Thanks Sandi I didn't pressure her to do this and in fact I fully expected her to decline when I asked her. She agreed but made it clear that it was as friends. I should add that we have to try and do this as we have a family holiday to visit my sister abroad coming up in a few months that has been planned and paid for from way before this started. She really wants to go and our eldest ( mildly autistic) has stated he wants his mummy there. We couldn't go together if we are still at the place we are now. I was hoping she would have come out of her fog by then ( she is acting like a complete stranger) but she shows few signs of that right now so we have to see if its possible for us to be in eachothers company to gauge whether or not this trip can work. I am prepared to go alone with the boys if needs be but it breaks my heart as it was supposed to be our dream holiday, we didn't go on holiday last year to save for it and its horrible to contemplate going without her. I thought that if we tried to get on then we might have a chance, but I know if she starts seeing someone between now and then it would destroy me and bring us back to square one. I just need to know how to proceed from here on in. I have ordered The Divorce Remedy so will start reading it when it arrives. But any other insights would be welcome.
I suppose i will be the downer here and tell you that you are setting yourself Up for a big disappointment over this holiday trip. It will not be your dream vacation if you go anywhere with a WAW.
Realistically, she probably will not be out of fog in a few months. And when she does come through it, she may not wish to reconcile. Getting through the fog doesn't fix the M. Her fantasies will colaspe (and usually followed by depression) but eventually will be able to start thinking more realistically, so that part really does help. But is just a step in the direction to heal the M. There usually is a need for a good pro-marriage counselor to guide the couple in reconciliation. But don't try MC until she is ready to work on the M. Otherwise, it often does more harm than good.
What I have seen over & over again here on the boards are LBH'S too eager in getting their WAW back again. He thinks everything will fall back in place and resume as normal. He is so disparate and in such a hurry that he takes her back waaaaaay too soon. I have seen where they may spend one night and be out the door again, saying it was a mistake.
This will take so much longer than you ever thought. B/c it isn't a simple matter......as most LBH'S seem to think. It is very complicated for her and she will have a lot of issues to work through by herself (and maybe with a therapist) before she is ready to work with you on the M.
DBing is a work that will seem completely opposite of what you "think" you should be doing at times. You can't operate from emotions. You need a plan. You need to set some personal goals to work on you as a man. Not to impress her. Not as a tactic to get her back. Most of what we will tell you will be for you.....b/c you are the one here. So working on yourself.....for you......will elevate your self esteem, therefore projecting a better person.
You need to get legal advice to see where you stand, your rights as a father, and financial security. Protect you and your kids by securing your property and finances. You may not think it is necessary, but this is not the girl you married. She is different right now, and it could last a few years.
Below are some tips about what to do and don't do. You may need to adjust it to fit your individual stitch.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude. 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes _________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So do you think I should just plan to go alone with the boys then? It is so hard to imagine going without her but I suppose it would be really difficult going with her as she is now. I am trying to work on myself. I had already joined a gym last October and have lost over 40lbs since then as I have really thrown myself into getting fit and eating healthily. I have almost full-time responsibility for the boys as this seems to have affected her desire to be a mother also and she will only have them over-night on alternate Saturdays. She really isn't the girl I married in fact I barely recognise her from the person she was last November just before this started. She is acting like a teenager and seems oblivious to my pain and to how hard it is for me assuming fulltime childcare responsiblities as well as working fulltime at my demanding job. It is just baffling and I wish I could understand where my beautiful loving wife has gone. I know all I can control is myself so I will try to do that but I am emotionally drained and very tired all of the time. I just worry about making bad decisions and choices as I want to follow the best path in all of this even though I realise she may well be gone for good.
I agree that you should have zero expectations about this trip. For you, it will be no better having her there as she (and your M) is now, than it would be to go without her. You have some time so see how it feels when it gets closer. I would say, however, that I think it would be great for your boys, if you and W can manage to get along well enough.
I went on a previously planned trip with my H and kids and another family six days after BD. It was painful. It would also have been painful to go without H. But my kids got a family vacation - the last one they will ever have - with both parents. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of that.
Just throwing in my two cents.
me: 44 XH: 42 M 11 years D10 and S8 Bomb drop 9/27/13 D final 7/1/14
I would not discuss and make plans with her. Take it slowly. She said she wanted be to out on her own, so that is what she should experience. Why should she be given the vacation of a lifetime if she has left you and living separately? Unless she has contributed financially upfront for the trip, in which you could offer her money back. Play it by ear for a while.
But as Melissa said, if by then you feel the two of you could get along well enough, then choose whatever you think best. I believe she will "expect" to go.....b/c WAW's cake eat! They want to participate in family events whenever it suits them, but if the LBH gives her too much attention, then she accuses him of pressuring.
Start now, in everything concerning her, having no expectations. Make it a practice, or you will constantly be let down.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Ok so we have had our night together. As suspected we were unable to avoid the talk about us and our trip etc. I told her that we couldn't go together the way things are and she agreed so it looks like I will be going with the boys on our own. She has asked however that I not tell either the boys or my sister until closer to the time. She also reconfirmed her position that our marriage is over and that she is 99% sure there is no way back, what that 1% means I have no idea but she has started to drag some issues fron the past up as some sort of excuse for what she has done, almost to tyr and excuse it and validate her affair and blame me for the marriage breakdown. This really annoys me as I have never claimed to be perfect but the past few years have been good and she at least should recognise that.
she has started to drag some issues fron the past up as some sort of excuse for what she has done, almost to tyr and excuse it and validate her affair and blame me for the marriage breakdown.
Exactly. Very common for the WAW in an A.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Ok so we spent most of today together as it was mothers day. I had bought her flowers and chocolates( for the boys to give her) and we went out for dinner. Although the day went well in terms of no relationship talk it did get difficult just before she left. I am going away on a business trip from tomorrow for 4 days and she will have the boys. Bear in mind that this is the first time for weeks that she will have them overnight, especially for this length of time. I have suggested to her that she stays here rather than take the boys to hers. Their school is 5 minutes walk from here and they are settled at home now ( especially my eldest S9) I didn't think she would agree but she has, she went on today saying that the neighbours ( one nosey one in particular) would be thinking she was back as she will be here. So based on her agreement to stay here and the fact that I will be away I felt we should just agree some basic rules regarding how the children are handled. I have been working hard for weeks to establish boundaries with the boys and some disciplines etc regarding acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. I truly believe and my W agrees that we have been to soft and laid back as parents, me much more so than her. So I have managed to establish some rules that the boys are getting used to and are responding to. Its a slow process but it is beginning to work. I wanted to ensure that this continues while I am gone and we had a conversation about the structure etc today. But for some reason after it things went a little pear shaped. I can't even recall what she said but it really annoyed me considering the effort I had put in to make her Mothers Day special and I told her so. I told her it was unacceptable for her to act disrespectful towards me considering all I had done and that I wouldn't be doing anything more. A mistake I'm sure but things got a bit uncomfortable for a while before it calmed down. She did thank me as she was leaving saying ' I was going to thankyou when I was going anyway' I am still confused as to what she means by 99% sure about our marriage being over and it is bugging me, what does that mean??
She is holding on to one percent for her "if all else fails" plan. Yes, the WAW who is in an A will use her H as her back-up plan if the A doesn't work out......or if she can't make it on her own. It also a way she keeps her hook in you. Telling you she was 99% certain.......gave you that tiny 1% hope. It was her way of leaving the back door unlocked if she decided to come back.
And, it certainly worked! She planted a 1% seed, and you are going to grow it into more than what it is. B/c that's all you can think about.......and you keep wondering why didn't she say 100%......and does it mean she is having second thoughts. No, it means she is looking out for herself....regardless of what it does to you.
If men would see how women work them, and start calling the shots instead of waiting around to see if she ends her A and goes back to him...........she would stop jerking the H around.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I said to her last night that I was moving on with my life and focusing on myself and the boys from now on. But I suppose I did also say that if at some point in the future she wanted to talk to me she could.She just said she was glad that I was doing that as its what she wants me to do. I know its weak and exactly the opposite of what I should be doing but I am still struggling to accept that this may be it. I am still married to her in my head and it has all happened so quickly, I suppose i'm punch drunk.
