Barrybran - Yet Another Thread

[Mach1]

I have to vent here. It's incredibly frustrating that I have to accept that my wife is so stubborn that she'd rather live with animosity than to get on the same page and make our day-to-day lives easier by fixing our communication. I'm no angel, this process has highlighted that, but it is completely absurd to me that someone is willing to sabotage their own lives under the guise of independence. The marriage is done, ok. She wants her own life, ok. We have a house to run and kids to take care of. Making those things harder by not being willing to try communicating effectively... not ok.

I've thought recently whether it would be beneficial to say to her to just pack up and go. I know deep down things are better with her around. But this stubbornness is ridiculous and it affects everyone.

I wrote what I wrote to stand up for myself. To say "hey, your behaviour is not acceptable." Again, I have my part in this but I can't stand back and just work on myself and expect communcation to improve without working on it. Communication is a two-way street and I expect it to improve. I feel that it will become a boundary for me at some point. Something along the lines of "I tried to communicate, you weren't cooperating so I've made this decision without you." In a nutshell, what you just said Mach. Honestly though, it's not me. I'm a nice person, despite my errors and flaws, and I firmly believe the right thing to do is to work together to ensure the kids and the house are looked after. It doesn't make any sense to me to act in an "I'm not going to work with you" manner.

As I said, I had to vent. It's frustrating and as much as I can accept that my marriage as it is is over, I can not accept her attitude towards day-to-day communication as acceptable.

I completely understand Barry....

And I wish that I could say that it will get better, more satisfying, more fulfilling in the immediate future...

Yet I can't say that to you....

Understand that the more complete that YOU become, the more that she is going to pull away from you....

The better that YOU communicate, the worse that she will want to communicate....

Think of it this way...

You admit that you were somewhat of an asshat for several years....yes ???

How many years did SHE carry the brunt of the marriage ???


There is an angry fire brewing inside of her now, that gets fed by the things that you do differently, and better.

Your better choices get magnified ten-fold...

And ALL of the anger HAS to come out of her, before there is ANY chance of things changing....

The better you are, the more that she thinks "why did Barry wait until it came to this, to change"....

The worse that you do, the more that she can say..." Look, Barry is still an asshat"...

And that will justify her decision to leave the marriage...

Which way would you rather that anger to come out ????



That is why I say, that you need to take these steps, and make these changes for YOU, and YOU alone....

Either way this ends, YOU will be a better person for it...

And THAT ^^^ is what gives you the BEST chance for the future.....

Yet for now, maybe it is your turn to carry the brunt....

[ericmsant2]

Barry

I had a go at defining each quality. I did this relatively quickly but I did it when I was calm and relaxed and on my own rather than trying to force answers.

Reliable
- To me, someone who is reliable would be someone I can call upon to help me with things. They may not always be available but I know that when they aren’t, they have a genuine reason and they will endeavour to be available in the future.

Good listener
- I feel a good listener is someone who makes eye contact, doesn’t look around the room and isn’t doing anything distracting such as fiddling with their fingers or playing with their phone. I feel that when someone is listening to you, you have a connection with them.

Good communicator
- A good communicator to me is someone who is clear and concise, polite, uses the appropriate volume and tone of voice for the situation and most importantly, knows what they want to say.

Faithful
- Someone who is faithful, to me, is someone who doesn’t cheat on someone important to them: a spouse, a friend, a family member.

Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.

Trustworthy
- Someone who deserves the trust of another person. They can give their word to someone, is believed and their actions support their words.

Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.

Loyal
- Someone who is loyal is someone who fights for and defends their friends and family and remains faithful to them.

Calm
- I feel that someone who is calm is someone who does not allow themselves to be easily excited or aroused in a stressful situation and can exercise patience where required.

Do YOUR actions live up to YOUR own descriptions of these qualities? If not, then you’ve found the areas of work that you need to focus on.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want to improve the communication with my wife.

Remove the reference …..”with my wife” and replace it with “for myself, so that I am a great communicator”.

At the very least we are living in the same house and parents to the same kids.

In the perfect world…I would agree that since you are living in the same house that the communication could improve. Only problem is 1) you are not in the perfect world and 2) until she decides she wants to communicate and improve communicate, you will be doing this solo. Hence, why we keep saying that the changes you need to make are for YOU and YOU alone. Right NOW – YOU are working on you in the hopes that you can some how rekindle the R with your W. She is NOT. TO expect her to communicate, to work on herself and the M is an expectation that will leave you frustrated.

I don't expect her to change but I feel I need to express my frustration to her so she knows where I stand and can make her own decision whether to take my feelings on board or disregard them.

Read what you wrote again…. Here is how I read it…..

I don’t expect her to change…but I am gonna try and somehow convince her to. I will do that by TELLING HER how I feel, what I want HER to do. If she does not listen, I will TELL HER how FUSTRATED I AM WITH HER ACTIONS. Then if she stills says she does not give a chit, I guilt her by telling her she is disregarding my feelings.

STOP trying to talk to HER about YOUR needs.

Your ACTIONS should speak for YOU. And guess what? Nothing you do or say is going to change HER actions UNTIL she decides she wants them to change. That is not to say, that your R has no hope. Nope. Just that I would not have an EXPECTATION that she is going to want to work on the M based on things YOU “tell her” albeit verbally or in writing. Actions Barry.. Actions.

I'm going to start making decisions without her so I know what's going on

This ^^^^ is one of the BEST things I have seen you write!

I'm not spending another 40-50 years in a marriage with poor communication, another 15 years as a co-parent with poor communication or another 3-12 months as a housemate with poor communication, whatever the case may be.

First off, YOU say when it is OVER – not her. Secondly, you just may have to spend another 15 years co-parenting with someone who is a poor communicator. What are you going to do if she never changes? Stop seeing the kids? Seriously Barry, you need to stop looking at HER and start looking ONLY at YOU.

So I see you sent the letter and she responded.

You pushed and she pushed back!

And now that she has pushed back and from where I sit…made things really clear….. Now your angry.

that I have to accept that my wife is so stubborn that she'd rather live with animosity than to get on the same page and make our day-to-day lives easier by fixing our communication.

“I have to accept”….sounds a little victimish if ya ask me. You do not have to accept it Barry. You are choosing to. Own it.

I'm no angel, this process has highlighted that, but it is completely absurd to me that someone is willing to sabotage their own lives under the guise of independence.

“BUT”…so you admit that you are no angel and then discount it by using “but”. It may be absurd to YOU …it is NOT to HER. She is not sabotaging her life..she is living it. When are YOU going to start living YOURS?

Making those things harder by not being willing to try communicating effectively... not ok.

She did communicate Barry. Just not what YOU wanted to hear. And FTR, who defines “effectively”? You? Her?

Bottom line, you and her Barry are in two different places right now. That does not mean you cannot get back on the same path. You may, you may not. Right now though…you need to worry about YOUR path. Right now, YOU need to focus on YOU and the kids. Let her go.

Communication is a two-way street and I expect it to improve

Whew…”expect” it in big bold letters! Wow. I believe that YOU should expect NOTHING from her. You should EXPECT that YOU will do what YOU need to do. You should EXPECT from yourself that YOU will live the traits of the man you choose to be REGARDLESS of what she does. EXPECTING HER to be a part of improving the communication. Hmmmm….let me ask you a question Barry.

How long did she tolerate your chit?

How long did Barry not know how to communicate?

How long did she Barry try and keep the M going?


Barry, you are pissed off. You still want Mrs Barry to do what YOU want. It ain’t happening – at least not now.

So Barry….remember when you got married?


Do you remember those vows?

Look buddy, only YOU can decide what you want to do going forward.

From where I sit you can….

Option 1 – stay pissed off, continue to be a victim, keep looking at her hoping that she just may change and be miserable

Or

Option 2 – focus on yourself, change the chit about yourself that you do not like, have a plan on where YOU are going in your life (with or without your W), try and be the best dad you can be, live life to the fullest.


Me – I’d vote option 1 but then again I am not you.

[Mach1]

Option 1 – stay pissed off, continue to be a victim, keep looking at her hoping that she just may change and be miserable

Or

Option 2 – focus on yourself, change the chit about yourself that you do not like, have a plan on where YOU are going in your life (with or without your W), try and be the best dad you can be, live life to the fullest.

Me – I’d vote option 1 but then again I am not you.

Option 1 ???

Really ???

Or is that Rican math again....

: )

[ericmsant2]

LOL...

Sorry typo....I meant Option 2.

Obviously I have communication problems

[Barrybran]

I appreciate everyone's feedback. If I was talking to anyone else, I'd continue to ask questions until I was satisfied that I understand the situation. My wife is the only person who resists this and yet she's the person who's opinion I have to consider the most because of the house and kids.

At the core of what I wrote to her was standing up for myself, not saving my marriage. Am I supposed to be standing up for myself or just staying out of her way?

Also, her response to me was fantastic. It was very clear and there is no confusion. That's the kind of communication I'm looking for.

[ericmsant2]

At the core of what I wrote to her was standing up for myself, not saving my marriage. Am I supposed to be standing up for myself or just staying out of her way?

Part of me feels like you were doing more than standing up for yourself. Maybe that is just how I interpreted it.

To answer your question specifically, IMO, you do both. You stay out of her way (mostly because YOU should be living YOUR life) AND you stand up for yourself.

[Barrybran]

That's confusing. I want my wife here at home and I want things to improve between us. I don't think I should have to deal with confusion and arguments in my day-to-day life because she is choosing to stay this time and is unwilling to communicate effectively. I've tried to adopt a mindset of what I'd do if we were living in separate houses. I won't put up with poor communication if we were in different houses or divorced; I would go it alone and make my own decisions and let her deal with the consequences.

All things considered, I feel good about how this has turned out. despite my wife being more pissed off with me. My wife has finally created the cleaning/cooking roster she spoke of two months ago and I'm happy with that. I don't know what is too much housework or not enough housework. If I'm supposed to do something on Tuesday and I don't, then I deserve to get my bum kicked. If I hold up my end then she has no right to complain.

She also changed her name back to her maiden name on Facebook. Safe to say I'll be getting a few messages from friends and family today. I apologise to friends and family in advance (figuratively) for my non-response.

I just got this too:

What you have in front of you is a quick mock up of a roster of sorts. Obviously dependant on work hours etc. If there is something I've missed note it down and we can discuss it. Yes I am still very very very very much pissed iff at you for last week's transgression. It cemented to ne I cannot trust you and that you think this is all a joke to be laughed about.

I am the only one actually going about my business trying to make my own life and balance of kids. You still seem to be dependent on my opinion or what not in relation to your actions (outside that of our issues). Make your own decisions. If it's about the kids/household that's a discussion we both need to have. If it's about your personal life, thats your department. But if it's anything to do with issues between us, then that certainly is most definitely between us and only us. It's not something to be discussed or laughed about with your boss or complete strangers. Go find yourself. Because you won't find the answers with me.

I'm finally feeling more like me. The me that I seem to have lost along the way. I can and will stand up for myself and the kids.
I kept the marriage going for months and months thinking I could nake things better. But no. In the end I needed to stand up to you and see what I was doing was trying to carry your [censored] and my [censored] together and in the end I could not bear it anymore. It's up To you to work on Yourself. I've told you the things that you've said and done to make this marriage end.

I know my issues are partly to blame. I take ownership of that and that's exactly what I am doing now. I am fixing me. I am fixing myself so I do not ever make the same mistakes I have made in our marriage and in my life for any future I may have. Do the same.

I cannot be friends with you right now because I am carrying a lot of hatred towards you. Until I can let that go please stop looking to me for anything else other than co-parenting.

[ericmsant2]

I want my wife here at home and I want things to improve between us.

I want to hit the lotto and see unicorns – that is what I. I am entitled to want what I want. Question…based on what I want…how much of that could I control?

I don't think I should have to deal with confusion and arguments in my day-to-day life because she is choosing to stay this time and is unwilling to communicate effectively.

No you should not Barry. Why are you then? Is she forcing you to deal with her? Once again, what can you control?

I won't put up with poor communication if we were in different houses or divorced; I would go it alone and make my own decisions and let her deal with the consequences.

“I will not put up with poor communication” – I get that…ummmm…how does this align with the traits that YOU defined….

Patient
- I feel someone who is patient is someone who can ride through a lot of nonsense and respond to a situation calmly, articulately, sensitively and fairly.

Do you think YOU forcing HER to learn how to communicate on YOUR TERMS in YOUR timeline is patient?

Fair
- Someone who weighs up a situation and delivers an outcome that is beneficial to all parties while achieving specific goals.

Do you think that now that YOU have learned some better communication habits that it is FAIR to her to be sooo….umm….quick to tell her that she needs to communicate better? Is that fair?

For the record, I am not saying you are wrong for standing up for yourself. I just find that the way you go about doing it, may not yield the results that you are really looking for. I feel like some of your responses are driven more by anger than by love.

That said, I am not living it like you are.

My advice is always to keep your comments short and to the point.

As for her letter….you tell me what you think it says and why?

[Barrybran]

I can see how it comes off as controlling and impatient. This is something that I've sat on for 3.5 years and now that I've had the balls to say something, I've rushed in like a bull at a gate.

This is what else my wife had to say this morning:

Validation of choices. It's like you need approval to cook dinner, or organise [the babysitter] etc. If you know that it has to happen take ownership and make the decision. If you're not happy with decisions I make about the kids, tell me. Don't wander about the house sulking and do not text me days after the fact. Call me or have the balls to talk to me face to face.
Only reason I have messaged today is because the kids were around this morning and I was trying to go to work.
Grow some balls and be a man because to me the entire time we had been together I now see that I definitely wore the pants and that you were just fluffing along.
No one wants a doormat. And I am guilty of letting it go on for so long. I too am guilty of being a doormat. A doormat to how you spoke to me and how you treated me.
I myself have grown balls and stopped the marriage. That took great balls because I could still be severely unhappy and holding more resentment towards you than I do now.

...and...

This co-habitating and co-parenting will only succeed if we both take ownership of [censored] going on.
Atm I feel as though it's not going to even last 3 months and it's quite possible we will have separate households. May be that's the only way to have some clear definition and distance.

My interpretation of her words is that she's done for now, she's working on herself and she's urging me to do the same. I honestly don't read it as "I'm done. Goodbye." I read it as "grow up, get your chit together and maybe we'll have a chance. Until you do though, I'm not interested."

I asked her a while later if she felt listened to this morning. Her response was as follows:

Asking that is another way of gaining validation for yourself.

I get it. She's not on my team right now. I don't know how I come across to people and I'm trying my hardest to find that out and fix it. To me, it's like being given a maths problem, getting the answer wrong, asking for feedback and the teacher saying "you need to figure it out for yourself" without providing any guidance. I don't give my son the answer when he gets something wrong but I do ask him questions to help him find the answer himself. Does any of that make sense? If I have a problem with how I express myself, aren't I the worst judge for determining how well (or poorly) my communication is developing?

[Lostforwords]

Barry,

The guys are giving it to you....and hopefully you are listening.

As for the last few notes from your wife....Haven't you been being told the exact same stuff by us for the last three months? You mention that you are listening and hearing better, but I disagree. In the situation you are in good listening and hearing will transcend into action....You are not acting and not changing. You are assuming and expecting change and improvement on her part.....and as the boys will tell you....There is no room in life for assumptions or expectations.

You use the word "improve" a lot in regards to your relationship with your wife....To me improve means to better something that already exists. The truth is that your old relationship with her is dead...Your marriage is dead...gone finished. This is something that at this point YOU should be pleased about truthfully. You should be wanting to create a new future and present, not improving a broken past.

Improve the things you control which is only you....By changing, your world changes and your perception becomes different. By changing your world, You change the world around you as peoples perception of your world changes.