living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (2)

[unbidden]

Dude, why the focus on the bed? I mean, I know why but she's messing with every aspect of the marriage, not just the bed part. The focus on the bed made me feel weird when I read it. JMO.

[Tarheel]

Zew, I go back to something Sandi mentioned earlier in your thread..

'The WAW in an A needs to realize she has lost something valuable. It won't be the same to everyone. You may never know what "it" is to your W.'

'It' could be your bed, could be friendship, could be the realization that the M could be over when they see we've filed. I think both of us (and many others on here) have been looking for some great idea that will snap our WAW's back to earth and make them come to their senses, but I don't know that 'it' exists in all cases. Maybe all we can do is to stand up for ourselves when the opportunity presents itself, state our boundaries, continue to GAL and continue to be patient.

[Scorp7]

I too have always been an introspective guy, and a bit of a wordsmith. And I liked to think that if I could just put the riiiiight words together, in juuuust the right way . . . then my wife would see the error of her walls, re-fall madly back in love with me, end her foolishness and return to the marriage.

WORDS will have NO EFFECT on her in her current state, bro. At BEST you can land a little "truth dart" or two every week or two. That's it. You can't teach a wayward!!!

This seems to be a very common thing for the LBS. I was the EXACT same way and I still have thoughts pop into my head from time to time that if I can only say just the right words to my W that she will change her mind and give me a shot.

I really don't think there is ANYTHING you can SAY that will change the WAS's mind.

There was a quote I heard recently that goes something like "you can't talk yourself out of a situation you behaved yourself into". Your consistent actions will speak much louder than any words you can say or write.

[zew]

and keep in mind, eventually it WILL, regardless of what self-imposed time limit you give yourself -- you won't be able to control how fast her deceit and lack of respect for you and your marriage will erode your love for her

I know this to be true.

For now, I can still rationalize it as "her sickness", and "a phase", etc. (not in any way to minimize my part in this)
But with each passing week I wonder how on earth someone of her faith can live such a lie.
And I wonder more and more how I much I can trust someone who can be so deceptive and disrespectful for such an extended period of time.

It will take a real commitment on her part. As I told her a couple of months ago, we're both very strong people and can work this out if we choose to.

But I don't have to worry about that now. That's a challenge for another day, with any luck.

[Starsky309]

Zew,

fwiw, I too -- on these very forums -- was being warned that I was coming across as "holier-than-thou" when I thought all I was doing was standing up for fidelity in my marriage.

I fought those people at first, but eventually -- since several people or different DBing philosophies all seemed to be pointing it out -- I figured it:

a) must really be something I need to work on; and

b) was probably coming across -- big-time -- to my wife.

So I made a conscious effort.

I found that when I focused just on fidelity, I got very smug: "Hey, I've been faithful, but SHE HASN'T!" But when I thought of it from the Biblical perspective of "all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God" . . . or to look at it secularly, "we all have stuff we're knuckleheads at!" . . . it helped.

In other words, there were areas of my life that were nearly as screwed up as the fidelity part of my wife's life. And so I remembered that, and it humbled me.

Maybe that helps some.


Starsky

[zew]

Well I started the new thread this morning because I knew this would draw a lot of comments.
Five of you came back in no time and said "Stop the insanity."
Thank you, everyone. I need this to stay upright.

Your posts above use the phrase "without judgment" several times, and yet it is judgment that is just OOOOOZING from every pore of those two posts.

Yep. I definitely have an ingrained sense of what I believe to be right/wrong and it shows. Gotta work on that one for sure. Don't mind you pointing it out.

You're looking at this all wrong, Zew. It's not your job to make her "face consequences." That's for the Big Guy upstairs.

Yep, I know it's not my job to punish. Was looking for anything that might make her realize a loss, short of D.

Your "credible threat" rings true.
W gets very concerned when she sees me happy, especially after coming home from a night of GALing. Actually heard her say once "He's happy, and that scares me." Looks like GALing works for both me and W, then.

figure out what your non-negotiable core boundaries are, communicate them, and then leave her be.

Like, sharing you with another man doesn't work for me?

Dude, why the focus on the bed? I mean, I know why but she's messing with every aspect of the marriage, not just the bed part. The focus on the bed made me feel weird when I read it. JMO.

It's nothing about the bed per se. Again, just looking for anything that she might feel a sense of loss over, and bed is something I could assert territory over. Remember, she lives at home as if everything is normal. She denies A, and therefore A does not exist.

I really don't think there is ANYTHING you can SAY that will change the WAS's mind.

There was a quote I heard recently that goes something like "you can't talk yourself out of a situation you behaved yourself into". Your consistent actions will speak much louder than any words you can say or write.

True, true and true. The intent was not to convince her with words, but that the loss of the bed might mean something. The words just establish the way back. Bad idea. Got it.

was being warned that I was coming across as "holier-than-thou" when I thought all I was doing was standing up for fidelity in my marriage
...
"Hey, I've been faithful, but SHE HASN'T!"

Yes, point taken.
Funny isn't it, especially since I very early came to the conclusion that it wasn't a deal breaker.
I can't be judgmental there, it's now part of the fabric of my M forever. I also know that W will resist MC if she has to admit A. I have to wrap my head around the fact that she may never be willing to talk about or admit A, even though we both know that we both know. So I'd better get off that horse now. My we make life complicated.

Again, I want to thank you all for your prompt and excellent support. I truly appreciate it.

[sandi2]

Why do feel the loss of the bed might mean something to her? What do think it would mean?

I should have looked back on your posts, but are you and W having sex?

I believe the WAW in an A has to see something she has lost or is losing due to her behavior/choices. Just as you can't do a lot of other things, you probably won't be able to force .......or maybe not even know what "it" is she doesn't want to lose. You may have some idea, but i doubt she has been faced with "it" yet. The best thing you can do is live by your personal belief system, keeping your boundaries in tack, limit the cake eating (which is tough when living in same house with kids), and holding the line with her showing you respect while at home and in front of your children. I could suggest more "don'ts" than tell what to do. And this certainly isn't everything, but pretty general.

It is like making self improvements. If you are doing them to impress your W, it will be in vain. If you try to pick things that may be the "it" your W doesn't want to lose, or may shake her out of the A........there's a good chance you'll miss the mark. Everyone is different. But if you live out of the convictions of your heart, it will help you know what boundary lines to draw.

I think one of the worst things a man can do is act afraid of his W. Fear of her leaving him paralyzes the very male characteristics in him that she needs to witness. I suppose that is why I get a little riled when men think that DBing is rolling over playing dead. It is not becoming a door mat or being passive.

I also believe the H's "message" to the WAW should be consistent. As has already been stated, you waste your breath trying to talk to WAW who is in an A. The only way she hears what you are saying....is with her eyes watching what you do. Your attitudes and actions dictate the message loud and clear to her. No need to remind her of what she already knows........like how seriously you took wedding vows, etc. No need to give speeches packed with moral or spiritual messages. You can't verbally reason with her.

But before you do anything, think it over and do what you are doing now.......which is discussing it here. You see, only a few days ago you were talking about just waiting around a couple of yrs to see if the A fizzled out, and how you couldn't do anything about it. Today you are wanting to ask her to move out of the bedroom. So be careful about sudden choices......and don't shoot yourself in the foot.

[zew]

Why do feel the loss of the bed might mean something to her? What do think it would mean?

We pretty much behave as if everything were normal. She has wild mood swings from icy to normal with both me and kids. She is 90% focused on her new job now, and everything else is kind of an afterthought. She denies A, so there is no A. She sleeps in bed as if everything were normal. She slept in guest room one night after an A confrontation. By morning, she was back in our bed. It must mean something to her, she could move any time if she wanted distance from me. It's likely just show for the kids, but I'm not itching to pull the kids into this either. If she lost bed, it would be a constant reminder that things are not normal. I don't know how much that is worth. Again, the bed idea was largely because it is constant, visible and could be done.

are you and W having sex?

Not since Christmas, I have no interest in seconds. Also a non-verbal statement of rejection on my part, although she is happy I haven't initiated. I'd speculate that if I did initiate, she'd go along with it because "everything is normal". But it would be horrible sex that I have no appetite for.

limit the cake eating (which is tough when living in same house with kids)

I am at a complete loss as to how it could be possible.

and holding the line with her showing you respect while at home and in front of your children.

I called her on a snark she made in front of D12 last weekend. I won't tolerate that.

I think one of the worst things a man can do is act afraid of his W.

I know I'm not afraid of her. I don't fear her leaving; I just think we can do better than this. I have no intention of losing myself in this, either. I'm just frustrated by my limited power to actively apply myself productively.

Thanks for stopping by. I absolutely will avail myself of the good advice on this board before doing anything rash.

[unbidden]

Wow, zew, you sound so healthy all things considered. You can't be more productive because of Ws active deceit right now. It's like trying to get butter from a duck. Not your fault. Hang in there.

[zew]

On a whole other topic, W came and asked me for $40 cash this morning. I didn't say anything, I was brushing my teeth.

W has no access to cash, she puts everything on CC which I have always paid. For 13 years this wasn't a problem, or at least, she never mentioned it. If she ever asked for cash, I gave it to her.

I want to add that in a healthy M, all this money stuff should be done differently than we did it. It just sort of worked out that way when she stopped working and didn't seem to be an issue at the time. It makes her feel like a child to have to come and ask me for cash. Just one of the issues I was blind to, and that she didn't vocalize.

But after BD, she suddenly had interest in having a joint account. No way I'm establishing that now while there is a D looming. At one point, after several A confrontations, I told her that we could relook at all our financial arrangements once she committed to M and was willing to be honest with me. We'll have to do something anyway once she starts earning. Well that was the end of that topic. Clearly commitment and honesty are not forthcoming.

Anyway, I know she needs cash. She has a couple of CCs that she never told me about that she is trying to make minimum payments on. She also wants to go out with her girlfriends tonight and will need bar money.

She was in a rush and left house before I could answer. But she just texted to say I never answered.

It is so tempting to say "Go ask OM for cash." but fear not, I won't do that.

It's also tempting to say "hey, I said we could look at setting you up with access to accounts once you committed to M and started being honest", but she knows that, that's not where she is, and so I see no point in going down that path again.

There's no point in withholding $40 and turning it into a big deal. Soon enough she'll have her income and will never need to ask again. (and she's going to have to start dealing with that CC bill on her own.)

But the joint account thing is still big with her. She talks about it with her friends. Says I treat her like a child. I agree this comes off that way. Again, it's something I'd change in a heartbeat with a trustworthy W. I had offered once to set up a joint account that I put some money in. She said that missed the point. And of course, this is just a prime example of how I never loved her, and we must part...

I hate these things that could easily come off the table if the conditions were right, but will continue to be a festering sore spot as long as the conditions are wrong.