you...what's up with the GAL?

I do feel sorry for my H. I believe that what he is going through must be really difficult. He seems to be in denial about some of the effects this is having/will have on our D. He has said repeatedly that leaving is necessary so that he can be a better father and a better man. That doesn't make any kind of sense to me at all. He seems to think she is and will be fine. Oh, and if there is an effect on her, then that is as it has to be because he has to worry about his own happiness for once. My H doesn't talk to me a whole lot about his IC, but some of the things he has mentioned make me doubt her helpfulness. One of the first things she told him was that if he wasn't happy, then he definitely needed to change the situation. To a person who already is almost certain that they want a D, that seems to me to just be telling him that he's doing the right thing. She may have meant that he needed to make a change to the situation (which could have included working on the M, instead of leaving it), but that isn't the way he took the advice.

For GAL, it depends on whether or not I have D7. You'll get no excuses about being too busy here. One of the first things I did after BD was cut way back at work. The amount of time I spent working had a negative effect on my M (love 20/20 hindsight!) and I decided it wasn't worth it to me to keep up the pace I had been keeping. When my D is with me, we're very active. We walk to the duck pond to feed the ducks and turtles, go to the zoo, go to the library, go to the movies, go shopping (she doesn't love shoe shopping yet, but I'm trying!!!), got to the science museum, and a bunch of other stuff. Tonight was a school night, but we want to a favorite restaurant for dinner and then came home and worked on creating artwork together. Without D7, I haven't been as good. I'm determined to start running again and get back in great shape. I'm also going to look for a yoga studio and check out the schedule to see what will work for me. I have started volunteering at the local food bank. I've also become involved in church again. I have a great set of friends who are always around when I need to get out, but I need to be more diligent about planning things with them.

he's not perfectly fine and you have to stop that mind reading, which only serves to blame him, anger you and achieve nothing. Plus it is unlikely to even be true.

Anyhow, how terrifying for him to have to hope he's always "in love" when he marries or dates anyone. As if love is not at least partly an act of will/choice.

Gee, guess he'll never remarry b/c there are NO guarantees and love and happiness might not fall into his lap...

I've seen you say on other threads that you wouldn't want to be the WAS. I completely agree. I think his road is likely a lot harder than mine. You're right. He isn't fine. He doesn't seem happy at all. He is moody and seems depressed most of the time when I see him. It's clear that he's being affected. He does not think love is a choice/action. He sees it as a feeling only. He's told me as much. He's also said that he will never get married again. I know not to believe him. He has no idea what will happen in the future. At one point, he told me that even if we got back together, he wouldn't be interested in ever marrying again. I told him that I had zero interest in a long-term relationship where marriage wasn't on the table. He came back to me a while later and told me that he would want to get married again if it was to me.

I have more, but this post is already so long that I'm going to start another one.

[hope456]

PS

one comment about "failure" and divorce. What if you are married for, say, 35 years, and have raised 5 kids who are good people. What if 33 of those years you are happy (according to both partners),

and then one partner checks out, for whatever reason?

So, the whole marriage and family life are all "a failure"?

I'd say they had a good thing going they can be proud of, they raised 5 good kids, and then, one or both of them broke down.

Cars break down. They are not "failures" but they do fail. Sometimes they were poorly made cars that never ran well, but other times they were reliable, fun cars that suddenly hit something and never worked the same. OR they needed repairs, the repairs were made and the car was fine OR the repair was not made...

Sometimes no one changed the oil and the well made, well running car, "fails"...

I think you can be successful and later, not be so successful. It cannot negate the reality that for some amount of time, things were good.

IF that is true, it will always be true. (Meaning, at some point you were happy and the marriage was good, working, succeeding).

Later it stopped. I do get why you say failure, & how badly it feels...(Truly, I get it)

but I don't want you to apply it to your whole existence. That's like saying your beautiful child was part of a mistake.

Make sense?

It does make sense. It really does. I just can't seem to talk myself out of feeling that way so far. I don't believe that my M was a mistake. I wouldn't give up my D7 for anything. It's so hard to accept that I can't fix this, for my sake, for hers, and for my H's.

But I see this SO MUCH I'm wondering if it's genetic or some weird acting out, but it ends up hurting the ones you love the most, or should. MEANING, a lot of men here walk out on their families, but they come from that same background and resent their own dads for doing what they are NOW choosing...I think your h is about the 10th man I've read about, who comes from that background and "vowed" never to do that to HIS kids...and then does it. And regrets it, even while doing it. I believe guilt converts into anger/blame at the source of the guilt, which will usually be the LBS.

So I always tell LBSers NOT to "Try and guilt the WAS" b/c it never ever results in a lasting reconciliation. Shame is not a motivator for genuine lasting change. MY DB coach said something along the lines of "while it's rare that an LBSer admits to wanting to guilt their spouse, all the questions that start with "how can you do..." OR "why did you..." are designed to make the recipient feel defensive.

Those ("Why?" and "HOW CAN YOU...?" are the types of questions to be avoided..." and I think that is a great insight of hers. Keep it in mind, b/c the guilt that you participate in (not that he feels on his own, at night when he used to tuck her in, or knows he missed out on something, etc) is guilt that will backfire on you. The other things, the consequences that LIFE gives him, are his to handle, not yours.

I assume since you met while you were a freshman in college, your h does not have a lot of experience seeing you with OMs. I cannot see how it would hurt the situation, but I'll finish reading your thread...
And It helps to know there are good men out there. THIS site has proved that, as well.

I also wonder if there is a genetic component. He is so scarred by what his dad did and, yet, here we are. He sees this as completely different from what happened with his dad (and what happened with my mom) because we are different people than my parents were. And then he doesn't show up when he's supposed to. Yup, totally different. I'm definitely guilty of what you mentioned regarding thinking that I'm not trying to feel guilty and then asking WAY too many of those questions. I really do need to work on that. It is more of the same behavior that is obviously not helping the situation.

WRT OM's, no, my H doesn't have a lot of experience with seeing me with them. There were some people who I was casually involved with before we got together that were from the same circle of friends that he was and he has always been insanely jealous of that (even though he was engaged to someone else). He vehemently denies this jealousy, but the fact that he asked questions about specific things that occurred before we got together years into our marriage makes it pretty clear that he was bothered by it.

3 things to do/think when he talks about the future or your M or R...(which you do Not bring up unless it's b/c you are filing and letting him know...)

1) pay NO attention to spew or his "thinking out loud;" just don't --- UNLESS

2) you can listen for clues or "intel" about what was missing/"wrong" in the marriage, that you can control or change, AND which you would like change...so you can become a woman only a fool would leave...

IF you act like you are on a recon assignment, gathering "intel", instead of getting defensive or fearful, you LISTEN for useful info for later analysis. If it's not useful or it's too hurtful, you STOP letting it in.


3) IF HE brings up a painful piece of the past, AND IF there was something you did that hurt him, you can say "H, I'm sorry I hurt you. IF I had it all over to do again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

IF HE brings up something from the past that is not true or you do not recall it that way (and trust me, our memories get foggy too, so don't call him a "liar" like THIS woman almost said to her h...but before I could blurt out something in anger (brilliantly), my oldest d mentioned that it was true! So I really had not recalled it that way at all!)

You can say "Wow, that's not how I recall 'X' at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt, (and then repeat the second clause) "and if I had it all to do over again, I'd do a lot of things differently."

Those^^ responses show YOUR ability/desire to change, your genuine regret about pain you caused, and neither response is overly defensive on your end. They don't escalate matters, but nor are you kissing up for something you don't even recall, so you're not being a doormat.

Thank you for this ^^^. I love this practical advice that I can read everyday and apply to my situation when the opportunity arises.

She also suggested that he might feel that this (a D) is the only thing he has control of that I can't change. So, if I just let it happen, it allows him to feel in control.

You have no control over this.^^ You cannot make it 'not' happen so the statement "if I just let it happen..." suggests you are under the illusion that you do have some control. You don't. You can file, or you can stay in limbo waiting for him to file. That is what you control.

I really, really don't like that I have no control over this. I do get it though. I think I did a bad job of explaining what she was trying to get it. My friend was suggesting that I don't get in the way at all. Once he files, I just sign the paperwork. We have some custody things to discuss, but this really should be relatively amicable. She thinks I should try to slow it down, but speed it up as much as possible once he files. In essence, just give him what he says he wants without any argument. Yes, I know that's what is advised here, too.

And now for the exercise in envisioning a future without my H...

My D7 would be my #1 priority. I would spend lots of quality time with her, being a girl scout troop leader, or coaching a soccer team, volunteering at her school. I would be involved in the community, volunteering at the children's hospital and the food bank. I would be physically active (running, yoga) and in great shape. I would still be working hard at a career that I love. I would spend lots of time with friends and family. I would be the mom in the neighborhood whose house all the kids want to be at.

So, what can I do now? I have already started volunteering at her school. I also was asked (and accepted) an officer position at her school's PTA. I have started volunteering, but want to commit to a regular schedule. It is very important to me and something I always made excuses about before. I could start running and sign up for yoga right now. I really like my job, but am not so pleased with my company, so I'm looking for a new job. I can start being a better friend. I get "busy" so I don't call or hang out with them as often as I should. I love them and they are always there for me and I need to make keeping those friendships more of a priority.

Am I on the right track here?