Wife in MLC and getting ready to go #2

[TSquared2]

One thing I learned to do here, Matt, when I was emotional, was to try to preface my post with "venting", "rant mode", etc, so that it was clear to readers my intention of the post.

[ForeverYoung]

I'm not convinced Matt is understanding any of our posts. He seems to keep posting his same thoughts over and over... him as the victim in all this.

Matt, I don't say this to pick on you. I say it because I truly believe there is much here for you to learn from. To make things easier for you. But you gotta open your mind and accept some new stuff. Or at least give it some thought. Seriously. Reread what has been posted to you with a beginners mind.

[Matt165]

TS,
I do take responsibility and have tried to say how badly I feel if I came off condescending and how sorry I am that I let my frustration come out in my words. I truly am sorry and do see how my choice of words was...unfortunate? Before I saw this post I wrote another which started off with how badly I feel about that as I know that cat was only trying to help. Not sure what else I can say. I have found that in a world of texts and emails and short posts, many times the way a person reads say an email, myself included, can be totally opposite than what was intended by the writer. One of the reasons I try to not rely on this kind of correspondence in business or important situations.

I also am well aware that my state of mind at the time I read cat's post had an effect on her intended message and most certainly read into it things that she had no intention for me to. Everyone here is dealing with varying levels of stress and going through some of the most awful periods of their lives. We have seen our lives turned upside down by the very person we thought we could most count on, had friends and family who just want what's best for us disagree with the effort we are making to stand for our marriages while at the same time having to take spews of venom from the person we were just defending to them saying that they are in "pain' and in "crisis". None of which is an excuse but at the same time there will be times when we may react to a given post or situation in a way we may regret in retrospect.

Again, all I can say to you and cat and anyone else who may have found my post condescending is that it wasn't intended that way nor do I dismiss or disagree with any part of anything said and do appreciate that her intentions were nothing but good and trying to help a person who is trying to deal with a bad situation. It is sometimes hard to not react defensively when for so long I have had to be so careful to keep my words and emotions "in check" while having to listen to spews of venom while being told I am doing or thinking things or ways I never have and never would and NOT be defensive or disagree. None of this makes it OK but I hope can give you some idea of why I may have reacted in a way I now regret.

If you read the rest of that post after that first quote I hope you can see that I did take responsibility but maybe needed to be more specific. No where in the post do I say I'm NOT responsible, to the contrary, I had hoped that I made it clear I do see how someone could take what I said this way.

I know your intentions in your post but I could also read it another way...are you saying you are 'smarter" or more educated than I am when you talk about the writing courses you took in college? I don't believe that was your intention, don't get me wrong but do you see what I mean by the "tone" being provided by the reader? I could easily find you telling me I DON'T think I'm responsible for how my words were taken because of just the first line of my post as "condescending" when I go on to say that I was sorry and it was not my intention to come off that way. Again, I don't believe this was your intention by any means but it illustrates my point.

In the end, all I can say is it wasn't my intention to be insulting nor condescending. If you choose to think my apology insincere there isn't anything I can do or say that can change that. In the future I will try to choose my words more carefully.

[TSquared2]

I chose my words very intentionally, especially the question about responsibility.

Let me use something from my own sitch.

One of the biggest things I have learned here is there is no need to defend myself. And I was an amazing self-defender system. When W would confront me on stuff, have issues, etc, I was already 3 steps ahead of her with valid, logical reasons why I did something, was going to do something and why I was right. Her thoughts and feelings were not heard.

I was also a first class fixer, when W would come to be with issues, I was figuring out how to resolve the issue before she finished speaking. I didn't listen to her fully...


That ^^^ is also controlling behavior.

And for years my W felt not fully heard, her opinions not fully valued, by me. And because I AM rather smart, she felt inferior, which fed her lifelong depression and self-esteem issues.

Thing is, I did NOT know or see that ^^^^ when I first got here. The vets and my "classmates" here helped me to get that those ^^^ were things I was not aware I was doing (there are a couple vets here who probably have a custom 2X4 with my name carved into it...).

We don't have to defend ourselves because every one on this earth is doing the best they can at the time with the tools they have, at THAT TIME. Including our MLC spouses.

So while I WAS a pretty damn good man, husband and father before W's MLC (even W says so again, NOW, lol), thanks to the people and the tools here, and that I finally looked at the sitch and MYSELF with a true beginner's mind, I am even better. Everyone wins when we do the self-work that this opportunity provides, and heck, doing the self-work is a more productive use of this time than fretting about what W is up to, because they are on their own time table that we didn't write.

Here's a tool for you:

I was a horrible mindreader and analyzer, ask anyone. Due to my science and engineering background, it is my natural way of existence. I would get all spun up and frustrated as heck. Not good for the kids, DB-ing, work, me. Worked myself up a lovely bleeding ulcer. Thanks to the people here in persisting with getting me to see that this was not good or helpful, I re-framed this into a socio-athropological research experiment in my mind. This putting it into "science" mode was a natural way to help me detach and be the unemotional/distant observing scientist. I would jot down my notes about her antics/spew/crazy, go hmmm, and be able to not get all spun up.

But I had to look at things differently to get there, and these people here helped me do that by holding up lots of mirrors to me from my postings, and I had to take a beginners mind to everything to see what was being reflected back from all their different perspectives.

[uRworthy]

Hiya Matt. (And Cat, FY and T. )

M, forgive me as I havent yet read through all your posts. You have some pretty amazing people posting to you here.

Just a few things, if I may. You said you have been dealing with your wife's MLC for years. So, Im thinking that you should be at the point where the things she says and does shouldnt really be surprising and upsetting you still so much.

That's not to say that they arent upsetting, just that you are still so affected by them.

The thing about that is that it doesnt serve you well, right? You are kind of just spinning your wheels.

So, what can you do to stop doing that? Detach.

To me that means not allowing her words or actions to affect yours. It means that you are going to be your best self regardless of what she is saying or doing.

Now I understand that you feel you were a great h. I dont know you. Maybe you were. I thought I was a pretty darn good wife and person. Was I my best self, though? No, I wasnt.

The thing about this journey is that you are being given an amazing opportunity here. One you might not have ever gotten. It is one in which you get to look inside and see what needs fixing. And we all need some of that. So dont give it away. It is too important.

You are still very wrapped up in your wife and what she is saying, what you think she is thinking and being really angry.

The sooner you let that all go, the sooner you get to the good parts. Yea, there are many. Trust me on that.

The way I started was looking at people I admired and why. I looked really deep inside at my issues. We all have them. I started digging into why I was who I was and how I wanted to be different.

This stuff isnt for the faint of heart. But man, it could change your life.

Let her go for now, Matt. She is on her own journey. Honor your marriage and your wife by allowing her to walk it.

[Wonka]

Matt,

Hiya...sorry have been MIA for a while. Working on my conga moves for a family wedding!

Why I married a person who didn't "believe" in D. Who swore they would do whatever it took it work things out. Found out just how hollow her promises were the hard way.

Nope. You've got this backwards. When the MLCer is "normal" and healthy in the beginning, that would be how they'd think and behave toward their spouse. It does not necessarily mean that their promise was "hallow." They meant every word they spoke at the altar. Now in MLC, not so much. At THIS moment, it's how they feel and think because of the pressure they're feeling and trying very, very hard to expel that pressure: YOU. Wonky thinking process is just that...VERY WONKY!

I found a bag of "trash" that my W left for me to put out. As I was carrying it it fell open and out came every card, letter, "love" note, Valentine I ever gave her. She threw away all of it like it was nothing! Why is it they can be so horrible after so many years together? It's one thing to "change" how they feel but to be so dismissive of feelings that they once had, I don't understand that.

This isn't surprising at all. For me, I wanted Ms. Wonka outta my face NOW! They see the mementos of the marriage as pressure to them so they try to hide or get rid of the 'evidence.' Talk about WONKY thinking! Ayep...a temporary insanity.

If he would stay the hell out of our marriage, I really doubt my wife would leave. It would give her a chance to get thru the tunnel without having to destroy her family but FIL is so damn determined to get her to leave her family he is coming 1100 miles to inject himself into something he caused in the first place.

WRONG-O buddy. FIL, OM, purple paint, Oreos, Nerf football...does not matter what "point of blame"...is totally irrelevant to the MLC process. They latch onto whatever comes by and off they go to the funny farm. What I am hearing you say here is that if FIL had stayed away, your W would come out of the tunnel. Nope. Not the case at all. The MLCer comes out of the tunnel when they begin the re-integration process. This is when they realize that the EXTERNAL isn't what is causing their unhappiness. It hits them slowly that it is ALL INTERNAL. Now FIL coming into the picture allows W to work through her chit. Yep, it ain't a pretty process.

It is the cards that you've dealt with. It is no use saying, "if only FIL had stayed the f*ck away, then our M would be cotton candy happy!" Not true at all. In fact, there are some real stuff on your side that YOU must work through. Welcome to the DB school of hard knocks...yep, my 2x4 is painted pink with some sprinkling of gold glitter! You have A LONG way to go before you really "get" the DBing process.

My parents have told me from the start of this to tell my W they love her and are worried about her. They are worried about me and my kids of course but say this is so unlike my W, they know there is something more going on here. This morning my W asked me "Are your parents angry at me?". I was honest with her and told her "From the start they have told me to make sure you know they love you. They also don't like the way you are acting right now, and I agree with them. But they do love you.".

No need to add further to other posters' comments. They were all spot on.

By the way I may not have been a perfect husband but I did NOTHING to deserve her I don't want to even try attitude. For 24 years I hear nothing but marriage is forever, I'll never put my kids thru that until she changes her mind overnight? 12 weeks after I got a vasectomy only because she swore she had no thoughts of leaving? Sorry cat, I'm sure I have things about myself that can be improved but I have been an excellent husband and father and did nothing to force her into changing every value she swore she had.

No one here was too eager to sign up for this...I highly doubt that we volunteered for this highly coveted 'assignment.' The last part made me wince a bit as it sounded like you're TOOTING your horn a bit too eagerly as an excellent husband and father. Take a long and hard look at your qualities, values, behaviors and habits. I am sure there's some that you can change for the better, improve in particular areas, and discard the rest that are not helpful.

Me? I know that I can be very headstrong and stubborn. I have worked very hard to be self-aware of this trait and rein it back. I also know that I can be borderline OCD when it comes to cleaniness and order/structure at home. I've learned to relax some more by letting go of the need to "control" my environment and surroundings. Yeah...I have mellowed over the last few years and like the "new" me.

Wanna know the secret here? DBing isn't about saving your marriage. It is about saving YOU by taking a long and hard look at yourself. Turn the Matt doll inside and out...all that gunk and grime. Then make it even prettier with some nice pink bows. Oh and a few stitches to put yourself back together.

I also do not feel my FIL is solely responsible for this. That is crazy. I believe if he would leave her alone, she would be much less likely to leave as no one else thinks its the right thing to do.

Beep, beep! Wrong answer. Wanna try the Plonko? Might have a better chance right there. Ok...I'll bite. Let's say that FIL leaves W, there'll be SOMETHING ELSE for W to latch on to work through her chit. Based on what I see here, I am fairly certain that W isn't even close to being finished with her replay stage. She's still deep into it. Right now, W is at the experimentation stage with the FOCUS on her. This is where many MLCers let all the day-to-day responsibilities fall by the wayside and just plow ahead to relieve the "itch" in their heads.

As far as detaching from her as it comes to me, I haven't asked her to do or not do anything for many months, as long as it's just her. I really expect zero from her at this point and if she wants to act up I don't let it effect me.

Really?? Could've fooled me right there. Ah...that's right...you're TOTALLY immune to W's actions, words, and behaviors. Stupid me! Pshaw!

As far as projecting about shared sacrifice, we gave up many things to get my D through school, bigger house, nicer cars, cool vacations, etc. We spoke often about how it was worth it to get her a good head start. I don't need to project, I know what she said and did over the last 13 years. She may "feel" differently now but for her to have that big a change in what she thinks is important, shows there is more going on here than a change if heart. Even after the cereamony on Sunday she said she was thinking about all it took to get my D there so she feels it, she just doesn't want to share this with me.

Martyr...martyr...

I do understand what you are saying and because I'm new to this forum, many think I am new to dealing with my W's MLC but that isn't the case.

Yes, you are NEW to dealing with your W's MLC because you're just starting to understand that it is NOT all about you. Previously, I am sure you've said or did things to W that MOST probably come across as judgmental, controlling, and devaluing. Back then, you were just simply coping and flying by the seat of your pants in pitch black. Now, you're JUST learning how to deal with your MLCer W because the vets here are sharing their war stories here with some nuggets of wisdom based on experience with DBing. A big difference.

Yes, I now am thinking she does need to go or she will never stop thinking it was THE answer. Just how to do it with the least harm to all involved, especially the kids is the hard part.

Set her free. Tell her, "W, I can see that it is important to you to connect with FIL and you're free to go down to visit with him or move there. However, our Ds and I will stay here. It is my hope that you do find your own happiness."

I swear there is an epidemic of MLC going around!

Nope. This simply means you're more aware of the MLC process because of this forum. To borrow uRWorthy's phrase, it is like seeing dead people.

By the way, some of my best friends are women.....

What's it with you men here when a woman poster points things/stuff out to the male posters, they backtrack with this backhand comment??! Highly amusing.

I'm not convinced Matt is understanding any of our posts. He seems to keep posting his same thoughts over and over... him as the victim in all this.

I concur. Not quite there yet, Matt. Keep on digging deep until you hit the Great Wall.

Matt, I kid you not...this is really the DB school of hard knocks. Read, learn, LISTEN, pray, puke and repeat! You'll be just fine, buddy.

T2, ya...I am waayyy smarter than you because I have the luxe t-shirt that says "MLC University"! Pllffffft!

Oh and your so called "socio-athropological research" translates as this:

Monkey see, monkey do

Right?!

[cat04]

By the way, some of my best friends are women.....

What's it with you men here when a woman poster points things/stuff out to the male posters, they backtrack with this backhand comment??! Highly amusing.

Wonka,

I have noticed this as well.

Personally, I believe it is a way for men to try to show women that they are wonderful and not an ogre and don't think less of someone because of their sex.

And usually, I see it happen when a man is being sexist.

JMO.

[Matt165]

Wow, cat, now I'm sexist as well? You know I didn't know whether you were a man or a woman until you pointed it out when you felt I was being condescending. Hey, maybe you're right, I should take the fact that you're a woman and may be offended more easily into consideration.....THAT would be sexist. Oh, and I am an awful ogre who thinks all women should be quiet and just look pretty, all us guys here at the trailer park and in my gun club agree.
JMO (Can't wait to see this quote in a black box soon!)

I have tried to tell you that I am sorry if I offended you in any way. You don't know me, you don't know much about me at all and I find the fact that you want to make broad assumptions about me CONDESCENDING. I didn't knowingly try to offend you or even say the first thing about the kind of person you are in any way. You are now calling me sexist and think by adding JMO that makes it OK? Believe me when I say I have NO need to show anyone how "wonderful" I am nor was it my intention to try, you may want to rethink that belief at least in my case. Wow, now who owes whom an apology?

And Wonka, while I appreciate your well thought out responses and the fact that, as someone who has been through their own MLC, you have some very good insights. I don't mind that you sometimes can be a bit harsh in your responses, we're all adults here, right? I don't appreciate your "highly amusing" observations about my "backhanded" comment that had nothing to do with anything cat "pointed out" but everything to do with the fact that she felt offended by my response. I have re-read my response and wonder, if cat was a man, would you find anything I said "offensive"? That "backhanded" comment wouldn't have been made if she hadn't pointed out she was a woman. In fact since I had no idea whether cat was a man or woman until she pointed it out it's impossible for me to have responded in a "sexist" manner. If cat had said "Do you always......to Martians" I would have said "...some of my best friends are Martians...". You seem to really like making broad generalizations about the "men here" and how they feel about women!(Oh, did I just make a generalization about you based on a single post?) Of course, the fact that I'm offended by being called sexist isn't relevant since I'm not a woman and I'm just another male LBS who just doesn't "get it" yet so it's OK to call me whatever you like, right?

You guys really put me in my place! I'll go crawl back under the rock you must think I live under now that you got me pegged as a condescending, sexist ogre! Can we cut these personal attacks out now? You want to point out where you think I'm making mistakes in my sitch? That's great and I thank you for your thoughts and opinions. The other bits about my motives or opinions about women, not so much.

[Wonka]

Matt,

You're feeling really STUNG here, aren't you? Why are you feeling this way?

[Mach1]

Can we cut these personal attacks out now? You want to point out where you think I'm making mistakes in my sitch? That's great and I thank you for your thoughts and opinions. The other bits about my motives or opinions about women, not so much.

They are Matt....

And

Wow, now who owes whom an apology?

First of all..

Nobody asked for, nor expected an apology from you...

Secondly ..

After that tirade ???

That would still be you....

Is that the same kind of treatment that you said your wife complained about ???